Daenerys Targaryen Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 You have it backwards just ask IRON. The 100% turnover in their Council since they entered the war is actual tangible evidence that they know they messed up this war. I wasn't referring to this war and how exactly have IRON messed up this war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrJLa Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Is it the TOP/Umb coalition, the TOP/Polar coalition, the TOP coalition, or the Polar coalition? You guys really ought to get together and align your conspiracy theories. Polar's like Tettaglia, and TOP is Barzini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure why the ;people who want the terms won't claim them.l There's nothing wrong with wanting to make sure a defeated enemy is completely crushed. It's the way of Umb/TOP etc. They leave no one in decent shape to fight against them for years down the road. The one time there was a chance to do decent harm to that sphere and bring about some equalization below say, 120k, where the vast majority of nations on the planet reside, the NPO/AI coalition didn't have the spine for it and gave white peace after a relatively short war. That entire front should have continued for at least another month before any terms were seriously discussed. One side had a major numbers advantage and once side had a major war chest advantage that needed eaten into. Not much could be done with the super tier nations but there was lots of headway being made against the large number of nations that started the war from 80-120k during that time frame. At the time of the peace, Brehon and QH pretty much seemed to just white peace without really consulting many people on our side once AI and some others weren't willing to commit to the stupid extended war plan against Umbrella. From what I know, it took quite a few by surprise on the EQ side and it was saw as Brehon shoving through white peace, likely to help out CnG/NG. I am not sure who came up with it or why the extended war term for Umbrella came about. The entire war should have went longer. DH/NPO went for 5 months. This one went for two. Once again, hats off to theTOP/UMB coalition. When you guys win, you crack heads and spill guts and make examples that last for years, you don't leave people with great war chests and the ability to rebuild and roll you in 6 months. The numbers don't really reflect what you're saying about eQ being relatively short. Using the dates on the wiki: eQ lasted 2 months and 9 days. This war has lasted 3 months and a day. Grudge lasted 2 months and 8 days Dave lasted 1 month and 24 days Bipolar lasted 2 months and 15 days DH/NPO (NPO front segment) lasted 3 months 9 days. Grudge and Dave were both shorter than eQ. Bipolar was only a few days longer.. This war and DH/NPO would have been much shorter without the delays haggling over terms, about the same length as all the other wars. The warchest vs. number of nation thing you bring up still stands. But then again so does the fact that in many of the other wars a larger portion of the loosing side's coalition strength was hiding in peace mode. I ran the numbers on these terms earlier in the thread, and it's clear they aren't crippling by any stretch, and would only delay NPO's overall rebuilding a week or two. They are more symbolic than anything. Edited February 2, 2014 by Azaghul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 You are giving too much credit to our ability to roll people. We weren't really that capable. In the last global war you organized and coordinated a coalition to roll Umbrella. I think whatever terms NPO might of mentioned to Umbrella were likely a stalling tactic rather than serious terms as well. If you offer white peace as soon as the war starts, it ends before it began almost. Although just mentioning terms earlier on in a war, but not actually implementing them shouldn't be reason to receive such terms from that alliance when they get the chance. If they're not implemented in the final peace, they don't count imo. If NPO really wanted to impose those terms Umbrella keeps mentioning, they could of. Especially if Umbrella agreed to them like they claim. No one has made the claim that the terms were a stalling tactic, and every other account of what happened contradicts that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakamitai Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Is it the TOP/Umb coalition, the TOP/Polar coalition, the TOP coalition, or the Polar coalition? You guys really ought to get together and align your conspiracy theories. It's the Polardoxella coalition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 agian when was that... The point is the DH war was a purpose to make us more transparent and to adapt to current times. We did so as you can see. In fact now after that this war is now becoming hippocritical to what you people did not want back in them days. You are now imposing a limit currently the very things you fought against back in the day. Just goes to show whom is spinning and whom has actually changed. And i know you will again minimize what you are doing now :) Who fought against? And again, NPO pushed for terms last war but could not get anyone on their own side to go through with them. So... Doch, stop tripping balls and accept that the most recent wars aren't the same as the old wars. FAN and Fark's pre-empt during Grudge was not concluded with reparations. No one but NPO has proposed reparations in this war either. So who is the one tripping balls mate? History should never be ignored, however I'd rather ignore it