i would like to offer peace talks for woto

[Commander shepard]

I ran GLoF's milcom in Equilibrium, bcortell and hartfw ran all of TOP front. It's a whole lot more authoritative coming from us than dude that glanced at TOP's first page every now and then and kinda remembers.

I'm sure your stats on the top 40 in the early stages of the war are correct, except for the second one though as he left the AA and attacked other alliances.

[Neo Uruk]

Good point.
If NPO paid XYZ 20b in reps that would mean NPO down 20 and XYZ up 20. This would be a difference of $40b. So it highlights even more how false the claim is.

Eh, that's a fair statement. I'd say it's more a confusion of terminology than a blatant lie, though.

[d3mon]

 

I ran GLoF's milcom in Equilibrium, bcortell and hartfw ran all of TOP front. It's a whole lot more authoritative coming from us than dude that glanced at TOP's first page every now and then and kinda remembers.

 

I agree, TOP's front was one of the best fought in EQ.

 

 
It's this simple if you like PM so much, stay there! If you really object to PM then leave. 
 

 

So, how long are those nations supposed to stay in PM? Forever?

 

I love how you decided to pick one of the meanings of reparation to argue that this is indeed different. I will provide another definition

 

"Something that is done or given as a way of correcting a mistake that you have made or a bad situation that you have caused."

(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reparation)

 

While, I share the frustration that you expressed with NPO's actions in EQ. It looks like you are trying to punish NPO for not letting you destroy their banks (and their ability to rebuild), which is rather strange as you confessed that they are not the primary target of this war.

[HM Solomon I]

Eh, that's a fair statement. I'd say it's more a confusion of terminology than a blatant lie, though.

True, reps would punish one party and reward another while these terms would just punish one party; but either way they're still harsh.

[Rayvon]

I don't have time to address the rest of your post, but I have not heard this nor have I heard of anyone that was told this. I have only ever heard Pacifica tell people they were being asked the equivalent of paying 20 billion in reps.

 

 

 

Good point.

If NPO paid XYZ 20b in reps that would mean NPO down 20 and XYZ up 20. This would be a difference of $40b. So it highlights even more how false the claim is.

 

The misuse of terminology doesn't 'highlight even more how false the claim is' when the misuse was in trying to say 'an estimate of 20 billion' whatever .. The 'whatever' term is what was mistakenly being used, the value is what is really being discussed. 20 billion reps. 20 billion punitive damages. 20 billion Mogars in GPA. Whatever.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Rayvon

[Gingervites]

 

I ran GLoF's milcom in Equilibrium, bcortell and hartfw ran all of TOP front. It's a whole lot more authoritative coming from us than dude that glanced at TOP's first page every now and then and kinda remembers.

You failed to acknowledge bcortell's leash holder

[hartfw]

I'm sure your stats on the top 40 in the early stages of the war are correct, except for the second one though as he left the AA and attacked other alliances.

 

The one that was marked as not staggered?  You have been consistently wrong in every single thing you have said so far this thread, why stop now?

Edited January 7, 2014 by hartfw

[Williambonney]

lets make them pay 10b to nations of my choosing in tech/cash, and we'll call it even?

If they are to be delivered by the Enola Gay or the Bockscar then I'd be happy to ensure delivery.   :ehm:

[Mogar]

If they are to be delivered by the Enola Gay or the Bockscar then I'd be happy to ensure delivery.   :ehm:

I need $ for the RAGE flag fund!

[Branimir]

No one has asked for any reps despite Pacifica telling many people they were being asked for 20 billion in reps

 

Incorrect. We clearly no where stated we were asked for reps, but rather that a punitive measure was suggested as a possible term which comes to that monetary value. 

 

Please, let us keep to what has been stated.

 

NPO do not object to PM, nor do they object to using it for months at a time, as long as their allies and enemies are burning while it happens.

 

We object to disallowing our ability to rebuild after war via the means of punitive usage of extended peace mode on nations that are key for that.

 

That the war continues perhaps is more on the fact we are yet to get official terms and negotiations started.

It's this simple if you like PM so much, stay there! If you really object to PM then leave.

 

NPO has immeasurably smaller rate of long term p.m. usage then, for example, many alliances on your side.

 

Calling us out on it, is missed.

 

In Eq NPO screwed over most of the people

 

I thought this war was not about EQ. Interesting.

 

I say those to you NPO, nice and clear so you don't get it confused any longer. NSO was our target during this war. That same NSO gave it all, and while we still don't have a friendship with NSO, they have earnt some respect. You however are users and are losing more and more of our respect daily. Stop the lies and the !@#$%^&*. Stop telling people you are so hard done by and face up to the fact that many of the people you used are pissed at you. There is no difference if we are at war or the war ends tomorrow for your bankers, not one red cent let alone 20 billion dollars. They will remain in PM either way. The only people affected are the rest of Planet Bob, as usual.

