Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[King Srqt]

This announcement makes me proud to be your ally.

I don't have time currently to read the entire thread so I apologize if this has already been covered but was Starfox looking for peace and has now gotten it or is it that the option is now available to him?

[Lincongrad]

As a member of another alliance who have lived under a viceroy and survived, I have nothing but the greatest respect for GATO's persetverence. Congratulations on sticking it out, guys.

[Archon]

I would lend you my sarcasm detector, but I lent it out once today and it ended badly for me.

I thought it was hilarious, personally

[Taget]

Lotsa good stuff in this announcement.

o/ NPO

[Neboe]

“. . . the Emperor reserves the right to extend those sentences to fit the crime; however, under no condition will mandate or indirectly attempt to force the destruction of a ruler.”

Though I will admit I’ve not read the entire thread, I am curious about this clause, as I see several others have chosen to single it out. It would appear to me that this simple clause opens a rather large door of interpretation and intent of execution.

“ . . . the Emperor reserves the right to extend those sentences to fit the crime;” Taken on it’s own this give Moo the authority to continue to sentence offenders to PZI and EZI terms. Standing alone this is nothing to Hail about and this clause negates any of the “Good Show Pacifica” comments from opponents to PZI and EZI that are littering this thread.

However that clause does not stand alone does it? Though separated by a semi-colon there is the second bit, “however, under no condition will mandate or indirectly attempt to force the destruction of a ruler.” This is certainly an interesting however to be thrown into the law. This however clause seeks to limit the powers of the Emperor directly and potentially tightly.

Moo cannot, under any condition, order, or deliver a ruling, that will show intent to destroy a ruler. So now with this however clause Moo seemingly cannot order PZI or EZI as both would seek to “destroy” a ruler.

If that is not limiting the executive powers of the Emperor enough, the clause goes one step even further and states that Moo cannot indirectly attempt to do such a thing. This clause, on the surface seeks to limit even Moo’s speech. Under common interpretation, if Moo were to make a comment in any channel that an offending leader deserves to be run off the planet, that would then be indirect attempt to destroy a leader. Something Moo is no longer allowed to do without breaking his own rule of law.

The last bit is even more perplexing to interpret. It comes to the point of defining “destroy” in terms applicable to Planet Bob. Certainly it is arguable that simply ZI is destruction of the nation, but this clause stipulates destruction of the ruler. What does it really mean to destroy a ruler? Forcing the ruler to disband the nation through sentence of PZI? Preventing the ruler or any subsequent embodiment of said ruler from ever building a new nation through EZI? What if a ruler sees years of hard work and building shattered to ZI and decides that is enough and disbands the nation after single ZI? Would that not be destroying the ruler?

[Petrovich4]

Listen to Hasin.

Saying that, the OP is obviously vague in regards to certain aspects but people can't deny that baby steps are still baby steps. The only thing I am content about is GATO finally being fully sovereign.

[Stravolice]

Excellent news

[cookavich]

About damn time.

[Kroknia]

I can't believe I agree with ChairmanHal... Is this done under pressure? It is likely. Does it change the fact that it is done? Certainly not. People should either be taking this as a victory for the proof that you can influence politics of even the NPO or just to be happy GATO is free. Things changed for the better and you fault them now for changing it. Fact of the matter is everyone keeps in mind PR. CnG takes full advantage of the PR it gets from allowing free thought(Though it usually looks 85% as party line as the NPO from my perspective). Tell me friends > infra wasn't a PR move as well as a gesture. We all rely on PR. Regardless of saying too little too late, it is good PR, even if it is too little too late. The motivation behind those gestures is moderately inconsequential in the long run. The PR is gone as we continue. GATO is free. EZI is gone. These are the important parts of the announcement, not the PR stunt behind it which will be generally forgotten in a month. It just seems to make the popular victory here cheap to do nothing but harass them for making the correct decisions.

I would like to see an apology to GATO, but that will never happen unless the NPO is on its knees.

As for PZI, I think it is perfectly legitimate and I am somewhat sorry to see it go. 95% of EZI I am happy to see go though.

Anyways, congrats Jarheads, GATO and Starfox as well as any individual that may be at war with the NPO in the future.

[Medraut]

A good move, I guess public opinion means something, duh?

At least you guys have good taste in shows.

[Duckz3]

Good job NPO. This for sure was not something that I saw coming...

[ChairmanHal]

Stop contradicting Moo, the NPO has Never Had An EZI List Before

Read again:

1. a great number of people now calling for an end to PZI and EZI

Also...

