Siberian Tiger Alliance Declaration

[Alexio15]

If they would of had the ambition to try winning this war, would you of supported trying to win at least? Does CnG or Atlas see these attacks as worrying? If some CnG allies are allowed to burn while CnG relaxes, that leaves less potential allies for future conflicts to fight alongside.
 
Complaints and Grievances has been around forever, going back to the Grievances caused by MK, with a lot of complicit collective blood on their hands. Don't you think this could be the calm before the storm? Taking M16, TPF & STA out before CnG makes sense, divide and conquer. Although the real prize would be to take out any bloc which poses a threat to them, rather than any single alliances.
 
What blocs are even left? Citadel, SF, PB are all gone. Oculus is obviously the biggest, but CnG would seem like a bloc which shares heavy Doom Ties (thanks to some of you); with both Doom and CnG not being included or invited to Oculus. You are the competition. You need to be ready to compete to win. Naivety will cause you to lose before any war begins.
 
Soon targets will get scarce for Oculus & they'll be looking at new places to conquer.

Us and MI6 is a funny one. No one in cng gives a flying fuck if MI6 burn to a crisp. This is all self deserving. With my point on STA it still stands. Instead of actually coming back with half asset theories come back with something actually substantial.

[Sephiroth]

Us and MI6 is a funny one. No one in cng gives a flying $%&@ if MI6 burn to a crisp. This is all self deserving. With my point on STA it still stands. Instead of actually coming back with half asset theories come back with something actually substantial.

If TIO honored their Defense Pacts, do you think CnG would feel the same way about them?

[Pingu]

Mr Methrage, you talk a lot, but know less than you like to appear to. For instance, how do you know which entities were and were not invited to join the bloc calling itself Oculus? I suspect that you do not.

Speculating in public like this is fun. But prudent statespenguins keep their analyses and diplomacy in less echoey chambers. STA and ODN understand very clearly the strength of our relationship. We communicate with our allies directly, and that is what matters. The rest is sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[Sephiroth]

Mr Methrage, you talk a lot, but know less than you like to appear to. For instance, how do you know which entities were and were not invited to join the bloc calling itself Oculus? I suspect that you do not.

Speculating in public like this is fun. But prudent statespenguins keep their analyses and diplomacy in less echoey chambers. STA and ODN understand very clearly the strength of our relationship. We communicate with our allies directly, and that is what matters. The rest is sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I would be glad to discuss to the facts, discussing them with you would be a good source. Does ODN see no benefit in Friends > Infra anymore or does ODN no longer have that energy to come help an ally even if it isn't politically convenient? Would ODN help STA if the rest of CnG was willing to sign off on it?

[Chimaera]

Us and MI6 is a funny one. No one in cng gives a flying $%&@ if MI6 burn to a crisp. This is all self deserving. With my point on STA it still stands. Instead of actually coming back with half asset theories come back with something actually substantial.

 

You know, for someone who never does anything but talk a whole lot of s*&^, you do a surprisingly small amount of backing it up.

[kerschbs]

If TIO honored their Defense Pacts, do you think CnG would feel the same way about them?

GATO canceled their TIO treaty at NPO's request.

[Pingu]

I would be glad to discuss to the facts, discussing them with you would be a good source. Does ODN see no benefit in Friends > Infra anymore or does ODN no longer have that energy to come help an ally even if it isn't politically convenient? Would ODN help STA if the rest of CnG was willing to sign off on it?

This is not a press appearance, sir, and I am not here to answer questions. Please read what I said about venue etc.

[ditchboy00]

 

I never knew STA until this- and I have the utmost respect for them.

 

Per ODN... they are a lost cause... and when the world war comes they will come out saying "we are linked to such-and-such and will honor it"... and it will be a joke.

 

their allies are burning- for an actual cause and meanwhile ODN is touching up that hair spray for the world war.

 

bunch of dirt balls.

Not like it will matter since it appears you already have something against ODN but.... if the situations were reversed and NPO got attacked for being idiots and ODN defended NPO, we would not defend ODN on behalf of NPO.  (hurrah chaining clause)Does this make sense to you? ODN doesnt have to defend us on behalf of MI6//TPF. 