 

I understand you are ranting, but be mindful when you talk about the alliance with by far most wars fought, damage received, damage dished out. Easily accessible statistical information (including the ones about our 100k plus nations, or ex now) proves we fought hard, well and are still with widening positive damages ratios.

 

This was painful to read.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Branimir

[General Gabriel]

Latest just in, my sources have revealed that peace talks are set to officially commence at 12pm GMT!! You heard it here first, could this be the beginning of the end? I suspect we'll have an answer to the £20bn reps question before the day is out.

Is there some sort of peace prize we can give Mister Black for bringing these parties together?

[General Gabriel]

My sincere apologies, the above appears to be a lie, Rotavele told me that he had this on good authority but it turns out he had faked logs. He said that if I told everyone it was him he would deny having ever spoken to me before, however I think it's more important that the truth is out there.

Edited January 7, 2014 by General Gabriel

[The Zigur]

Oh I tried to help. This was an 11 pages disaster

 

I think it's the best thread of the new year bro.

[gunzzz]

Rota faking logs... Again?! Nah...

[General Gabriel]

Rota faking logs... Again?! Nah...

He's done this before? Apologies I shouldn't have been taken in so easily. I've just returned from a four year hiatus, and he seemed like a trustworthy guy at first.

Although now you come to mention it, he did pretend to be a woman in the first messages until something started to smell fishy (no pun intended), then he owned up.

[Mr Director]

Oh I tried to help. This was an 11 pages disaster

For what its worth, this thread was actually quite a lot of fun for me.
Between the outstanding unity of the NpO coalition and presentations of massive reps to Pacifica that haven't actually been offered but have been put on the table but aren't as big as they seem to be but aren't as big as they seem because they don't exist yet, as well as post war evaluations of TOP during the eq war by a member of an alliance that didn't fight against it(at least I don't think it did), this thread is the best I've seen since bucks original posts.

PS: Not trying to be derogatory to any one side here, but thats seriously what this thread looks like to me. A big, lovable, CN style cluster*****

[iamthey]

The misuse of terminology doesn't 'highlight even more how false the claim is' when the misuse was in trying to say 'an estimate of 20 billion' whatever .. The 'whatever' term is what was mistakenly being used, the value is what is really being discussed. 20 billion reps. 20 billion punitive damages. 20 billion Mogars in GPA. Whatever.

There is a always the option to pull everyone out of peace mode (we'd never see it coming). Obviously the tech and infra damages inflicted there and the time it takes to rebuild would be dwarfed by the TWENTY BILLION dollar penalty they would otherwise suffer. This is so nefariously clever I'm surprised it hasn't been seriously considered!
 

Tech Importation from 9/15-10/15 for those PM'd NPO nations above 90k:

magus rules http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=132439 1700
lithium http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=488644 1600
walt schmidt http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=233123 1500
kingdom of dark http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=29470 1500
mr breeze http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=49773 1300
arcades057 http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=90642 1200
chilerelleno http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=113984 1200
desfuhrer http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=53947 1200
yohon http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=38931 1080
acidnine http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=329212 900
guido http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=97698 900
emperor svb http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=256346 800
lord strider http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=84844 600
alexit http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=132119 600
woodrow http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=169033 0
albertspeer http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=195263 0
sable http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=18453 0
sludgemonkey http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=22897 0
eclipse363 http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=152802 0
lenadius http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=134146 0

Yeah those definitely look like banks.

[IYIyTh]

 

 

So the true goals for this war finally come out then?  Punishing NPO for ever entertaining the concept of a war led by one of their MD level treaty partners?

 

Doesn't seem like a very neutral opinion :P

[RevolutionaryRebel]

There are three options here. One is to present terms that focus on the instigator of the conflict (NSO). Another is to present terms that punish NPO for upholding treaties. The last is white peace

 

People deny NPO was the target, then offer white peace to everyone EXCEPT pacifica. If you want their banks out of peace mode that badly TOP, do everyone a favour and make them fight IRON instead.

[bagpuss]

Now I have addressed the "reps" part of their claim lets look at the 20 billion number.
NPO has 35 nations who have spent the entire war in peacemode with and average of 12,046 Infra each. While they stay in PM they lose about 9% on their collections until they exit. They still keep 91% and the 9% adds to much less than half of the number they are sprouting.
 

Utter Bullshit

 

The 6th day in peace mode you have a 50% tax collection penalty applied so each nation would be losing at best 50% of their collection and in reality more than 50% as there is also the happiness penalty to factor.