For your first scenario, that'd be a full out war. The one week round of wars is usually decided by the aggressors (well, person initiating the attacks) and in your scenario the splinters are the ones starting it. NPO can't choose when they'll stop, so they can't make that statement.

Oh my, NPO is powerless to stop them!!!

Get real. We both know what would really happen. As soon as the original war decs cleared NPO would be making new ones against the offenders. They would be kept at war until NPO got tired of dropping bombs and they wouldn't get tired. And you know what? 99% of the alliances in existence would do the same thing. If you want to claim NSO would not, I'll laugh in your face.

Also good job irrelevant peanut gallery whiners!

Whatever that means.

[shahenshah]

Hah. Freedom, right. Free like Jonathan Brookbank is, not to join certain alliances or say certain things? Free like Rebel Virginia is, suffering under secret terms restricting his freedom to speak? Do you think any of us is free so long as "...the Emperor reserves the right to extend those sentences to fit the crime..."? Given how GATO's sentence was extended, given how FAN's has been extended, given how very extended everyone's sentence has been I can't help but place absolutely no faith in the Pacifican ability to administer real justice.

What is the victory here? NPO has a new lapdog.

Hah! Who is the new Lapdog. I is offended!

[Doitzel]

However that clause does not stand alone does it? Though separated by a semi-colon there is the second bit, “however, under no condition will mandate or indirectly attempt to force the destruction of a ruler.” This is certainly an interesting however to be thrown into the law. This however clause seeks to limit the powers of the Emperor directly and potentially tightly.

Moo cannot, under any condition, order, or deliver a ruling, that will show intent to destroy a ruler. So now with this however clause Moo seemingly cannot order PZI or EZI as both would seek to “destroy” a ruler.

See, the problem with this is the NPO Charter and mindset. In their er-, "legal system", the Emperor stands above the Charter and absolutely everything else. There can be no limits on his power because his power within the alliance is absolute. It doesn't limit the Emperor in any way because he can repeal it and reinstate it whenever he wishes without heed to anyone but himself. Indeed, perhaps that is what he is doing each time one of his alliance's nations declares war on one of my alliance's.

Or in other words, NPO is only as good as their word.

[WarriorConcept]

Read again:

Also...

Oh my, NPO is powerless to stop them!!!

Get real. We both know what would really happen. As soon as the original war decs cleared NPO would be making new ones against the offenders. They would be kept at war until NPO got tired of dropping bombs and they wouldn't get tired. And you know what? 99% of the alliances in existence would do the same thing. If you want to claim NSO would not, I'll laugh in your face.

Whatever that means.

Of course they'd keep declaring, because the original aggressor would still be wanting to attack. Re-read your own scenario.

[Electron Sponge]

“. . . the Emperor reserves the right to extend those sentences to fit the crime; however, under no condition will mandate or indirectly attempt to force the destruction of a ruler.”

Though I will admit I’ve not read the entire thread, I am curious about this clause, as I see several others have chosen to single it out. It would appear to me that this simple clause opens a rather large door of interpretation and intent of execution.

“ . . . the Emperor reserves the right to extend those sentences to fit the crime;” Taken on it’s own this give Moo the authority to continue to sentence offenders to PZI and EZI terms. Standing alone this is nothing to Hail about and this clause negates any of the “Good Show Pacifica” comments from opponents to PZI and EZI that are littering this thread.

However that clause does not stand alone does it? Though separated by a semi-colon there is the second bit, “however, under no condition will mandate or indirectly attempt to force the destruction of a ruler.” This is certainly an interesting however to be thrown into the law. This however clause seeks to limit the powers of the Emperor directly and potentially tightly.

Moo cannot, under any condition, order, or deliver a ruling, that will show intent to destroy a ruler. So now with this however clause Moo seemingly cannot order PZI or EZI as both would seek to “destroy” a ruler.

If that is not limiting the executive powers of the Emperor enough, the clause goes one step even further and states that Moo cannot indirectly attempt to do such a thing. This clause, on the surface seeks to limit even Moo’s speech. Under common interpretation, if Moo were to make a comment in any channel that an offending leader deserves to be run off the planet, that would then be indirect attempt to destroy a leader. Something Moo is no longer allowed to do without breaking his own rule of law.

