keeology Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 The key assumption there is that they would make it into NG in the first place. If you had been witness to our app process, you would know that NG apps are not single-day turnkey affairs. It took me 3 days and five pages of posts even with no prior history. Tywin languished for a week before they finally denied him. Longnameislonger actually had to submit a second app after the first one foundered, and he had to answer pointed questions about Mushroom Kingdom & TOP, as well as talk to high gov on IRC. MCXA & LoSS members would be subject to the same process, and the wrong answers would get them banned from our forums. We're a quality, not quantity, sort of AA. Well, not quality per se, but you have to have certain qualities to join. Actually, that's right, we're a qualities AA. P.S. Also, you should know that your mom is actually a classy lady. You don't call her enough. You are right I'm assuming that they would get into NG.but my point stands you can replace NG with anyone else like NPO,NoR and anyone else. Question is would your opinion be the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duderonomy Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 You are right I'm assuming that they would get into NG.but my point stands you can replace NG with anyone else like NPO,NoR and anyone else. Question is would your opinion be the same No, if an AA let them in, my opinion would not be the same. For those AAs mentioned, my opinion would drop, but it is high enough already from our combined history that it would not generate the reaction that SNX has. My opinion is analogue, not binary. If an AA has positive opinion already, that gives it some leeway. A neutral or negative AA doesn't have far to go before they get a negative reaction. All sane people do this. A binary opinion is very abitrary and I generally don't care to associate with people that hold them. Context is key here. NPO and NoR have fought for us in the past and visit our forums. They don't throw fits at our antics and often join in the fun. That makes them quality allies. NG even semi-likes FARK and has gone neutral on NpO. Both acquit themselves well at our forums and that counts for something. It also helps that they are both semi-competent and fun opponents. SNX was formed by nations and AAs that we've had bad blood with in the past. It's even in the name. So they start at a net negative. It shouldn't be a surprise when we aren't exactly friendly towards them. They also have made numerous mistakes since their founding. That doesn't gain the sullen respect that Fark or NpO has. That lack of respect means that we won't even entertain friendly relations with SNX. We high-class. Not gutter trash. What can you do about it? Make your AA better. Get more seasoned people in your gov (like you tried with Unkajo, but don't let that blip stop you). Fight a few people on behalf of your allies and fight well. Otherwise, don't be surprised when the jesters come by to prick your ego. I'd be happy if you strengthened your AA, even as an enemy. It makes you a better challenge and would push us to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 It's on like donkey kong. I'll pull up archive stuff to hold a grudge. Just give me a few days to get those records I'm pretty much in 'old man yells at cloud' mode 99% of the time. Retirement, y'know. By bedtime I'll have forgotten what I was grumpy about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeology Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 I'm pretty much in 'old man yells at cloud' mode 99% of the time. Retirement, y'know. By bedtime I'll have forgotten what I was grumpy about. Well at least I'm not alone with this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxasm Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 You are right I'm assuming that they would get into NG.but my point stands you can replace NG with anyone else like NPO,NoR and anyone else. Question is would your opinion be the same To be fair, Pacifica does not have a walk-in-the-park admission process either. Perhaps not as... stringent... as NG, but we do deny sufficiently bad applicants. Unlike certain other alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 To be fair, Pacifica does not have a walk-in-the-park admission process either. Perhaps not as... stringent... as NG, but we do deny sufficiently bad applicants. Unlike certain other alliances. Curious who these certain other alliances are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeology Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 To be fair, Pacifica does not have a walk-in-the-park admission process either. Perhaps not as... stringent... as NG, but we do deny sufficiently bad applicants. Unlike certain other alliances. Not totally the point I was after. He got my point and I respect his answer. I made those assumptions base off of people getting in however the application process is. Just bypassing the admissions part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxasm Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 Curious who these certain other alliances are. I know CCC at one point literally had no admissions process at all, and I think other alliances have done similarly. TFD, when it existed, didn't ask about member's pasts. You could probably find more if you looked around.I was also implying a jab at SNX for having had you as a member, but I suppose that's technically not a part of "admissions". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 I know CCC at one point literally had no admissions process at all, and I think other alliances have done similarly. TFD, when it existed, didn't ask about member's pasts. You could probably find more if you looked around. I was also implying a jab at SNX for having had you as a member, but I suppose that's technically not a part of "admissions". Then you are making a jab against NPO since I was a Pacifican years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxasm Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) Then you are making a jab against NPO since I was a Pacifican years ago. People change. Not always for the better. Alliances also change, but often more slowly and with more trouble. Edited May 30, 2015 by saxasm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 People change. Not always for the better. Alliances also change, but often more slowly and with more trouble. That is a very slippery and weak response to my counter :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 Given that Pacifica would no doubt currently deny the shit out of you, your point is stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walshington Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 That is a very slippery and weak response to my counter :P Oh,sweet irony! