Supernova X Imperial Decree

[Dre4mwe4ver]

I don't see why either has to be wrong.
 
SNX may have made the wrong decision morally/from Bob standards but from a long term perspective it was (without the benefit of hindsight) the best move they could've made. A war would have been very bad for them when you take into all of the factors at play (rebuilding/no forums/structure/large group of active players just left/a few allies recently cancelled)

Do not pretend that this is an either/or situation and ignore the true dynamics of the situation in order to frame this course of action as the only reasonable one.

[Helbrecht]

In my personal opinion, when an alliance you are protecting feels it is ready to sign MD level treaties, that is when the protection agreement should be formally ended.

[Walshington]

In my personal opinion, when an alliance you are protecting feels it is ready to sign MD level treaties, that is when the protection agreement should be formally ended.

 

For sure -- but you should do that the moment they do, and not wait until they get attacked to cancel.

[Unknown Smurf]

Do not pretend that this is an either/or situation and ignore the true dynamics of the situation in order to frame this course of action as the only reasonable one.

I'm not saying their actions were reasonable, I am saying they were necessary to prevent a potential SNX disbandment.

[Helbrecht]

 

For sure -- but you should do that the moment they do, and not wait until they get attacked to cancel.

I thought that is what i said.

 

hrm, should have been clearer. Anywho, now its clarified.

 

edit: Also reading back here and another thread, i think this was in the works for two-three weeks? I guess their recent troubles left them with higher priorities (forums etc) than correcting an FA quibble.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Helbrecht

[Dajobo]

I'm still playing catch up but it seems to me protection was not cancelled when TSO where attacked, but when TSO refused a peaceful resolution. I know people like to take a side and argue, I do as well at times, but the fact is there's quite a difference.

 

I wish all parties the best going forward and support my allies decision.

[Walshington]

I'm still playing catch up but it seems to me protection was not cancelled when TSO where attacked, but when TSO refused a peaceful resolution. I know people like to take a side and argue, I do as well at times, but the fact is there's quite a difference.

 

I wish all parties the best going forward and support my allies decision.

 

Good perspective, Dajobo. Clearly, protection was cancelled both AFTER they were attacked, and AFTER they refused a peaceful solution.  Now, if TSO was told that should they refuse the peaceful solution they would be dropped, that might be a different story. Still not pretty by any means, but different. From context, I'm gathering that TSO were not expecting it either, but I wasn't in the room.

 

Bottom line, with TSC and NADC backing them up, the sum total of harm to TSO might well be negligible -- of course, it could be argued that with NADC and TSC in play, the risk to SNX's tenuous position was also negligible.  In any case, this is a PR nightmare that might doom SNX every bit as much as a war may have.   It should, in fairness, also be noted that views on the nature of protectorate treaties were not proffered by SNX members.

[The Zigur]

I believe this was a measured and appropriate response. There is work to be done by the new Regent, and he cannot be delayed by trifling conflicts.

[Lady Dakota]

I believe this was a measured and appropriate response. There is work to be done by the new Regent, and he cannot be delayed by trifling conflicts.

Very fitting that such a dishonorable statement would come from your lips, darling. Honor? Duty? You are clearly above all that. Aren't you sweet Tywin?

[AlmightyGrub]

Very fitting that such a dishonorable statement would come from your lips, darling. Honor? Duty? You are clearly above all that. Aren't you sweet Tywin?

 

It disturbs me to find myself in agreement.  It would seem SNX is not only completely clueless about the basics of diplomacy but also of the appearance of same.  Apparently we are allied to this by some direct connection but I am always appalled when people won't honour their agreements when the time comes to do so.  Treaties are written in such a way that there is little room for real movement, despite all the comical forms they take... basically they all share a common concept, if you are attacked, we will defend you.... without qualification/justification/bending to our will/accepting our condescending overtures or otherwise.

 

The mistakes are compounding and the best thing SNX could do right now is remain silent, stop feeding the laughing clowns of the OWF, and get on with rebuilding whatever it is they are trying to build for whatever that is actually worth.  The last thing they require is people trying to justify their actions with statements like that of my comrade Tywin.

 

Step 1 should have been cancellation as soon as the protectorate signed a higher level treaty then there is no need for any further steps.

[James Spanier]

Suddenly, Polar.

[Helbrecht]

Suddenly, Polar.

What can i say. It must have been some party last week. I dont remember anything beyond the blue punch bowl, two sips and a vague memory of Tywin seranading the coat stand.

[The Zigur]

Very fitting that such a dishonorable statement would come from your lips, darling. Honor? Duty? You are clearly above all that. Aren't you sweet Tywin?

You throw those words around without knowing what they mean. Let me know when you have decided to sacrifice a 200 member alliance, your alliance, to fulfill the defense of an incompetent ally.

[Icewolf]

You throw those words around without knowing what they mean. Let me know when you have decided to sacrifice a 200 member alliance, your alliance, to fulfill the defense of an incompetent ally.

And we come back to the idea that the great and might SNX would need to sacrifice itself, generally meaning to suffer greatly or die, in order to take on a sub 1 million alliance alongside multiple allies. I mean....really?

[Freelancer]

Or we could view this a little differently, outside the box if you will, lets speculate shall we. 

