Rating alliances

[Xiphosis]

Well you must be a great member. Xiph surely taught you better.

MindVirus certainly is a great member. However, he's also a reroll of an old FA hand [which I won't name since it's irrelevant] and as with every single member of GOD is allowed their opinion. If he doesn't like our allies, that's fine. I only ask my members to be loyal/trust me. It doesn't mean they have to like my friends. I still love you though, Joe. Just don't take it so badly.

[Style #386]

I haven't seen this very often from ODN members and definitely not gov members.

I have seen several admissions in this very thread, actually.

[potato]

TOP - Heh. Plenty of good members but together you seem to $%&@ it up... 6

MHA - A good alliance but with some odd choices now and then. 6

Sparta - I didn't like you when you formed. I was positive you'd crumble as soon as the "300!" hype died. You kept it up but you pretty much have nothing to account for. 5

NpO - Always loved you. Would probably be a Polar if it wasn't for Archon having tied me down in his room. 9

IRON - Never been really impressed by you folks. 4

ODN - My first home, the alliance that taught me a lot. I made a lot of friends there. But you're still too PG for me. 8

FARK - Funny but absent... Your blitz on 'RON was impressive. 5

GPA - Useless neutral. 0

NPO - I have immense respect for the way you played the game. Not so much for how you treat other people. 3

FOK - I'm not a fan of language/country based alliances but you guys have proved you're pretty awesome. 8

MK - Home. 10

WTF - Useless neutral. 0

TOOL - May as well be neutral. 1

TDO - Useless neutral. 0

VE - For some odd reason, I kinda like you. But not that much. 6

Legion - Legion died when you disbanded and became neo Leejun. 2

RoK - Never saw the hype surrounding Hoo (although he IS a good guy). 5

GATO - My first diplomatic post. Needs moar Kevlar. 6

CSN - Who? 2

Athens - You guys need to get back into protectorate status so we can teach you a few things. 8

Gremlins - Love love love Grämlins. 8

MCXA - Heh. You were cool at one point and I'm still not sure what happened to you. Gopher and Fresh save you. 4

UPN - The only thing you had going for you was Samo. 3

RIA - Not a big fan of you as a whole. A huge fan of Delta (yeah, I know he left). 5

STA - Tyga and pez make up for the unholly love for ... well ... Siberian Tigers. 8

Invicta - lol 3

RnR - Loved you when I was in ODN. Like you since I'm in MK. 6

MASH - Who? 2

NADC - May as well be neutral. 1

WAPA - We rolled them twice and, man, was it fun! You lost VF and pretty much disappeared from my radar. Pity. 3

NV - Awesome alliance. Except from Hizzy (who should be in MK already). 8

NSO - Tough one. I really don't know. One the hand, you're pretty awesome. On the other, you're pretty annoying. 7

NEW - Nice stats, don't like your allies and still not a fan of country based alliances. I still don't see why you're the flavour of the month alliance. 4

MA - Who? 2

Umbrella - Now we got our members back, you suck. But please keep LJ. 8

FAN - Huge respect for how you guys held it up. I'm a big fan of mpol. 7

LoSS - Who? 2

TSO - I like some of your members. Not their opinion. And certainly not how you left MCXA. 2

NATO - May as weel be neutral. 1

Nordreich - What's the saying? "If it quacks..." 0

GR - Shamedmonkey should join MK already. 8

Vanguard - If it wasn't for your gov't and your members, you'd be somewhat decent. 9

GOD - Very little interaction with you folks. 3

FoB - ARRGH! 8

PC - I'm glad AirMe and I didn't give in. You're a liability and reckless alliance. Hopefully your "new" gov't can keep turn things around. 3

Valhalla - If it wasn't for Yav and Kashy, you'd get a lower ranking. 2

GGA - Someone needs to kill the injured beast. And teach grammar to your gov't too. 2

TPF - I'm torn. On the one hand, I respect your stance during the last war. And you have (had?) some great members. On the other, I could have done without the martyr card you guys played (and still play) during Karma. No one made you a martyr but yourselves. Shut up about it. Since I can't decide, 5

Now you know why I had to step down from LHE: I hate everyone.

