Zhadum reveals NPO information: organized logs

[TehChron]

Z'ha appears to have known an awful lot less than I do. Blaming his fellow IOs for being secretive is one thing, but a lot of what he thought was true could have been fairly easily debugged by a couple queries to a guy who was senior diplomatic leadership (vice president when the war broke out, now Dean of the Diplomatic Corps) in the alliance that he apparently considered to be his best ally.

Holding a false opinion and caring enough to correct it are two different things. Someone who is involved in foreign affairs will do the latter, while someone who does not care to be will hold the former.

I have 422K of query logs with Triyun. He's not too bad at keeping in touch. Of course, that's not counting the private channel conversations as well.

Sometimes a person needs to remember the importance of delegating necessary tasks. You may have stuck with the NPO, but had Triyun done his job, more folks would have as well, thus not leaving the NPO in it's current condition.

You standing by the NPO may have been honorable and such, but frankly, Invicta didn't really make a difference in the grand scheme of the war. The relationships that did matter militarily, such as the one with TOP (and Fark, apparently) were examples of Triyun's failure.

[Coursca]

Triyun did just fine with IRON. It was certainly not his fault that the IRON/NPO relationship took a nosedive. *shrugs*

[Triyun]

I do wish I had more time to spend online during those few weeks leading up to war and provide better council, I'm sure Dilber and other FA people with IRL issues wish the same. (OOC: Fact was we all had more important things to do than this game. In my case graduating.)

Edited September 27, 2009 by Triyun

[Haflinger]

You standing by the NPO may have been honorable and such, but frankly, Invicta didn't really make a difference in the grand scheme of the war. The relationships that did matter militarily, such as the one with TOP (and Fark, apparently) were examples of Triyun's failure.

You do have a point; TOP's support would have been very nice to have. Except that I think you're blaming the wrong person for the reason why NPO lost it. But I think that's it for me in this thread.

[Moridin]

Oh drama how I missed thee.

It's actually kind of confounding to me how many people are taking what Zha is saying at face value.

I wouldn't dismiss the stuff that does not directly involve him. Anything with him personally (his interactions, the Ivan/TrotskysRevenge coup, etc), I would flat out ignore, but there is a lot of other content there that quite simply he has no reason to lie about because he is no longer trying to enforce a Party line other than absolving himself of all blame for NPO's mistakes.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Moridin

[WarriorConcept]

It's actually kind of confounding to me how many people are taking what Zha is saying at face value.

Most people don't remember him to be honest, or how he talked.

[Un4Gvn1]

Actually, it's more of a supplemental than an outright denial of what Zha said.

Basically;

Sans mhawk, TPF government would have bailed on the NPO.

With mHawk, deciding chunk of TPF government bailed rather than aid the NPO. Then left the honorable folks to fend for themselves.

A respectful correction:

Sans mhawk ... that is the way we were for about 2 days. Mhawk left in disgust, put "Elysium" in his AA and stood ready to help NPO in the war. Meanwhile, the 'other' TPF gov and members made it clear we didn't agree with the dropping the treaty thing. We did that without Mhawk being there.

With Mhawk ... yes, a chunk of TPF gov bailed rather than aid the NPO. Then left the honorable folks to fend for themselves ... but, their bailing reason may not necessarily have been because they wanted to leave NPO to hang by themselves. I have a feeling that, in spite of the fact they all fought and lost a lot of infra, they didn't want to go to ZI. It became clear early on that ZI is where we were heading.

Edit: sand = sans

Edited September 27, 2009 by Peggy_Sue

[Bob Janova]

I do wish I had more time to spend online during those few weeks leading up to war and provide better council, I'm sure Dilber and other FA people with IRL issues wish the same. (OOC: Fact was we all had more important things to do than this game. In my case graduating.)

Then you shouldn't have been head of FA at the time. This is a serious problem with a system where people keep their position until they either resign or (rarely) get kicked out of it. Someone who was going to be around for that month or two, when you weren't, should have been made IO in charge of FA at the time.

[Tautology]

I get a slightly sadistic pleasure from watching how this type of disclosure gets some people scurrying around trying to save a few of the people whose heads have been put on the block. The best part is trying to work out their motives for saving those heads.

[Palpatine001]

Well that was an hour of my life I will not be getting back in a hurry.

Interesting in this log dump though and why it is here now and got 75 users reading it.

Anycase onwards with Foreign Affairs work.

[Hyperion321]

This thread is doomed for failure.

[Azaghul]

Then you shouldn't have been head of FA at the time. This is a serious problem with a system where people keep their position until they either resign or (rarely) get kicked out of it. Someone who was going to be around for that month or two, when you weren't, should have been made IO in charge of FA at the time.

That's the problem when supposed "meritocracies" become entrenched oligarchies.

It's a problem because everyone loves loves the power, influence, and information they get by being a part of government, and are loathe to give it up even when they aren't able to put in the time to hold their position. And their higher-ups don't want to risk ruining friendships by removing them.

[Hyperion321]

That's the problem when supposed "meritocracies" become entrenched oligarchies.

It's a problem because everyone loves loves the power, influence, and information they get by being a part of government, and are loathe to give it up even when they aren't able to put in the time to hold their position. And their higher-ups don't want to risk ruining friendships by removing them.

Agreed. And that's why God invented advisory positions.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Hyperion321

[Ivan Moldavi]

That's the problem when supposed "meritocracies" become entrenched oligarchies.

