Regarding the Brown Team

[heggo]

That this treaty was signed by the New Sith Order in good faith can easily be seen when you consider the highly constructed and irrational set of circumstances which would have to surround the alternative explanations. When you make allegations of this treaty being full of ulterior motives and treachery, did you consider all the things you would have to explain for those allegations to be logical? Allow me to shed some light on those questions:

If it truly is the intention of the New Sith Order to use this pact as a means of manipulating other alliances into defending us during some power play or another, why would we do it this way? Why would we not do it in a piece meal fashion, reaching out to many non brown alliances as well? Surely, there would be plenty of other alliances that would gladly join with us, if for no other reason than nostalgia. Why commence our allegedly evil plot on brown, a place where what one might call a slight trade shortage would surely hamper our recruitment efforts? Why would we not have simply joined a much larger treaty block and slowly manipulated our way up the ranks?

I suspect that no reasonable answers can be provided to these questions. Attempting to pigeon hole our alliance into whatever preconceived place you have for us will inevitably fail- our path is different. This would be evident to those who observe us rather than troll us.

[Wootmeister]

Actually that was a major problem that UPS 2.0 faced. GATO insisted on holding 2 Senate seats when clearly they didn't need more than 1 and other Brown alliances in UPS wanted to do more than share a single seat. That said, even if GATO had dropped their insistence on 2 seats and they had gone to other alliances in UPS 2.0, the consensus outside of GATO was that the Senators worked for UPS 2.0, not for their alliance, per se.

Currently two Amber Accords members each hold a Senate seat. If there is any sort of mass migration of large nations to Brown, it is going to be very difficult for GATO to keep the single seat they based on the new realities in that team.

At that time GATO was capable of keeping 2 senate seats with the votes we had. All we really wanted was the freedom to take as many seats as we were capable of. However, I wish that it had not degenerated into the argument it did, it was not worth it I think.

[Heft]

"you are not true until proven false"

It was at this moment that waves of nostalgia washed over me, filling my senses with the perfumes of a long-gone era. My vision glistened, my memory chortled, and for one happy instant, the world did not move forward.

You cannot have unity among a team without the willingness to support, defend, and fight for one another. See this pact not as the only way in which this can happen, but as a venue to create such camaraderie. It is not here to compete with, but complement already existing groups on the brown team.

This was from awhile back in the thread, but it outlines the basic point of the pact pretty well.

It encourages more nations (trades) on Brown because the color sphere is unified in defending itself. The same concept as CTC, though I don't believe CTC is color based. The same concept as NPO's ban on tech raiding red nations. You make brown a safer place to be and more nations will want to be there.

This is also a good explanation. It is in our every interest to strengthen and grow the Brown Sphere as much as we possibly can. We recognize that the most effective way to go about doing that is to foster an environment on the Sphere that makes nations and alliances want to be there. The Sphere has already gone a long way towards shoring up the economic relations between its alliances, and we intend to become more involved with those processes, whether through treaty or simple action.

Terra-Cotta will not primarily address those issues, but will help to create a political and military umbrella under which Brown alliances will feel safe to grow and to branch out. By putting this treaty forward and inviting the rest of Brown to participate, or others to move to Brown, we are making concrete our promise and commitment to these goals.

CD is great, I agree. That is one reason I was shocked to see them sign this so quickly. I do not hate NSO, but their actions so far have made me, and others, suspiscious. I believe it would be better if they first gained brown trust and friendship through non-mandatory defensive and ecnomic treaties.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you or addressing your posts directly, as that has obviously been done to death by this point. But none of our actions should give cause for suspicion. We have been reaching out to Brown alliances, and we have frankly and openly discussed the Sphere, ourselves, and what our own desires actually are. We have made a point of being open and straightforward. We have not asked for anything more than dialogue.