Anyone in the know regarding brown team politics can tell you Atlas and ASI both fell under attack last month, not your normal attack that is easily countered with a 500 ton nuclear warhead, this attack was much more diabolical, it's goal change Atlas' constitution and rifle dissent all through the rank's, the dissidents do not succeed !

Alexio regained power, simultaneously ASI has a member under it's roof who magically pulls off an election race that in comparison would be the equivalent if Ivan Moldavi returned to the red team.

The common denominator for both situations? MI6 currently houses Atlas' dissents, as for the hacked dibold machines that were destroyed, they all had the same label.
 

 

About Mango Federation: The Mango Federation is for all mango loving and producing nations. We are keen to maintain good relations with other nations and seek mutual trading. We are protectorate of the "North Estonia"(ASI). The Mango Federation has special relations with the MI6 as we are long term tech sellers to the MI6.

Lets fast foreword to this announcement and the person who made it.
 

 

(5/20/2015 6:15:49 PM) rocky approved Krihelion in their request to join the alliance Supernova X.
(5/20/2015 3:41:56 PM) Krihelion requested to join the alliance Supernova X.
(5/20/2015 3:41:47 PM) Krihelion left the alliance MI6.

Who then is given a job as Legion's right hand man and 5 days later publically makes the Foreign Affairs Dept of SNX look so incompetent that their own allies are questioning why there allies.

Now some call me crazy, a southern redneck who has no idea the magnitude of such a theory.


Then again if someone would pick up a history book they would realize this is nothing new for me or Xiao.

I'll let everyone ponder that theory with your morning coffee. 



 

[Duderonomy]

I think your theory goes a bit far, Freelancer, but I've never been one to avoid throwing gasoline on a tire fire.

Is this why you went Nazi on us at the Non Grata forums, Krihelion? Or was that just an attempt to get banned? Cause joining MI6 was far more efficient. Wish you had tried that first.

A hard worker, but a difficult personality to say the least. Good luck, SNX.

[the rebel]

You are ignoring it. It has a 48 hour cancellation clause but until that it is mandatory. So for the next 35 hours you are failing to fulfill your treaty. 

The irony of an IRON member chastising an alliance about ignoring a treaty.

Pot calling kettle black.

[kingzog]

*kingzog picks up his first coffee of the day and reads the news....

 

 

<snip>

 

My first thought was dismissive, as if responding to:

 

 

But then I thought about it and....

 

 

And now, on to the comics....

 

Oh Ziggy, will you ever win?

[Lady Dakota]

You throw those words around without knowing what they mean. Let me know when you have decided to sacrifice a 200 member alliance, your alliance, to fulfill the defense of an incompetent ally.

I'm sorry. When exactly did using logic equal incompetence? Any time one signs a treaty, it's a gamble. It always will be given the nature of Planet Bob. Since you seem to lack the understanding of honor, let me explain it to you a different way. Basically SNX just went all in in a game of blackjack. Their chips consist of their military. The dealer, TSO just beat their 20 with a 21 And goes to war. SNX refuses to pay. It doesn't matter that the dealer is not the smartest one in the room. What matters is SNX sat down and agreed to the terms of the game with a treaty. It's a pretty simple concept. 200 member alliance or not, a treaty is still a treaty. They promised something they are refusing to deliver.

Nobody is fond of a liar. Once someone lies to you.... You can still be friends, but you never quite trust them the same after that.

[Dre4mwe4ver]

I'm not saying their actions were reasonable, I am saying they were necessary to prevent a potential SNX disbandment.

And I am saying that it is ridiculous to propose that this is could be viewed as necessary by any rational actor.

[James Wilson]

What I've found most enjoyable about this subject, is the great lengths some SNX members and their friends are going to redefine what a protectorate agreement is.  I can only imagine what that conversation was like when they came up with this "plan" to try and save what's left of the ashes of their PR.  

 

edit: changed an ooc word

Edited May 26, 2015 by James Wilson

[Neo Uruk]

I would see MI6 coming up with such a teaplot if it didn't hinge on Unkajo of all people being successful.

[rileyaddaff]

You throw those words around without knowing what they mean. Let me know when you have decided to sacrifice a 200 member alliance, your alliance, to fulfill the defense of an incompetent ally.

Your saying that Polar sacrificed itself in defense of it's incompetent ally (SNX) in the Doom War. Does Polar still view said ally incompetent?

[HM Solomon I]

This is such a train wreck.  It's actually worse than ignoring an MDP because it's a protectorate.  Trust is the currency of this world because it's the currency of politics and diplomacy.  An alliance viewed as not holding up its agreements is unlikely to find it easy to strike new ones or maintain existing ones, unless it has something truly incredible to offer.  I don't think SNX has much if anything to offer.

 

I know its hard for you to fathom, because you have never been in a real alliance due to your severe autism, but there is much more to this world than mindlessly blowing away all your stats. This is probably why you have never had a nation capable of inflicting actual damage. 

 

SNX is undergoing massive internal changes, and recovering from not having a forum for more than a month. We have nothing against TSO, but we were not going to rush into a war with some of the most stubborn fighters on CN over some revenge. 

 

Tell me again how Pacifica is not a real alliance.

Edited May 26, 2015 by HM Solomon I

[the rebel]

Tell me again how Pacifica is not a real alliance.

 

Indeed he should of phrased it as "never been in a real alliance long enough"