It's a problem because everyone loves loves the power, influence, and information they get by being a part of government, and are loathe to give it up even when they aren't able to put in the time to hold their position. And their higher-ups don't want to risk ruining friendships by removing them.

This sounds a lot like something that was said a long time ago about this specific individual and others on the IO roster.

I wonder whatever happened to that guy.

[TehChron]

This sounds a lot like something that was said a long time ago about this specific individual and others on the IO roster.

I wonder whatever happened to that guy.

He started writing in blue font or something?

[Ivan Moldavi]

He started writing in blue font or something?

No. I was talking about something a bit older than that.

[TehChron]

No. I was talking about something a bit older than that.

He wrote some thread in some forum waaaay back in the day that [ooc]Crossed IC/OOC circuitry and[/ooc] he regretted it considerably afterwards?

Edited September 27, 2009 by Chron

[Ivan Moldavi]

He wrote this thread in this forum waaaay back in the day that [ooc]Crossed IC/OOC circuitry and[/ooc] he regretted in considerably afterwards?

Ah, yes, I know exactly what you are referring to. I am speaking on my own issues with the current IO set up that led to my return to the Emperor position and subsequent coup by those same IOs that I was planning to remove from office for this very sort of corruption. I guess I could also elaborate on the PCIA which was created as a means to attempt to redirect those same IOs after the fact but which was castrated by them so that their precious power wouldn't be curbed or called into question.

Of course, none of that ever actually happened though, right?

[TehChron]

Ah, yes, I know exactly what you are referring to. I am speaking on my own issues with the current IO set up that led to my return to the Emperor position and subsequent coup by those same IOs that I was planning to remove from office for this very sort of corruption. I guess I could also elaborate on the PCIA which was created as a means to attempt to redirect those same IOs after the fact but which was castrated by them so that their precious power wouldn't be curbed or called into question.

Of course, none of that ever actually happened though, right?

You know, it's always shocking how little I know about something which so greatly affects my current standing in this place.

[LJ Scott]

Z'ha'dum you dirty Pacifican traitor!

[energizer]

Ah, yes, I know exactly what you are referring to. I am speaking on my own issues with the current IO set up that led to my return to the Emperor position and subsequent coup by those same IOs that I was planning to remove from office for this very sort of corruption. I guess I could also elaborate on the PCIA which was created as a means to attempt to redirect those same IOs after the fact but which was castrated by them so that their precious power wouldn't be curbed or called into question.

Of course, none of that ever actually happened though, right?

So then what caused this turmoil was you allowing Moo the initial "go ahead" for Emperor then? I can only imagine what would of happened otherwise.

[Ivan Moldavi]

So then what caused this turmoil was you allowing Moo the initial "go ahead" for Emperor then? I can only imagine what would of happened otherwise.

Dilber selected Moo as Regent. When Dilber was incapacitated I stepped in and placed the crown on Moo's head.

I have not always agreed with his decisions but they were his decisions to make. I attempted to have Zha'dam removed on multiple occasions. I wish I had been successful.

[Vilien]

Dilber selected Moo as Regent. When Dilber was incapacitated I stepped in and placed the crown on Moo's head.

I have not always agreed with his decisions but they were his decisions to make. I attempted to have Zha'dam removed on multiple occasions. I wish I had been successful.

I suppose the problems you're describing though are more endemic to the system than unique to Z'ha'dum's case.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I suppose the problems you're describing though are more endemic to the system than unique to Z'ha'dum's case.

It is possible that a single cancerous cell can multiply itself so much to be a hazard to the overall health of the system.

[DrunkMonkey]

TPF members were outraged when they were told the gov had decided to renig on our treaty to defend NPO. Our private IRC channel was near an all-time high in numbers that night, so the percentage of membership represented that night was high. They wanted nothing to do with backing out on a treaty; sure, some members didn't like what NPO had been doing the past year but they are people of honor and didn't want backing out of a treaty with no notice to be on their resumes.

The former TPF gov members responsible for that betrayal abandoned TPF fairly early in the war (maybe 5 weeks in). -- They left saying they'd rebuild and be ready to aid bomb TPF after the war ended. I haven't noticed any incoming aid to TPF from them, to be frank. -- Their betrayal of NPO, based on Skype convos with BigWoody, caused a permanent rift with some gov; I was only the most vocal about it and frankly didn't want to be quiet. I wanted the membership to understand that decision was made by only a handful of gov -- certainly not all of us. (The decision was made by a small group that was in a Skype call. It did NOT represent the thoughts of the entire gov -- not that the opinions of gov members should have been relevant because TPF always has been a dictatorship.)

Still dying for those sins I see. I have this wonderful nugget I'll share with everyone, please explain to NPO how your intentions were honorable...

Since you keep talking about your undying love of TPF, I figured I'd include this tidbit from our conversation that took place after I informed you of how things went down. You remember it was 3 days before you tried to sell TPF gov out to a renegade from NPO and then got log dumped here on the OWF.

[12:56] <DrunkMonkey[TPF]> Well talk about a cluster%$@*

[12:56] <DrunkMonkey[TPF]> its been like this since Friday

[12:57] <Peggy_Sue|TPF> yeah

[12:57] <DrunkMonkey[TPF]> and now we're like this, if TPF survives this

[12:57] <Peggy_Sue|TPF> I'm done with it.

[12:57] <Peggy_Sue|TPF> TPF will die after this

That's what I call undying faith in your alliance!

Edit: repeat words suck

Edited September 27, 2009 by DrunkMonkey