entirely then live in it forever. Have spankings in the past really festered in your subconscious that bad? I am amused considering how much your side has brought up the past of other alliances in this very thread. Amusing the moment NPO's rather horrific past is brought up, it is all of a sudden taboo to bring up the past... If you guys want to make this war a punishment about what happened 5 years ago, then go ahead and make it. I can accept the position that we will constantly need to be punished again and again for the same thing, and act accordingly. It would be a perfectly valid thing for you to do imo. Nah, I want to punish NPO for their actions now. Oh, so you mean NpO and TOP aren't trying to create a unipolar power structure? What unipolar structure? You realize that Aztec/DBDC still exist right? You realize that the NPO/NG/CnG sphere would still exist right? Are you really that ignorant? Asking your allies if they would help you support your allies isn't commonplace? I'm fairly sure NSO did the same while telling me they didn't agree with an action I was pursuing. Maybe that only happens in the corner where you want to ensure you get as much support for an ally as possible, instead of throwing half your coalition to the wolves with hard fronts. What you said makes absolutely no sense... If I wanted to ensure I got as much support for an ally as possible, I would be asking my allies to support my ally... Thus, I would be helping to build a coalition to support my ally (since apparently my ally would be utterly incapable of doing so themselves...) I may be an optimist, but I like to think these circles of revenge can be broken with a gesture of leniency from both sides given similar positions. I think NPO and Umbrella's positions are pretty much reversed this war, but NPO decided against imposing any terms in the previous war. Also I don't think NPO has really come back for revenge after the Karma War, DH-NPO War and whatever other wars they've lost since then. In the Equilibrium War they pushed through white peace for the other coalition, even though many of their allies were unhappy with it. NPO did not decide to be lenient. NPO pushed for terms and failed to find anyone on their side willing to go through with said terms... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucemania Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Personal i think a lot of things happen in any negotiations. What happens is the end result and in that case it was White peace. One thing i would of thought happened is if any leader came to the table with terms of any kind it would of been a collective effort and they would not of even been offered if there was some kind of majority agreement. Spinning it and saying that it was only NPO i think is being a little presumptuous in saying it was only NPO at the time. So the spin on that to me anyways does not work and not really worth the effort to even justify common sense. Edited February 2, 2014 by brucemania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Personal i think a lot of things happen in any negotiations. What happens is the end result and in that case it was White peace. One thing i would of thought happened is if any leader came to the table with terms of any kind it would of been a collective effort and they would not of even been offered if there was some kind of majority agreement. Spinning it and saying that it was only NPO i think is being a little presumptuous in saying it was only NPO at the time. So the spin on that to me anyways does not work and not really worth the effort to even justify common sense. You realize that it was like 2 alliances (NPO/AI) who pushed through the white peace without consulting most other alliances on eQ's side, including allies. That and if it was a collective effort, then NPO would have realized that there was no support for those terms and would never have offered them to Umbrella. It was only after the terms were offered that NPO found out there was no support... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevolutionaryRebel Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 They are more symbolic than anything. To be symbolic they have to you know, have some kind of actual meaning. Reports on why terms are being applied seem to keep changing every time some dunce posts in this thread. Take the not-so-fine gentlemen above that's bitching about NPO easing the pressure on Umbrella at the end of eQ, while you/TOP's umbrage is more at their role in targeting Umbrella during that conflict. [spoiler][/spoiler] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorSoul Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 PSA: Every point made in this thread from this point on (and before this point, frankly) is moot. :| Please, just let this one die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 PSA: Keep arguing, it's fun when they squeal.Actually, don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 He really doesn't know, though. It took VE what, three wars under Goldie to finally not bum rush in like apes? NSO has literally never been on the winning side of a global war. I hardly think you have any leg to stand on to criticize others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 NSO has literally never been on the winning side of a global war. I hardly think you have any leg to stand on to criticize others.counterpoint: karma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 NSO has literally never been on the winning side of a global war. I hardly think you have any leg to stand on to criticize others. All being on the winning side takes is having