Edited November 13, 2009 by potato

[AlmightyGrub]

Not sure how the first sentence contradicts my stance in any way. However I'd like to highlight that Polar entered via an optional aggression clause with STA, not one of mandatory defense (STA having declared on DOOM and not the other way around).

I will admit that one difference is how the two alliance's respective alliances reacted to the fact that their treaties were considered inferior; Polar and Valhalla definitely seem to be on better terms than ODN and IRON. To be fair however, ODN still holds treaties with UPN and GGA. I believe the rift with IRON stems from more than just ODN's actions in the Karma War.

A bit of a tangent here, but how long before the war would you say you knew who would win?

Honestly, about January or February. Blind Freddy could see what was happening and only drastic action would have changed the fate, drastic action that was advised and ignored.. c'est la vie. I find it completely and totally misleading to suggest that Karma was only formed in the immediate lead up to the war and always have especially considering the logs, spreadsheets etc that were circulating months and months before.(no you can not have my copies). It amuses me to no end that those spreadsheets from early in the year turned out to basically be 100% correct, except for a few notable exception such as NpO who I saw drafted on both sides at various times.

I know I have suggested this all before and been shouted down by the ''karma leadership'' but I know what I knew and when I knew it and to suggest it was all done quickly in response to OV makes me giggle like a school girl. The final plans may have been thrown together, but the deliberate bait set for the NPO on at least two previous occasions along with the extensive pre-planning and polling made the transition to actual bloc and war fairly smooth I would have thought. The revisionists would forget how many times I was asked which side I was on and for how long. You suggest there were no sides until OV, I again giggle, what was I joining then?

In reference to our entrance to the Karma War, you will note that the DoW was not posted by me , so I wont be attempting to explain the rationale behind it. It is suffice to say however, Tyga is correct, as he more than often is in these matters. The NSO requested help defending from something or other and we did so. The fact that STA and NSO were in the same conflict makes it all quite a matter of semantics. ML declared war on us, so eventually we fought them. Our only declaration was on DOOM and the reasons thereof are inexplicable in real terms ( I will not be attempting to justify them at all in case you are terminally slow)

[Xiphosis]

RIA - Not a big fan of you as a whole. A huge fan of Delta (yeah, I know he left). 5

I hate you so much for this. So much. )):

[Don Fernando]

PC - 6 We've feuded in the past, but they're too much like us to not like them. Needs more nukes, though.

We are working on it

TOP - 7 - Alliance I would like to get to know most

MHA - 6 - Haven't talked with them enough to form a good opinion, but I do like what I see

Sparta - 6 - { 300 > CN }

NpO - 7 - Can take a beating, give one back and rebound like nobodies business

IRON - 4.5

ODN - 5 - Seem to be friendly, but never talk to them

FARK - 5

GPA - 1

NPO - 2

FOK - 8 - Buddies on orange, love um!

MK - 7 - Dont completely understand what the members hate about us so much, loved working with them in the Karma War

WTF - 3

TOOL - 4

TDO - 3

VE - 4

Legion - ...lol... 3

RoK - 2

GATO - 1

CSN - 4

Athens - 9

Gremlins - 6

MCXA - 1

UPN - 1

RIA - 6

STA - 7 (I have always liked Tyga)

Invicta - 4

RnR - 6

MASH - 3

NADC - 4

WAPA -3

NV - 6

NSO - 1

NEW - 5 - Somewhat like brothers in arms

MA - 3

Umbrella - 7

FAN - 5

LoSS - 5

TSO - 6 "We're not so different...You and I"

NATO - 5 - Worked well recently, my opinion is changing a bit

Nordreich - 5

GR - 7

Vanguard - 8 - Like the way the alliance is run

GOD - 5 - Somewhat impressive, similar to us in a few ways

FoB - 9

PC - Im a bit biased...

Valhalla - 4

GGA - 2

TPF - 1

[Van Hoo III]

I hate you so much for this. So much. )):

Me too. I even checked.

[Delta1212]

I left?

Edit: I just checked and it made me realize that I never changed back my profile from Halloween, just my avatar and sig.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Delta1212

[Leigon]

Half of SF had a heartattack when reading that post.

[Big Z]

I left?

