Zhadum reveals NPO information: organized logs

[Coursca]

Then you shouldn't have been head of FA at the time. This is a serious problem with a system where people keep their position until they either resign or (rarely) get kicked out of it. Someone who was going to be around for that month or two, when you weren't, should have been made IO in charge of FA at the time.

Come now, Bob, you can't rightly place the blame squarely on Triyun or Dilber for (OOC: having a life) -- there were other FA IOs around at the time, you know.

Or, you know, the big guy up top could maybe have enough FA experience to handle things for a couple of weeks without having a total implosion.

[Näktergal]

Congratulations NPO, Zhadum was always your enemies best weapon. He needed a cage or the boot, the only unfortunate thing is it took you so long to get rid of him.

Zha was always useful to the NPO when they needed someone to troll the hell out of the forums in order to goad someone else into providing a CB.

And you know what? Talking about that particular era reminds me that I miss Josef Thorne.

Oh drama how I missed thee.

It's actually kind of confounding to me how many people are taking what Zha is saying at face value.

A large portion of the playerbase lacks any real knowledge of the real facts, so even blatant lies sound like they could be true when you don't know any better. Then add in the fact that we're dealing with a presentation that tends to blend fact and fiction to provide Zha's biased viewpoint (whether he actually believes everything he's saying or has deliberately spun things to make himself look good), so there's enough truth in there to lend the whole thing verisimilitude.

It's actually times like this that the NPO's much-vaunted secrecy tends to backfire - when someone from "the inside" does come out and info-dump, it's nearly impossible to tell how much of what they're saying is accurate...

[Earogema]

I laughed at the Fark part really hard. I mean, really? I hope that's just a joke.

Bigwoody leaving the war after being ready for it was funny. Only confirms what I already know of him and TORN.

Although, funny enough, the whole Karma war bit was believable IF, NPO hadn't attacked during negotiations. I mean, I doubt NPO could have won, but you really destroyed yourself on that one.

[WildThing]

Certainly not mind-blowing, but at the expense of sounding like theAUT I'll admit that it was interesting none-the-less, and worth the read thanks to all the ex-Pacificans flocking to this thread, it's funny how they all seem to have the same opinion, and all revolve around having seen this stuff coming from a long time ago.. And now they're all gone.

Pacifica really doesn't deserve this kind of attention any more though.. And I think this thread proves they'll never be what they were again.

[Bob Sanders]

He was never Old Guard so far as the NPO was concerned.

This should have happened years ago.

This x10

I don't think I have ever talked to an NPO IO who said anything good about Zhadum or MaskofBlue. Most of them would express outright hate.

[Lord of Destruction]

Pacifica really doesn't deserve this kind of attention any more though.. And I think this thread proves they'll never be what they were again.

Yes, because they were destroyed in a major war they're now completely irrelevant and we should entirely ignore them.

They're just as relevant as any other alliance, possibly moreso, and to claim otherwise is ridiculous.

[Kevin McDonald]

A very interesting read.

I think just the fact that this topic happened and NPO personnel are commenting in it shows how far Moo's power has waned.

[Timmmehhh]

I do wish I had more time to spend online during those few weeks leading up to war and provide better council, I'm sure Dilber and other FA people with IRL issues wish the same. (OOC: Fact was we all had more important things to do than this game. In my case graduating.)

I agree with BobJanova, Inactivity of dictators and oligarchs is a big flaw in dictatorships. I remember the Orders used to laugh at democracies and said it was an inefficient sytem, but at least we got active and sensible people in charge. At FOK we have enough sensible people to switch the high gov once every 3 months.

The people used to laugh at democracies because of incompetent democracies like Legion, GATO and others GW3. The Karma war shows that democracies certainly can work. Most oligarchies and dictatorships lost, and among the triumphing alliances we have alliances like TOP, FARK and FOK who are full fledged democracies. Democracy prevails

Edited September 27, 2009 by Timmehhh

[WildThing]

Yes, because they were destroyed in a major war they're now completely irrelevant and we should entirely ignore them.

They're just as relevant as any other alliance, possibly moreso, and to claim otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree.. The aura of invincibility NPO once had is lost, and it's not coming back. Bob's politics revolved around them for a long time, it doesn't anymore and this thread simply proves further that they're falling apart and not likely to become anything more in the near future.

Further still, this thread really isn't anything new to anyone, interesting or not. If I don't think it should have reached 9 pages, I'm gonna continue to think that whatever you 'Pacifican Scum' have to say about it or not.

[x8BitL0gic]

Best night ever.

o7

[BarbulaM1]

I am a hostile person

[Ryan Greenberg]

Pretty interesting read.