two conflicting treaties before a war and choosing the one that is on the winning side. Some AA's are better at that than others ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 counterpoint: karma No one associates NSO with Karma. They rode the bandwagon briefly, but didn't earn its participation medal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 No one associates NSO with Karma. They rode the bandwagon briefly, but didn't earn its participation medal.So we don't have to count VE's loss in Dave I guess. Good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 NSO has literally never been on the winning side of a global war. I hardly think you have any leg to stand on to criticize others. NSO is just a club for the old boys. This is why the general membership of the NSO should remove these incompetent and weak leaders and replace them. The true strength of the Sith is to always have strong leaders and kill those who become to weak such as their current leaders. All being on the winning side takes is having two conflicting treaties before a war and choosing the one that is on the winning side. Some AA's are better at that than others ;D Obviously yous ain't that good at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 NSO has literally never been on the winning side of a global war. I hardly think you have any leg to stand on to criticize others. By deflecting my point rather than addressing it, I can only assume you agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoADarthCyfe6 Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 PSA: Every point made in this thread from this point on (and before this point, frankly) is moot. :|Please, just let this one die. I have to say though, it's pretty impressive that this thread has lasted to 60 pages. It's been a while since we've seen this happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 NSO is just a club for the old boys.And girls*We aren't sexist pigs despite what Hereno thinks :colbert: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krashnaia Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 And all this drama comes to an end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amossio Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 And girls* We aren't sexist pigs despite what Hereno thinks :colbert: indeed, it's also a club for the old girls hehe neo, you granny :P . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorSoul Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 NSO is just a club for the old boys. This is why the general membership of the NSO should remove these incompetent and weak leaders and replace them. The true strength of the Sith is to always have strong leaders and kill those who become to weak such as their current leaders. Of all the people to be harping on incompetence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) In the last global war you organized and coordinated a coalition to roll Umbrella. No one has made the claim that the terms were a stalling tactic, and every other account of what happened contradicts that point. Terms which were given to soon without a plan to enforce them I wouldn't consider an organized or coordinated attempt to roll Umbrella. The war started with Anarchy Inc getting raided and deciding Umbrella deserved to get hit back, rather than ask them to please not do it again as Umbrella began to expect every alliance to do when their nations would attack them. NPO and other alliances came to their aid, potential terms were mentioned prematurely and then decided against. I won't claim to know their exact thought process when offering the terms, but they likely wanted some terms on the table rather than none so negotiations on peace could progress, instead of them just telling the other side the war goes on indefinitely with no terms being offered and peace talks being pointless. Who knows if they expected Umbrella to accept the terms so fast or who's idea the terms were, but if Umbrella wasn't so quick to accept them those terms would of effectively stalled the negotiation until better terms could of been agreed upon by the other coalition. Edited February 2, 2014 by Methrage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tick1 Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Terms which were given to soon without a plan to enforce them I wouldn't consider an organized or coordinated attempt to roll Umbrella. The war started with Anarchy Inc getting raided and deciding Umbrella deserved to get hit back, rather than ask them to please not do it again as Umbrella began to expect every alliance to do when their nations would attack them. NPO and other alliances came to their aid, potential terms were mentioned prematurely and then decided against. I won't claim to know their exact thought process when offering the terms, but they likely wanted some terms on the table rather than none so negotiations on peace could progress, instead of them just telling the other side the war goes on indefinitely with no terms being offered and peace talks being pointless. Who knows if they expected Umbrella to accept the terms so fast or who's idea the terms were, but if Umbrella wasn't so quick to accept them those terms would of effectively stalled the negotiation until better terms could of been agreed upon by the other coalition. We accepted the terms quickly to help our allies and associates. Something you'd expect an alliance as well known as NPO to do when things are so grim. However best luck post war and on to new ventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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