Edit: I just checked and it made me realize that I never changed back my profile from Halloween, just my avatar and sig.

You were kidnapped by a rogue anti-cupcakery cult, hoping to take over Planet Bob by infecting you with a parasite and using you to infect all of the SF, C&G, and Citadel high level representatives in cupcakery. It was a traumatic experience for all involved but we rescued you from their clutches and prevailed once again!

Edited November 12, 2009 by Big Z

[Benjamin Arouet]

Honestly, about January or February. Blind Freddy could see what was happening and only drastic action would have changed the fate, drastic action that was advised and ignored.. c'est la vie. I find it completely and totally misleading to suggest that Karma was only formed in the immediate lead up to the war and always have especially considering the logs, spreadsheets etc that were circulating months and months before.

Obviously this was brewing well in advance. OV was what touched it off, but the fact that you (and everyone else) knew that the next action by the NPO similar to the OV situation would trigger such a conflict is all the more reason I remain confused as to why they went through with it. In any case I do agree that there were *rough* sides long before the OV situation, though as you said they contained a few glaring errors and miscalculations as to certain large alliances' stances, notably including NpO.

I don't want to distract from the conversation that was going on, but I just don't think anyone could realistically think "Karma" was entirely spontaneous.

[Samotopia]

UPN - The only thing you had going for you was Samo. 3

Holy crap, you do like me!

[Litha Riddle]

Obviously this was brewing well in advance. OV was what touched it off, but the fact that you (and everyone else) knew that the next action by the NPO similar to the OV situation would trigger such a conflict is all the more reason I remain confused as to why they went through with it.

Maybe because sometimes its better to grit your teeth and jump in to face whats coming, rather than sitting and waiting while even more people desert you to protect themselves.

But then I'm not in charge of anything, so just my guess.

[andyt2k]

Even if that war declaration by Polar is incorrect/misleading, it doesn't matter if NpO decided to only activate treaties with STA or if they decided to only activate treaties with STA and NSO. In either case, they were choosing which allies they wanted to help and which they wanted to be distanced from. Once again, exactly the same as ODN, except less honest.

How is it less honest, we've always said STA come first. If there's still any confusion to enemies, friends or random alliances, I will state this as fact on the OWF in big text so it's on record for everyone (it's also on my nations wiki page)

THE ALLIANCE OF AND MEMBERS OF THE NEW POLAR ORDER WILL ALWAYS DEFEND THE ALLIANCE OF AND MEMBERS OF THE SIBERIAN TIGER ALLIANCE. WE CAN AND WILL USE LOOKING AT THE STA IN THE WRONG WAY AS A VALID CB.

DO NOT

I repeat

DO NOT MESS WITH THE STA OR WE WILL BOUNCE YOUR ALLIANCE FROM WALL TO WALL AND TAKE YOUR LUNCH MONEY AND TELL YOUR MOTHER YOU STOLE $20 FROM HER PURSE TO BUY BEERS

Sorry if I went over the top, but there still seems to be some confusion about NpO - STA relations.

I have seen several admissions in this very thread, actually.

Well thats wonderful, next time we'll wait a year and instead of imperial statements we'll make a few posts in a semi active sub forum thread. It's something, it's a lot more than is expected from ODN but it's like 0.4% of what most people would do

Edited November 13, 2009 by andyt2k

[Lord Brendan]

Honestly, about January or February. Blind Freddy could see what was happening and only drastic action would have changed the fate, drastic action that was advised and ignored.. c'est la vie. I find it completely and totally misleading to suggest that Karma was only formed in the immediate lead up to the war and always have especially considering the logs, spreadsheets etc that were circulating months and months before.(no you can not have my copies). It amuses me to no end that those spreadsheets from early in the year turned out to basically be 100% correct, except for a few notable exception such as NpO who I saw drafted on both sides at various times.

A most interesting claim by yourself. Personally, I would agree that the sides for the Karma War were fairly predictable; a list I made sometime around January was accurate but for one or two mistakes. At least there's one point we can agree on.

Let's say for the sake of the argument that in mid-January, you had a roughly accurate idea of what the sides would be in the inevitable showdown with the New Pacific Order. Nothing all that special about that. However, something else happened around then: Polar was released from surrender terms, meaning you didn't yet have any treaties yet. All the treaties you held at the time of the Karma War were signed within a ~3 month span preceding the war.