What we, and I personally, have learned (though I have been absent most of this week and will be for a few more days yet, largely), is that the Brown Sphere is home to an assortment of alliances that are competent and well-managed, with intelligent leaders who have a strong grasp of the fundamental realities of this world. I have been party to fruitful discussions and am sure that they continued while I've been away. We respect that dialogue, and we do not wish for these alliances which have been on Brown longer than us and are more intimately familiar with its history and perils to simply accede to our stated desires. If we are doing something wrong, then I fully expect them to tell us. We have made no pretense of being perfect or all-knowing. I am confident from my interactions with other Brown leadership and alliances so far that they will not shirk this type of dialogue. It is a process that is productive and refining, and which sees ideas introduced and improved upon. It is useful and has value because it improves the position of our Sphere.

We have no use for anyone who would whisper in dark corners.

[New Frontier]

I would like to take a moment to answer those with rumours, fears or schemes regarding the Sith. As anyone in either of our alliances can atest to, TGR and NSO did not have the best of first meetings. However, what began as lost members and OWF trolling turned into a friendship based on mutual respect. The Order has been nothing but courteous to us, and I expect nothing less in the future.

[Tom Litler]

I want to see GATO freed.

I'm sure that you do. Unfortunately for you, we're not the ones with the key to your friends' prison cell, if that's what you feel exists around them.

Admittedly, I haven't been present to hear exactly what peoples' concerns are regarding our alliance with Carpe Diem but I can certainly imagine what they might be and the only solution I can offer to you, gentlemen, is that you need only feel threatened or challenged by us if it is your intention to compete with us for control of the Brown sphere.

This need not be the case; any of our fellow Brown alliances are welcome to approach the Order and our CD brethren and we can always work out some sort of plan of cooperation.

[Ragashingo]

I'm sure that you do. Unfortunately for you, we're not the ones with the key to your friends' prison cell, if that's what you feel exists around them.

I totally agree. But I'll also happily note that your alliance is the first one in a long time to actually make any kind of issue of GATO's imprisonment. If more would follow your lead I think GATO might actually gain its freedom.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Ragashingo

[energizer]

I must say, this gave me the second biggest 'lol' of the day (first came from reading a summarized portion of the VE post protecting the old GGA member)

I member back in the old days of UPS 1.0, oh yeh, lovely times. Followed by UPS 2.0, not so lovely, and now here we are again with brown unity in UPS 3.0 with already 1/3 of brown a signatory in. Boy it gives me a chuckle.

Welp, good luck with that again brown. Though my faith is lacking in this one. I wonder if we'll see CATO a signatory in the future?

Edited March 21, 2009 by energizer

[crushtania]

He works fast, I'll give him that.

[RandomInterrupt]

The New Sith Order has 2.4M NS, and Carpe Diem has slightly over 3M NS.

Between the two of them they have approximately one-fifth of all Brown nations. (Yes, I excluded both alliance's non-brown membership from my search.) If NSO continues to shift its members to Brown, that is likely to increase significantly.

I don't know about you but when I look at an alliance like the NSO, I don't think "liability." Their statistics represent a solid core of good nations, and if I trusted their leadership, I would certainly be willing to entertain notions like MDP agreements.

(I'm not saying I distrust NSO's leadership here, BTW. I just don't know you guys very well yet. You've made more of an effort to talk to your neighbours on Brown, which is as it should be.)

Now you might disagree. But it's very clear that Carpe Diem have decided that NSO is trustworthy enough to enter into this pact with them. And I've come to know CD quite well, and I trust their judgment.

You, along with some other posters in this thread, appear to think that NSO is hoodwinking CD. All I can say to that is: You guys don't know CD. They've got great big brass balls, and they know what they're doing.

Just because they haven't been noticed before on the world stage - well...

Eventually everyone comes out of the shadows.

Thank you for making this post, Haflinger. It's nice to see some rationality in here after that guys rantings about... whatever that is. And you are correct, we have made the largest efforts to work with brown team alliances, but I hope we'll be able to expand out from there and work with other alliances, such as yours. We will keep the amount of treaties we sign to a minimum, but that doesn't mean we can't make friends.