The last bit is even more perplexing to interpret. It comes to the point of defining “destroy” in terms applicable to Planet Bob. Certainly it is arguable that simply ZI is destruction of the nation, but this clause stipulates destruction of the ruler. What does it really mean to destroy a ruler? Forcing the ruler to disband the nation through sentence of PZI? Preventing the ruler or any subsequent embodiment of said ruler from ever building a new nation through EZI? What if a ruler sees years of hard work and building shattered to ZI and decides that is enough and disbands the nation after single ZI? Would that not be destroying the ruler?

You make some rather good points here, Neboe. Just what is 'destroying' a ruler? Isn't that something only mods can do?

I would say that nothing in the decree will actually limit the Emperor's speech, as those who rule by decree aren't really constrained to follow any previous decree and are bound only by the charter which empowers them and the treaties their government has with others. He could go back on this stuff tomorrow and still be well within his authority as Emperor. Of course, he hedged his bets and included that in this decree anyway.

I am not really sure why NPO is to be congratulated here. Congratulations on keeping an alliance in bondage for so long, NPO! Congratulations on 'freeing' them to live under a Pacifican Sword of Damocles! Congratulations on fighting perpetual wars against several alliances because they've had the temerity to resist you by any means necessary! So yes, a hearty congratulations to NPO. Thank you so much for showing us that Pacifican sense of honor time and time again.

[Triyun]

“. . . the Emperor reserves the right to extend those sentences to fit the crime; however, under no condition will mandate or indirectly attempt to force the destruction of a ruler.”

Though I will admit I’ve not read the entire thread, I am curious about this clause, as I see several others have chosen to single it out. It would appear to me that this simple clause opens a rather large door of interpretation and intent of execution.

It means that should a target that is ZIed seem pretty damn willing to and intend to just rebuild and nuke us at their earliest possible convenience, we aren't going to just let them off. Its actually really easy to get off the ZI list. People who know Moo will tell you he is one of the easiest going and most forgiving members of the NPO. If you say you are sorry, really screwed up, and would like another chance, he'll give you a way out. He's given Rebel Virginia complete freedom, and now Starfox is off Imperial ZI, these facts paint a picture very different than those propaganda artists from Vox would like you to believe.

“ . . . the Emperor reserves the right to extend those sentences to fit the crime;” Taken on it’s own this give Moo the authority to continue to sentence offenders to PZI and EZI terms. Standing alone this is nothing to Hail about and this clause negates any of the “Good Show Pacifica” comments from opponents to PZI and EZI that are littering this thread.

However that clause does not stand alone does it? Though separated by a semi-colon there is the second bit, “however, under no condition will mandate or indirectly attempt to force the destruction of a ruler.” This is certainly an interesting however to be thrown into the law. This however clause seeks to limit the powers of the Emperor directly and potentially tightly.

Moo cannot, under any condition, order, or deliver a ruling, that will show intent to destroy a ruler. So now with this however clause Moo seemingly cannot order PZI or EZI as both would seek to “destroy” a ruler.

If that is not limiting the executive powers of the Emperor enough, the clause goes one step even further and states that Moo cannot indirectly attempt to do such a thing. This clause, on the surface seeks to limit even Moo’s speech. Under common interpretation, if Moo were to make a comment in any channel that an offending leader deserves to be run off the planet, that would then be indirect attempt to destroy a leader. Something Moo is no longer allowed to do without breaking his own rule of law.

The last bit is even more perplexing to interpret. It comes to the point of defining “destroy” in terms applicable to Planet Bob. Certainly it is arguable that simply ZI is destruction of the nation, but this clause stipulates destruction of the ruler. What does it really mean to destroy a ruler? Forcing the ruler to disband the nation through sentence of PZI? Preventing the ruler or any subsequent embodiment of said ruler from ever building a new nation through EZI? What if a ruler sees years of hard work and building shattered to ZI and decides that is enough and disbands the nation after single ZI? Would that not be destroying the ruler?

Moo can continue to prosecute the war until such time as satisfactory conditions are made between the target and Moo. This will be done in private and from our side at least handled with as much respect for both parties as possible. As commander and chief of the Pacifican Military, the Emperor has the ability to order an attack on any target regardless of reason. However, he prefers to avoid force when not necessary, and in the case of ZI would encourage those who want off the list too contact him and find a way to serve their sentence and get off.

[Haflinger]

What does it really mean to destroy a ruler? Forcing the ruler to disband the nation through sentence of PZI? Preventing the ruler or any subsequent embodiment of said ruler from ever building a new nation through EZI? What if a ruler sees years of hard work and building shattered to ZI and decides that is enough and disbands the nation after single ZI? Would that not be destroying the ruler?