That includes MDoAPs with STA, Valhalla, Nueva Vida, Genesis, NPO and Ragnarok. All this with a roughly accurate idea of who the combatants would be in the upcoming war. You might not have been certain for a few fence-sitters, but obviously you knew where central figures such as NPO and Valhalla would end up. Obviously STA would stick with MK, and as the above poster so kindly highlights, STA was your #1 priority. Other figures such as Ragnarok and NV further bound you to what would become Karma.

Do you admit then that you signed treaties with NPO and Valhalla with the knowledge that you would be unable to honor them when the time came?

[The Pansy]

Do you admit then that you signed treaties with NPO and Valhalla with the knowledge that you would be unable to honor them when the time came?

I feel i have to speak out here, Grub was put into a particularly awkward situation here, Grub did his best to honor his treaties both sides, and he worked tirelessly through Diplomatic channels in Valhalla defence.

Like with Monos Archein, Rok, TTK, we accepted the side of that war they had to be on, and they accepted ours.

No Valhalla member had an issue with the path Grub had to take, and to be honest, none of us expected him to take another, nor did we feel the treaty was signed with intents on never activating it, and due to all alliances understanding each others position, no one at the time felt that the treaties were being violated, and none of us got Butt-Hurt over the situation.

[Bob Janova]

Okay, since we seem to be having 'that argument' again, Karma was not planned a long way in advance. For sure, Grämlins, MHA and TOP were not part of any planning, and with an intact Continuum and Citadel not onside, there would have been no Karma. There were some people who were not happy with the status quo, and feelers were put out by several people along the lines of 'if X gets rolled, we'll defend them', but nothing on the same order of magnitude as what was actually organised for Karma came about until the drama surrounding the VE treaty cancellations. Some people (notably members of SF I believe) were manoeuvring strategically during that time, which is probably what you were approached as a part of, but the number of alliances involved in any planning at that stage was nowhere near enough to actually do anything.

I only started saving pictures of the MDP web in March, but even that late there were no clear sides in the web. The fact is, people were predicting a grand come-uppance for NPO pretty much for the entire lifespan of Continuum, and the fact that that did actually come about in the end doesn't mean that the people predicting it 'knew what was coming' before anything was coming. Even the day before the war started, things could have happened very differently.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Well, the time being 1am, and me having nothing better to do, I might as well go ahead

TOP - 6 I haven't seen any major political disasters from you guys, you seem to have a dedicated membership and know what you're doing. OBR seem to think good of you. It'd be good to get to know you more.

MHA - n/a Not seen much of you guys on the OWF, very quiet for the 2nd ranked alliance. Can't formulate an opinion really

Sparta - 7 Despite people basing their opinions on your success being due to the '300' hype, you're a good alliance with a organised membership. I also know your MoIA personally and he's a wonderful chap +1 for el coggins

NpO - 8 I only started paying attention to politics and whatnot since last year, but everything I have seen from Polar has been good. Your membership are dedicated and you are very good at what you do. Grub certainly has done you a world of good since your stomping almost a year ago. If I were to leave my alliance, I would definately consider joining.

IRON - 4 You seemed to be following Pacific around like a nice lapdog until you realised your master made alot of enemies and decided to bail. I've yet to see any changes from you guys since the Karma War. I wonder if anyone will ever be able to trust you again

ODN - 5 I hear alot about abandoning allies in order to survive. I hope this isn't something that you intend to carry on.

FARK - n/a Silent

GPA - n/a Neutral

NPO - 5 You did a damn good job of dominating the game when you were at the top. I don't agree with some of your practices which you have since denied. But you were a good evil empire while it lasted.

FOK - n/a

MK - 8 You guys seem to have a very open policy on free speech. I like that, and you will gladly take a bullet for your closest allies and will see things through the end. Since the NoCB war you've always appeared to be a good bunch, with a good sense of humour. Don't let this freedom and power goto your head, but I'm sure you won't

WTF - n/a Neutral

TOOL n/a

TDO n/a Neutral

VE - 5 I don't know what to make of you, prior to the Karma War, you made the first steps to distance yourself from the NPO and make a point of only allying yourselves to people who didn't intend on using you as meatshields. Which is good, but I haven't seen much from you guys recently

Legion - n/a

RoK - 4 Your membership seems to only exist depending on whether or not Van Hoo happens to be in the house. Its not a good thing.