[Fallen Fool]

I wouldn't dismiss the stuff that does not directly involve him. Anything with him personally (his interactions, the Ivan/TrotskysRevenge coup, etc), I would flat out ignore, but there is a lot of other content there that quite simply he has no reason to lie about because he is no longer trying to enforce a Party line other than absolving himself of all blame for NPO's mistakes.

I'm not claiming that all the things he's saying are valueless.

I'm just expressing my surprise at the fact that people aren't attempting to analyze Zha's motives and biases before buying into what he says.

Come now, Bob, you can't rightly place the blame squarely on Triyun or Dilber for (OOC: having a life) -- there were other FA IOs around at the time, you know.

Or, you know, the big guy up top could maybe have enough FA experience to handle things for a couple of weeks without having a total implosion.

Inactive leadership is sometimes worse then bad leadership, especially when the people who are left to fill the gap aren't up to par.

A large portion of the playerbase lacks any real knowledge of the real facts, so even blatant lies sound like they could be true when you don't know any better. Then add in the fact that we're dealing with a presentation that tends to blend fact and fiction to provide Zha's biased viewpoint (whether he actually believes everything he's saying or has deliberately spun things to make himself look good), so there's enough truth in there to lend the whole thing verisimilitude.

True enough. I guess I had just hoped that some CN members I've seen hopping on the Zha bandwagon in this thread would be more discerning.

I guess it's just me be foolish, heh.

It's actually times like this that the NPO's much-vaunted secrecy tends to backfire - when someone from "the inside" does come out and info-dump, it's nearly impossible to tell how much of what they're saying is accurate...

Indeed. Though it does certainly make the game more interesting for the rest of the peanut gallery and I.

[HeinousOne]

Quite a read. Some info in there that confirms my beliefs that I have held for some time.

The Council is a joke and are basically puppets if they want to have any clout with the upper ranks.

The upper echelon is so fractured that trust is a major issue and it is the little guys in the organization that take the hits.

Moo should have stepped down after the war. The fact that he thought about it and didnt do it just shows how wishy washy he is as a leader. A really nice guy but a leader of such an organization needs to be firm and resolute. If he was that, the IO's wouldnt be able to carve out their own fiefdoms. NPO needs an extremely strong Emperor if it is going to survive. We may still see those Kingdoms carved out of the Empire still.

I have personally felt the sting of Triyun internally. You disagree with him you better be prepared for a fight, if you are not of equal power with him internally you better find some big guys to stick up for you. Besides that though I have also experienced a very level headed and capable Triyun. You probably should have just went ahead and formed that new alliance Triyun. Good luck picking up the pieces from this.

As far as seeing Zha talk about all the other cliques yet not once talking about him and MoB and her thirst for power, I find it hard to take him very serious with this. Thanks for the discussion I guess but this really doesn't do anything to help you or MoB, it will hurt NPO though.

I find it amusing that some folks needed to see this to realize the hand TORN had in the war. I guess those of us that were claiming such all along don't quite pack the punch when concerning our statements.

The fact that Brehon was attacked as a proper candidate for IO just goes to show Zha's opinion and possible many of the others at the top that they only wanted people brought up that were already under control. NPO ceased being a Meritocracy long ago.

I am Really looking forward to seeing who the new Emperor will be. Good luck to whomever that is.

[Alan Shore]

Dear God, 11 pages and I haven't even posted yet. Rather amusing watching the old haters, really, calling them anything else would give them too much credit. In particularly Ivan, the once and would be future king, prowling around the thread taking cheap shots where he get them; backed by his minuscule flock of washed up cronies. Hard to decide if it is pitiable of laughable. Of course, no small amount of Polar hate in here too. Not one post here and I've already ripped the title of most hated player in CN from Bilrow.

Yes, I will be creating my own thread, most of you, I expect will be disappointed. I'm aware a lot of you are expecting me to go full on ripping into the NPO, tell you how terrible and corrupt and evil they were. I'm not, that's not why I'm here, it isn't why I will be posting. Believe me or not, I will be posting exactly how I saw things and how the NPO saw things, in general terms. I cannot, nor do I presume to speak for the Imperial Staff as individuals, however, I can point to the distinct trends in what they said behind closed doors.

Further, I also am not going to do the expected 180, suddenly deciding everyone who ever worked against the Order was right and the NPO was horrible and wrong. We all know doing so would be BS. Sometimes, fact was, NPO was right. Sometimes they got the short straw. Sometimes they deserved the short straw. Just an alliance like any other, trying to do what is best for themselves. Sometimes I may not be right, my knowledge is fallible like anyone else's, sometimes I will tell you something that clashes with your own experience. For example, TOP and IRON members mentioning my notes about Polar causing relations breakdown. Maybe it is true, maybe it isn't, but that is what is and has been flying around in the top levels of the NPO.

So, that said, don't let this get in the way of the sniping/defending/repeating how interesting it is/saying you already knew it. Wouldn't want to derail the thread.