Edited October 16, 2015 by ditchboy00

[xR1 Fatal Instinct]

Yes because asking MDoAP allies to fight each other is the smart thing to do. Let's be honest all of CnG share a mutual level tie to NPO. STA understood that they would be hitting their Mutual level allies Mutual level ally. So they said to ODN we will not be activating the treaty we hold with you as it puts you in a really !@#$ position.

Its not only that, but the way NPO e-lawyered it, it would require the activation of the "oA" portion of the treaty, which in any affair is usually a stretch (unless you're NPO and want to get in on a curb stomp).

 

GATO canceled their TIO treaty at NPO's request.

How high?

[HM Solomon I]

STA remains in full control of its own actions regardless of what the Oculus treaty says. The Oculus treaty defines the relationship between its constituents, not between itself and the world--it extends no further than the AAs that signed it.
You may interpret STA's actions however you wish based in your relationship to each other, you cannot define STA's actions for them or make such boldly retarded statements as "STA can't determine..."

Aside from your fundamentally wrong understanding of how treaties work, it is hilarious to watch the pathetic way you're trying to e-lawyer your position in a war between a huge bloc and 3 isolated AAs. What's got ya scared?

Yes, the Oculus treaty does indeed bind only those who signed it.  That's obviously true, but this argument is based on a straw man, that because it only binds the signatories nobody else is even affected by it.  The treaty makes it clear that its signatories will automatically counter and provide support against anyone who attacks a signatory, so yes anyone can declare on only one bloc member but Oculus then must counter as a bloc, making any declaration of war on one of the signatories effectively no different than declaring war on the entire bloc.  The distinction between those two actions, declaring on one signatory versus declaring on the bloc, is rendered meaningless by this.

Edited October 16, 2015 by HM Solomon I

[hartfw]

Yes, the Oculus treaty does indeed bind only those who signed it.  That's obviously true, but this argument is based on a straw man, that because it only binds the signatories nobody else is even affected by it.  The treaty makes it clear that its signatories will automatically counter and provide support against anyone who attacks a signatory, so yes anyone can declare on only one bloc member but Oculus then must counter as a bloc, making any declaration of war on one of the signatories effectively no different than declaring war on the entire bloc.  The distinction between those two actions, declaring on one signatory versus declaring on the bloc, is rendered meaningless by this.

 

Unless it is AB that is hit.

[HM Solomon I]

 

Unless it is AB that is hit.

Damn it, that's supposed to be a secret. :P

[The Warrior]

 

Unless it is AB that is hit.

So much for Section 5 being redacted.. <_<

[ChairmanHal]

ODN...I would bet it was ODN that first initiated the conversation about friends on both sides to STA. I would bet that ODN told NPO/Oculus that they would "talk" to STA about the coming war and act as if they tried to prevent it but could not. I am sure ODN is talking a good game to STA about how bad they feel about the situation.

The ODN STA treaty is of strategic value only, not because of friendship. STA was sitting out there unconnected so the best thing to do with that NS is to tie it to that side of the treaty web. That is the only reason for the treaty. The treaty will never see ODN do anything for STA. STA however would go all out for ODN.

The big picture is quite simple. ODN literally goes from one master in MK to another master in NPO. If ODN were ever in a war like MI6 is in now they would go the way of Supernova X. This is why the Optional Defense Network does what it does.

 

Hopefully the past couple of major wars, along with the current conflict, will put a stake in the heart of non-chaining mutual defense, optional aggression treaties.  They have become ODoAPs with fancier script in the header, nothing more, and enable this sort of ODN/Valhalla type behavior.

[ditchboy00]

 

Hopefully the past couple of major wars, along with the current conflict, will put a stake in the heart of non-chaining mutual defense, optional aggression treaties.  They have become ODoAPs with fancier script in the header, nothing more, and enable this sort of ODN/Valhalla type behavior.

This is nothing like what Valhalla did to NG. 

[Lord Hitchcock]

This is nothing like what Valhalla did to NG.

Your right- odn feels a lot better about it.

Bottom line, ODNs allies are burning for defending their allies against a foreign aggressor.

a couple months from- odn will come out to the pointless, meaningless, world war- act all legitimate and show the world they will 'honor' whatever treaty saves their pixels.

This is a real war- not a pre-fabricated yearly cycle- and odn won't come in. But if it's a doom digpile they will honor it and then their FA tool will be on TAR bragging how odn was the game changer.

[kerschbs]

This is nothing like what Valhalla did to NG. 