GATO - n/a

CSN - n/a

Athens - 4 I wasn't pleased with your actions post-DE merger, when you decided to attack the people who didn't feel like joining you. Nor do I like this posturing you're doing when the NPO get a bit ticked off at you and cannot hold their tongues (See: recent screenshot dumping and threats courtesy of londo) I thought this sort of behaviour was the very behaviour you fought to end. It appears the power is getting to you a bit.

Gremlins - 6 Very independent, very wise and powerful bunch of people. It's a shame you seem to be hemmoraging members every month.

MCXA - 5 Pre-TSO Exodus, I wasn't keen on you. All that buddying up with Pacifica you did, and the Agora Accords disgraced your name. But now that those members have gone, things are looking up for you.

UPN - n/a

RIA - 6 Seem like a fun bunch of people, don't know much else about you though

STA - 8 See Polar, only replace the words Grub with Tyga

Invicta - 4 Your reaction to the recent Stickmen drama hasn't reflected well on you.

RnR - n/a

MASH - n/a

NADC - n/a

WAPA - n/a

NV - 6 Hizzy seems like a good guy, and zzzptm also. Other than that, I don't know much about you, but I've not seen anything bad from you

NSO - 5

NEW - 6 When I last went unaligned, within 10 minutes I was set upon by 3 NEW nations. Your proficiency at tech raiding scares me, I'm sure your warface is even more horrifying. I like it.

MA - n/a

Umbrella - 7 Decent bunch of people.

FAN - 6 Congratulations, you survived. But you haven't changed, if you were given half the chance to have your old power back. You'd be the same old FAN doing the same old !@#$ you used to do. Although, that at least makes things interesting

LoSS - 7 Sound bunch of people there, good contributors to the Black Sphere

TSO - 1 If you hadn't gutted MCXA of it's government. They wouldn't be improving as an alliance, and they'd still be full of the same old !@#$ as you guys are. So your very existence has helped to improve an otherwise awful alliance. Funny huh? That however doesn't justify the fact that you're just a bunch of survivalist old guard hegemony leaders with no sense of loyalty, and if the time came when TSO was under threat you'd all bail on one another in a second. You know what they say about Leopards and spots.

NATO - n/a

Nordreich - 7 I'm pleased with the progress of this reformed NoR, they're definately working to make their image alot different to the percieved NoR of the past. And they contribute alot to the Black Sphere as a whole.

GR - n/a

Vanguard - n/a

GOD - n/a

FoB - 7 See, Umbrella and LoSS

PC - 6 I dunno what to say about you guys, since the Karma war, you've definately mellowed out a little bit, since you finally got your revenge, and your recent move to Black and contributes show promise. I'm liking what I see so far.

Valhalla - 5 You seem to have a good community, just shut Pansy up about his Casualties. Casualties are stats too y'know.

GGA - 4 Yes you have Shane Price, but I havent seen anything else from you. You smell like the gutted corpse of an old regime left in Dr Frankensteins basement with lightning rods attached desperately trying to reanimate it. Prove me wrong?

TPF - 4 Yes you stuck it out, congrats, but all that posturing as the underdog didn't suit you.

[Ragashingo]

Heh. At least we've all stopped endless debating the causes and winners of the Great War...

[potato]

Well thats wonderful, next time we'll wait a year and instead of imperial statements we'll make a few posts in a semi active sub forum thread. It's something, it's a lot more than is expected from ODN but it's like 0.4% of what most people would do

Not to piss on your parade of ODN hate, my good friend, but ODN did admit quite a few times they made mistakes in the past, the Polar fiasco being their biggest. It's been said all across these boards by gov't, ex-gov't, members, ex-members... If I'm not mistaken (and either Grub or Arsenal/Sunstar can correct me here), Arsenal/Sunstar did talk to your Emperor to explain and try to make amends. Now, it may not be enough for your liking or for Polar's (and that is perfectly understandable) but if you're going to !@#$ on ODN, do it accurately. There's so many other things they did wrong

Holy crap, you do like me!