Also in regards to that guy with the opinions, it is clear from the moment he found out about the formation of the NSO he decided we were bad guys coming in to do bad things. His very first contact with us was basically just irrational bullet points over why we are horrible people. I do not have an issue with well formed disagreements and discussion, but I have no tolerance for someone who has decided to oppose us for the sake of opposing us. Tyga is a great friend of mine, and I hold the STA higher than any other alliance in the game, so I can only hope the actions of one misguided poster will not tarnish our ties.

My suggestion to anyone who still thinks we are bad guys with the intent to try and "own" the brown team... come over and actually talk to us. A shocking concept, yes, but I think there'd be a lot more acceptance of what we are doing if folks actually looked at the facts and not irrational fears.

[lcdt94]

Destructiox - Triumvir of getting drunk

This title seems inaccurate. I have yet to see you inebriated on IRC. YOU WILL ALWAYS BE MY FORBIDDEN LOVE, CARPE DIEM.

/me sheds tear

[DonPinguino]

Congratulations to our CDT friends at CD

I am please to see brown unity taking a step forward, and I think some people need to re-read the treaty and gain some rationale.

B)

[Heyman]

Salve, Carpe Diem.

[Esukaresu]

I must say, this gave me the second biggest 'lol' of the day (first came from reading a summarized portion of the VE post protecting the old GGA member)

I member back in the old days of UPS 1.0, oh yeh, lovely times. Followed by UPS 2.0, not so lovely, and now here we are again with brown unity in UPS 3.0 with already 1/3 of brown a signatory in. Boy it gives me a chuckle.

Welp, good luck with that again brown. Though my faith is lacking in this one. I wonder if we'll see CATO a signatory in the future?

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

-Just had to do that -

You know what they say - 3rd time's the charm.

[Lycurgus Rex]

Seems the great one isnt so great..... He must think he is a jedi and that its his duty to rid bob of the evil sith.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Lycurgus Rex

[mperez0177]

bow down to the brown B)

[Tygaland]

Hmmm, so this is what happens when I take a day off?

Let me say a couple things.

First, I fully support The Great One's right to voice his opinion on matters he deems relevant to himself or his alliance. He is on the brown team and that is perfectly fine with me and also qualifies him to express his opinions on the matter as Terra-Cotta has an economic component which will affect him. By the same token it is often not what you say but how you say it and it disappoints me to see what I have seen here. Although in this case it appears Coloradia was goaded to some extent. Coloradia, I support yout right to voice your opinion but with that right comes responsibility. If you are threatened for expressing your opinion, let me know, especially if allies are involved so I can rectify any issue rather than have it splashed across the forum. If you have an issue with my comments, you can speak to me on IRC.

Second, Ivan, we are friends and I would have preferred you not threaten a member of my alliance like happened here. He disagrees with you on the Terra-Cotta pact and that is his opinion. He is entitled to it. The threat seemed to tip him over the edge and then the assorted bandwagonners jumped on his case because of it.

There is nothing more disappointing than seeing an ally and a member of my alliance slinging insults and threats at each other.

As allies of LEN and the NSO the STA does have valid reasons for monitoring the current issues on the Brown Team. I can understand the reasoning of both sides of the argument and would be happy to mediate any meetings on the matter if that would assist putting an end to this squabbling.

[Hymenbreach]

Quality reply Tyga. Strong and firm. My opinion is worth nothing, of course, but consider yourself respected.

[Bob Janova]

I totally agree. But I'll also happily note that your alliance is the first one in a long time to actually make any kind of issue in public of GATO's imprisonment. If more would follow your lead I think GATO might actually gain its freedom.

Fixed for truth . I think many alliances avoid GATO due to it not being sovereign. However, the NPO doesn't give in to pressure, so don't get your hopes up.

... though I don't believe CTC is color based

The CTC is restricted to the colours which have a Citadel alliance (Black, Aqua and Orange).

[Shakyr]

I'd also like to say to those people that if they do feel their voice needs to be heard here, they should be doing it themselves without fear of consequence as Veneke and Mechanus have done earlier in this thread.