Amen.

LH you're being too hard on ODN, they've fought in multiple losing wars over the last few years. The treaty is non-chaining and STA has said multiple times that if the situation were reversed (ODN defending NPO) they would be in the same position.

There have been quite a few screwed up things proceeding and during this war, this isn't one.

[Neo Uruk]

This is nothing like what Valhalla did to NG.

Or, and this is what Hal is referring to, what Valhalla did to Polar.

ODN has no reason to help MI6 or TPF. If STA gets dogpiled for months on end and ODN doesn't lift a finger to help them diplomatically, financially, etc. -- then you can talk.

[The Zigur]

If STA didn't ask for ODN's military assistance and if the situation was clearly communicated govt to govt beforehand I don't see what the issue is personally.

Of course people will believe what they want to believe (for some reason despite my war history some people assumed I would capitulate in July).

[Shurukian]

Your right- odn feels a lot better about it.

Bottom line, ODNs allies are burning for defending their allies against a foreign aggressor.

a couple months from- odn will come out to the pointless, meaningless, world war- act all legitimate and show the world they will 'honor' whatever treaty saves their pixels.

This is a real war- not a pre-fabricated yearly cycle- and odn won't come in. But if it's a doom digpile they will honor it and then their FA tool will be on TAR bragging how odn was the game changer.

 

I just want to point out -

 

Whether ODN defends STA is a decision that should be (and is) completely determined by ODN and STA, not external parties interpreting their treaty. If STA asks ODN not to engage, or tells them they will not request assistance, then that does not make ODN a bad ally - Just as it would not have make TPF bad allies if they would have been able to sit this out, as we had asked. It's a determination between the two parties, and if STA and ODN are satistifed with their relationship, then those external to them shouldn't be trying to change that.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Shurukian

[Neo Uruk]

also let's not pretend this was just an issue that sprang into war -- although MI6 hilariously botched the Sengoku thing with the horrible thread Sargun made

[ChairmanHal]

This is nothing like what Valhalla did to NG. 

 

Actually the treaty with NG was also a MnDoAP, but that is not exactly what I was referring to in my remarks.

 

Or, and this is what Hal is referring to, what Valhalla did to Polar.

ODN has no reason to help MI6 or TPF. If STA gets dogpiled for months on end and ODN doesn't lift a finger to help them diplomatically, financially, etc. -- then you can talk.

 

Not just to Polar but also Mi6.  Both ODN and Valhalla have found themselves in situations where technically they could simply ride back to the barracks and sit out wars, but it was then and continues to be perceived as an act of an alliance that wants to avoid war whenever possible and makes them look like politicians, not friends.

 

I recognize that sometimes winning on Planet Bob involves being political and sidestepping a conflict or entering a conflict on a side that is in your best long term interest even if it doesn't appear to be a good move in the short term.  But more often, it involves moving toward to the sound the guns, knowing that you're probably going to be losing some serious NS in the process.  That is what STA is doing now, and that deserves a tip of the hat by everyone and as this thing winds down, generous terms at the end.

[rileyaddaff]

 
Hopefully the past couple of major wars, along with the current conflict, will put a stake in the heart of non-chaining mutual defense, optional aggression treaties.  They have become ODoAPs with fancier script in the header, nothing more, and enable this sort of ODN/Valhalla type behavior.

i wouldn't group ODN in the same class as Valhalla in terms of honoring treaties. Valhalla as been in a class of their own since disorder war

[Saladjoe]

This is nothing like what Valhalla did to NG. 

Or like what Val did to Polar... or to MI6.

[ChairmanHal]

i wouldn't group ODN in the same class as Valhalla in terms of honoring treaties. Valhalla as been in a class of their own since disorder war

 

Then you don't remember the ODN I remember.  They were the originators of the "tactic" and have been criticized for it over a period of years.  In more recent times they seemed content to ride along whenever there was a fight, but very often the fights they have been involved in involved being part of a larger coalition that had an advantage.  It would be counter to utilizing politics over friendship not to show up and fight in such circumstances.  Valhalla used to be the sort of alliance that showed up for its friends whether the fight was a winning one or a losing one.  They were fortunate to be lead by people who were FA masters that knew how to make the best of bad situations--indeed, several Valhalla treaties and new friendships stemmed from losing wars.  When Valhalla reformed, that magic was lost.