[Margrave]

I love this line right here:

<+Zhadum> Well, in fairness, Sponge had $%&@ed us over quite a bit first

[19:06:40] <+Zhadum> He told Moo point blank he engineered the Unjust War just to get rid of NPO's allies so he would be the dominant partner in the relationship

Really sponge?

I loved you, then I hated you, then I respected you, and now this comes out.

We'll get our justice, never you fear. It'll come with the passing of time.

[HeinousOne]

By the way, when did that discussion take place?

Edit: and where?

Edited September 27, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Vilien]

We'll get our justice, never you fear. It'll come with the passing of time.

Revenge? Maybe. Justice? Probably not.

[DrunkMonkey]

By the way, when did that discussion take place?

Edit: and where?

Last night in #mushroom

[Moridin]

We'll get our justice, never you fear. It'll come with the passing of time.

...it'll be hard to get that when sponge is no longer here.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Dear God, 11 pages and I haven't even posted yet. Rather amusing watching the old haters, really, calling them anything else would give them too much credit. In particularly Ivan, the once and would be future king, prowling around the thread taking cheap shots where he get them; backed by his minuscule flock of washed up cronies. Hard to decide if it is pitiable of laughable. Of course, no small amount of Polar hate in here too. Not one post here and I've already ripped the title of most hated player in CN from Bilrow.

Yes, I will be creating my own thread, most of you, I expect will be disappointed. I'm aware a lot of you are expecting me to go full on ripping into the NPO, tell you how terrible and corrupt and evil they were. I'm not, that's not why I'm here, it isn't why I will be posting. Believe me or not, I will be posting exactly how I saw things and how the NPO saw things, in general terms. I cannot, nor do I presume to speak for the Imperial Staff as individuals, however, I can point to the distinct trends in what they said behind closed doors.

Further, I also am not going to do the expected 180, suddenly deciding everyone who ever worked against the Order was right and the NPO was horrible and wrong. We all know doing so would be BS. Sometimes, fact was, NPO was right. Sometimes they got the short straw. Sometimes they deserved the short straw. Just an alliance like any other, trying to do what is best for themselves. Sometimes I may not be right, my knowledge is fallible like anyone else's, sometimes I will tell you something that clashes with your own experience. For example, TOP and IRON members mentioning my notes about Polar causing relations breakdown. Maybe it is true, maybe it isn't, but that is what is and has been flying around in the top levels of the NPO.

So, that said, don't let this get in the way of the sniping/defending/repeating how interesting it is/saying you already knew it. Wouldn't want to derail the thread.

Oh come now, my posts are hardly cheap shots.

I haven't said anything except what I have stated almost continuously since the time when you were first appointed to be an IO. That it was a mistake and that you would ultimately be a disservice to the culture of Pacifica.

You know I never wanted you to have the position, I believe the world at large can decide whether the rest of my statement is true.

[TehChron]

In particularly Ivan, the once and would be future king, prowling around the thread taking cheap shots where he get them; backed by his minuscule flock of washed up cronies. Hard to decide if it is pitiable of laughable. Of course, no small amount of Polar hate in here too. Not one post here and I've already ripped the title of most hated player in CN from Bilrow.

Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

I may take offense to this, considering the only two NSO posters in this thread so far seem to have been Ivan and myself. But don't let me keep you from a good rant.

[jer]

I'm just expressing my surprise at the fact that people aren't attempting to analyze Zha's motives and biases before buying into what he says.

Seems to me as though this is nothing more than a last vengeful swipe at those who have ousted him as well as an attempt at playing the brave whistle-blowing martyr type, in order to carry favour with those who previously disliked him for being a chief tyrant. "Sure, Z'ha'dum represented some of the worst traits of the NPO, but forget about that because he's just shockingly exposed all of these really fresh insights about some of the awful practices of the NPO, and none of them were his fault! (never mind that he had just been sacked anyway)".

It seems obvious to me that he has hand picked a number of the most prominent criticisms that have been levelled at the NPO in recent times and milked them just to serve his own bitter ends. Nothing to see here but one man's ego working it's magic for what I suspect will be the final time.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Delta1212]

I love this line right here:

<+Zhadum> Well, in fairness, Sponge had $%&@ed us over quite a bit first

[19:06:40] <+Zhadum> He told Moo point blank he engineered the Unjust War just to get rid of NPO's allies so he would be the dominant partner in the relationship

Really sponge?

I loved you, then I hated you, then I respected you, and now this comes out.

We'll get our justice, never you fear. It'll come with the passing of time.

That's really old. It's been common knowledge since before Polar got hit.

[Alan Shore]

Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

I may take offense to this, considering the only two NSO posters in this thread so far seem to have been Ivan and myself. But don't let me keep you from a good rant.

I never said anything about NSO. You also missed Corrinan and Heft and some other guy.