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Given that Pacifica would no doubt currently deny the !@#$ out of you, your point is stupid. Polaris is closer to the original Will of Ivan Moldavi, and I like it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyaddaff Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Wooooo twyin is back everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxasm Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Polaris is closer to the original Will of Ivan Moldavi, and I like it that way. Sitting around worshipping the will of a dead nation doesn't seem too productive. Wooooo twyin is back everyone. Yay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbrecht Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Polaris is closer to the original Will of Ivan MoldaviThat's like, your opinion, dude. Polaris, is Polaris. Just the way i like it. While you might see the ghost of Ivan, i dont. To me it is more Grub Rnadmo and Daj than anyone else. Edited June 1, 2015 by Helbrecht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 That's like, your opinion, dude. Polaris, is Polaris. Just the way i like it. While you might see the ghost of Ivan, i dont. To me it is more Grub Rnadmo and Daj than anyone else. Comrade, I have never said it was anyone's view but my own. But, from my perspective as a former member of the other two Orders, and having served under Ivan, I don't think it is so unreasonable. I think solid principles trumps raw ambition for power, and the righteous ruler corrects his own household before seeking to conquer others. I think leaders like Dajobo have embodied the old principles of stewardship and leadership more than leaders like Farrin. I'm not making a slight against NPO either, I think they will readily agree that their focus is on the future and not the past. But for myself, I do not see all "progress" in this world as a good thing, but rather I adopt the pessimistic viewpoint expressed by Vladimir in the existential threat. And I would sooner safeguard the treasures of the past rather than embrace the chaos of the post-karma world. As was said in another realm: (OOC Faramir in LoTR)"For myself, I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens; not as a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor, and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 "....having served under Ivan...." A Minister or an IO could say that. A peon cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HM Solomon I Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 "....having served under Ivan...." A Minister or an IO could say that. A peon cannot. Or put in the context of another realm: "I lived in the U.S. in 1802, I served under Thomas Jefferson!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) "....having served under Ivan...." A Minister or an IO could say that. A peon cannot. Yes, NSO typically had issues with egoism as you display here. A minister is not higher than a "peon," both are cells in the body that perform different roles, and people like YOU are why NSO had so many problems after Ivan went inactive. It is also why I served in Ivan's State Security apparatus with people like Chron, because of idiots like yourself who were inherently disloyal due to your unrestrained egoism. Edited June 1, 2015 by Tywin Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Gorgoth Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I must stand by Tywin on this. Unless you're saying that he was above Ivan then he served under him. I'm not familiar with the Orders and their chais of command but I'd still imagine that their leader is in charge and even the lowest person serves under them. To quote Or put in the context of another realm: "I lived in the U.S. in 1802, I served under Thomas Jefferson!" Yes you would have served under him unless you were a foreign diplomat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 A fellow once said to me, "Semantics is my life." And I said, "I think you mean semantics are my life." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duderonomy Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 A citizen does not serve the U.S. President, no matter what Bill O'Reilly tells you. It's generally considered the opposite, which is why so many Americans act entitled when it comes to their government. Because the Constitution says they are entitled. However, a citizen does serve an emperor, so Tywin is technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. I also wouldn't consider AA members as citizens, unless you actually vote for your leaders. Most AAs follow a more militaristic framework because of the special hazards of life on Bob. This does not give Tywin a better viewpoint than someone who actually interacted with this Ivan dude or whatever. It's all so ancient that I'm surprised there isn't a Imperial library in his name that the orders could underfund. But SNX doesn't care about all that. They have wars to dodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) My interaction with Ivan Moldavi was the interaction that takes place between a student and teacher, though it wasn't as extensive as my conversations with Vladimir. I primarily enjoyed learning how a good security apparatus works, working with other "peons" to ensure the political stability of the alliance; I had previously developed the Imperial Security Bureau in IAA but it was not as refined as Ivan's work in NSO. I took the lessons learned and applied them in several other alliances, including the SHADOWS in LoSS/SNX. Edited June 2, 2015 by Tywin Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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