No. I said you were a good thing by UPN standards. Not that you were a good thing.

Edited November 13, 2009 by potato

[Lord Fingolfin]

I'd be up for a chat. I'd like that very much, actually.

(the following contains minor OOC content. viewer discretion is advised)

NONPARTICIPANT in this world of ours that you are, Athens still holds TOOL

IN the highest regard. Although politically inactive, you have mastered

CN gameplay mechanics to the highest degree possible. Because you disdain

POLITICS, while we revel in them, there is a gap in understanding between us.

PLEASE try to understand that this cultural gap between us doesn't mean that we

DO not respect and even admire you. How could it possibly be otherwise? Do we

NOT share TOOL's appreciation and love for nuclear stockpiles? If you would only

INVOLVE us in your affairs, think of the connection which could be built between you and

ME, one as strong as the bond between MK and Athens in the noCB war, in fact. If

IN any way we have offended you, we call on you to forgive us our tresspasses. Is there

ANY person who has not sinned against his fellow man? Instead of loving, we fight

WARS. This is so terrible. It prevents all alliances from building a better world one

I hope to see come to pass soon, where infrastructure can be hugged tightly and no one

WILL mock or laugh at those of us who do it. There shall be no more casualties, and every

NUKE shall be decommissioned, to save on bills and improve the environment. I mean,

YOU know that this world can come to pass. Instead of maintaining a full complement of

25 nukes, every nation in the world can maintain 0. In keeping with these illustrious

TIMES, all military wonders will be decommissioned to save on bills. Better to save the money

THAN spend it, amirite? But enough of this beating around the bush. I want TOOL to

QUIT thinking that we don't respect you. How could this possibly be in any case?

Personally I have nothing against TOOL and am interested in getting to know them better. But this is still epic. Nice one Londo.

We're not actually allies any more, not since ~April :s

That might have something to do with it.

Try late July, but w/e semantics I suppose

Have you been on the bob mars for the last year, people did complain about them. People complained about them for months and months and months. We had Vox then Continuum imploded, largely thanks to the work of Sparta who didn't really complain that much rather just plotted with there friends in GOD and RIA. Oh yeah then we had that big war a couple of months back and people are still complaining about them. Now we have reached the final stage of this communities demise where we have people complaining about the lack of past complaining, what's worse I'm complaining about that. People complain to much.

TOP: 8

Well played mate. Now where is our Legion rating

[OneBallMan]

Did you just imply that FOK isn't cool?

Ummm. No. Not sure where you got that.

But FOK are cool.

[Archon]

Okay, since we seem to be having 'that argument' again, Karma was not planned a long way in advance.

Supporting this. Speaking for MK, we didn't even "enter the picture" officially til right before the actual war broke out, and given that I wound up being the Voice of Karma I'd like to think that wouldn't have happened had there been a large core already in place.

[Penguin]

Not to piss on your parade of ODN hate, my good friend, but ODN did admit quite a few times they made mistakes in the past, the Polar fiasco being their biggest. It's been said all across these boards by gov't, ex-gov't, members, ex-members... If I'm not mistaken (and either Grub or Arsenal/Sunstar can correct me here), Arsenal/Sunstar did talk to your Emperor to explain and try to make amends. Now, it may not be enough for your liking or for Polar's (and that is perfectly understandable) but if you're going to !@#$ on ODN, do it accurately. There's so many other things they did wrong

What the potato says is true, Andy, ODN has apologized many, many times. It got to the point where I had to personally approach ODN to beg them not to apologize anymore because every ODN announcement seemed to turn into an unsolicited apology to Polaris. We never asked for or even wanted one, we got hundreds anyway, and now that the Apology:Thread ratio has hit historic lows it would be incredibly counterproductive to start this up again.

[Benjamin Arouet]

Supporting this. Speaking for MK, we didn't even "enter the picture" officially til right before the actual war broke out, and given that I wound up being the Voice of Karma I'd like to think that wouldn't have happened had there been a large core already in place.

All true, obviously. Something can become inevitable without being actively planned, though.