Yes, I'm glad someone else spotted this. Large nations take quite some time to build; if a two-year-old nation is rendered to ZI, the amount of time required to spend rebuilding in many cases leads to rulers abandoning their nations completely.

This is why the practice of putting nations on permazi lists because they fought back against tech raiders needs to be outlawed completely. It doesn't matter if you don't chase the raided nation across rerolls, as the damage has already been done by the simple ZI order, as most rulers do not want to spend another year or two building a new nation only to have it meet the same fate.

However, the policy as worded speaks to the intent of the Pacifican Emperor. If a ZI order has the effect of causing the ruler to disband his or her nation, that is one thing; this policy says that ZI orders should not be issued with that as a goal.

[Starfox101]

Hm, while it is a nice gesture to free me from the chains of eternal ZI, I shall not give you any praise until the same deal is offered to all of my comrades. I have repeatedly stated I am not leaving Vox until all my allies are given peace, and this includes FAN. I am a man of my word, and until you extend this policy to all of us, I will stand with my brothers in Vox and continue to fight. Our cause is just.

You also deserve no praise for freeing GATO, as it should have never resulted in a viceroy in the first place, let alone one that long,

We're still enemies, and your crimes are not forgiven.

[Neboe]

It means that should a target that is ZIed seem pretty damn willing to and intend to just rebuild and nuke us at their earliest possible convenience, we aren't going to just let them off. Its actually really easy to get off the ZI list. People who know Moo will tell you he is one of the easiest going and most forgiving members of the NPO. If you say you are sorry, really screwed up, and would like another chance, he'll give you a way out. He's given Rebel Virginia complete freedom, and now Starfox is off Imperial ZI, these facts paint a picture very different than those propaganda artists from Vox would like you to believe.

Moo can continue to prosecute the war until such time as satisfactory conditions are made between the target and Moo. This will be done in private and from our side at least handled with as much respect for both parties as possible. As commander and chief of the Pacifican Military, the Emperor has the ability to order an attack on any target regardless of reason. However, he prefers to avoid force when not necessary, and in the case of ZI would encourage those who want off the list too contact him and find a way to serve their sentence and get off.

So basically in your mind, the entire clause means nothing and is in fact a thin political veil to cover the fact that, for NPO policy, nothing has really changed?

[pezstar]

He's given Rebel Virginia complete freedom.

It's my understanding that this is not an accurate statement, and that there are a couple of secret terms that RV is under., including one that restricts his freedom to speak his opinions on these very boards.

[Sandwich Controversy]

It's my understanding that this is not an accurate statement, and that there are a couple of secret terms that RV is under., including one that restricts his freedom to speak his opinions on these very boards.

If this is true, I don't think these "secret terms" have stopped him from doing that at all. He's as vocal as he's always been.

[Freelancer]

Hm, while it is a nice gesture to free me from the chains of eternal ZI, I shall not give you any praise until the same deal is offered to all of my comrades. I have repeatedly stated I am not leaving Vox until all my allies are given peace, and this includes FAN. I am a man of my word, and until you extend this policy to all of us, I will stand with my brothers in Vox and continue to fight. Our cause is just.

You also deserve no praise for freeing GATO, as it should have never resulted in a viceroy in the first place, let alone one that long,

We're still enemies, and your crimes are not forgiven.

Sir we have spilled the same blood on plenty of battlefields in our time here, Ladies and Gentleman, this is what we call true Honor and I for one am glad I can call you my friend.

[Rynka]

None of what happened to GATO over the past year should've happened anyway. Congratulations on doing the right thing.. eventually.

[Electron Sponge]

Hm, while it is a nice gesture to free me from the chains of eternal ZI, I shall not give you any praise until the same deal is offered to all of my comrades. I have repeatedly stated I am not leaving Vox until all my allies are given peace, and this includes FAN. I am a man of my word, and until you extend this policy to all of us, I will stand with my brothers in Vox and continue to fight. Our cause is just.

You also deserve no praise for freeing GATO, as it should have never resulted in a viceroy in the first place, let alone one that long,

We're still enemies, and your crimes are not forgiven.

Hear, hear. So say we all. No separate peace!

NPO, if you can release Starfox from ZI you can release us all and give us the peace we've been demanding for months. Our war against you now costs us nothing as we fund it from your own nations' coffers, but it costs you millions in aid payments to the nations we attack and the specialized squads you deploy to attack us who could never support themselves. It makes economic sense for you to make peace with us. If you're worried about us working to destroy you, there are plenty of bigger fish working toward that goal than us as I'm sure you already know. FAN and Vox Populi are the least of your worries.