I prefer to make my thoughts on things known in private. Much nicer way of sorting things out, and the threads are alot shorter . Also, FA has never been my strong point, so I tend to keep my posts on here to hails and congrats

So, what I want to say is, that you don't have to keep arguing. The issues that Amber Accords signatories have are being taken care of in private, and while I'm sure they appreciate your showing of support for them here, it is no longer necessary. I think of you as a friend, and I don't want to see you get defaced or hurt any more by this, and I hope they'd agree.

Before I do that though, I agree with Pyro, there is no need to continue the argument and also with Tyga's above post, in that I am disappointed myself in the goading and threatening of a former member of LEN (and a current member of an alliance you are treatied with), one who was originally just stating his opinion (as he is free to do so). Why people thought it better to continue it here, rather than go to private channels and sort it out, I will probably never understand.

I am also disappointed in Coloradia/The Great One for not going through private channels himself, to get the initial threat sorted out, instead of derailing this thread in an attempt to defend himself (even though I can understand the need to defend yourself, there are better ways to get things sorted out than such a public thread).

Hopefully we can work past this and work together with other Brown alliances to get to know and trust NSO, to the point where one day we may be treatied together (whether it be TCP, AA, Nexus or another treaty entirely). While I may not yet trust NSO, I trust CD and as such I look forward to getting to know NSO myself in the future, to the betterment of Brown.

Anyways, enough of that.

Congrats on the treaty.

o/ Brown (and chocolate )

[Tygaland]

Tyga is a great friend of mine, and I hold the STA higher than any other alliance in the game, so I can only hope the actions of one misguided poster will not tarnish our ties.

Yes, good friend Tyga who will sit back while a dozen NSO members insult, threaten and ridicule a member of my alliance for daring disagree with your opinion and then cast that member out so as not to tarnish our ties.

If NSO gave a rat's behind about their ties with STA they sure as hell wouldn't have done what they did here in this thread.

Yes, I get it. You are big now, you have influence on the brown team. But it seems respect is a one way street and the NSO comes across to me as a collection of big-headed loud-mouths who seem to think they can crap all over my alliance member publicly and then expect me to trot in like a good little puppet and kick out the member involved.

Ain't going to happen. Learn to show some respect and bring these issues up via private channels like any true ally would. The contempt you have all shown for my alliance sickens me.

[hammer]

Tyga: a model alliance leader in my eyes.

Fearless in defence of his members, truthful for better or worse with his allies.

Would that the cyberverse could see more of such character.

You have the respct of this nobody, Sir.

Edited March 21, 2009 by hammer

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

o7 Tygaland

That is all.

[Lord Rune]

Though my faith is lacking in this one. I wonder if we'll see CATO a signatory in the future?

Who knows what the future holds?

[Firestorm]

NSO...

Come on fellow sith.. Stay classy.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Yes, good friend Tyga who will sit back while a dozen NSO members insult, threaten and ridicule a member of my alliance for daring disagree with your opinion and then cast that member out so as not to tarnish our ties.

If NSO gave a rat's behind about their ties with STA they sure as hell wouldn't have done what they did here in this thread.

Yes, I get it. You are big now, you have influence on the brown team. But it seems respect is a one way street and the NSO comes across to me as a collection of big-headed loud-mouths who seem to think they can crap all over my alliance member publicly and then expect me to trot in like a good little puppet and kick out the member involved.

Ain't going to happen. Learn to show some respect and bring these issues up via private channels like any true ally would. The contempt you have all shown for my alliance sickens me.

I believe you have misinterpreted a great deal here. No one has stated anything against the STA. I have been very clear that if you felt Coloradia deserved no punishment that I would let the issue drop completely.

I do believe myself well within my "rights", since that is so important to everyone, to speak my opinion as well and to call out someone that is making baseless and factless accusations based on assumption and conjecture without any actual clear questions or concerns beyond "the NSO is suspicious so I will go out of my way to thwart their efforts at common defense".

That is absurd.