[Letum]

Now I have addressed the "reps" part of their claim lets look at the 20 billion number.
NPO has 35 nations who have spent the entire war in peacemode with and average of 12,046 Infra each. While they stay in PM they lose about 9% on their collections until they exit. They still keep 91% and the 9% adds to much less than half of the number they are sprouting.

Where do you come up with this 9% figure? A nation staying in peacemode for more than 5 days gets a massive collection penalty that is over 50%, even before the happiness hit. For most nations with high infra, it is a struggle to even break even.


 

Where this gets amusing is in the fact they are already in PM by choice! They have no objection to PM and they have no issue of denying the use of their aid slots for comrades and allies at war. They have stated many times they may as well stay at war and in PM. So here is where we get to the nub of it all. NPO do not object to PM, nor do they object to using it for months at a time, as long as their allies and enemies are burning while it happens.
 
It's this simple if you like PM so much, stay there! If you really object to PM then leave.

Look, you know this is a silly argument. We are not arguing that peace mode is so awful and we hate it. We are arguing that forcing our nations to be in peacemode post-war prevents them from aiding our lower tier, thus stopping us from rebuilding.

Reducing our rebuilding ability is the entire point of these terms, and they are effective in doing so.

Though, if you have an argument as to why keeping an alliance's upper tier from aiding nations post-war would *not* have a significant and negative impact on their reconstruction, I would be glad to hear it.
 

In Eq NPO screwed over most of the people who were helping them with this tactic. People were told NPO were going to war and and asked our help. They told us once the war was well under way while everyone else was burning that they were NOT going to be using their bankers. This was wonderful... We were all collectively in there using all of our nations while they made sure at the end they'd be in a strong position at the end. Then when their allies on the other side started taking too much damage, who were already sprouting while that war was still going that Polar was next, they ordered a mass peace out.

Ok. You have a grudge for us not "fighting hard enough". I can respect that. Is this officially a reason for wanting to punish us?  
 

I say those to you NPO, nice and clear so you don't get it confused any longer. NSO was our target during this war. That same NSO gave it all, and while we still don't have a friendship with NSO, they have earnt some respect. You however are users and are losing more and more of our respect daily. Stop the lies and the !@#$%^&*. Stop telling people you are so hard done by and face up to the fact that many of the people you used are pissed at you. There is no difference if we are at war or the war ends tomorrow for your bankers, not one red cent let alone 20 billion dollars. They will remain in PM either way. The only people affected are the rest of Planet Bob, as usual.

Just for clarification, causing 9m NS of damage is not enough of an effort on the part of Pacifica? How much damage would be?

[Azaghul]

Look, you know this is a silly argument. We are not arguing that peace mode is so awful and we hate it. We are arguing that forcing our nations to be in peacemode post-war prevents them from aiding our lower tier, thus stopping us from rebuilding.

Reducing our rebuilding ability is the entire point of these terms, and they are effective in doing so.

Though, if you have an argument as to why keeping an alliance's upper tier from aiding nations post-war would *not* have a significant and negative impact on their reconstruction, I would be glad to hear it.

Assuming a NS threshold of 50K NS or infra of 5K, this would keep about 40 of your nations in peace mode out of 291.  Looking at your total stats, about 200 of your nations have at least some economic wonders and around 150 have close to a full set (excluding the high infra wonders.)  Excluding the 40 peace mode nations, you still have at least 100 of your nations that should be able to rebuild quickly.  Many of those nations should have enough left over warchest to rebuild themselves and start aiding out immediately.  The others, if they are competent, shouldn't take very long to get there.

 

 

Speaking personally, if it were up to me (it's not) this war would end in grey peace (just an admission of defeat / surrender) across the board.  But I think y'all are greatly overstating your case here.

[Commander shepard]

 

The one that was marked as not staggered?  You have been consistently wrong in every single thing you have said so far this thread, why stop now?

 

 

Emperor Genesis 181042 17500 20303 Came out late, was let back to PM

 

This is wrong as he did not come out late, he was out hitting nations on other AA's.

 

http://cybernations.lyricalz.com/war?nation1=153389&nation2=

[AlmightyGrub]

Where do you come up with this 9% figure? A nation staying in peacemode for more than 5 days gets a massive collection penalty that is over 50%, even before the happiness hit. For most nations with high infra, it is a struggle to even break even.


 

Look, you know this is a silly argument. We are not arguing that peace mode is so awful and we hate it. We are arguing that forcing our nations to be in peacemode post-war prevents them from aiding our lower tier, thus stopping us from rebuilding.

Reducing our rebuilding ability is the entire point of these terms, and they are effective in doing so.

Though, if you have an argument as to why keeping an alliance's upper tier from aiding nations post-war would *not* have a significant and negative impact on their reconstruction, I would be glad to hear it.
 

Ok. You have a grudge for us not "fighting hard enough". I can respect that. Is this officially a reason for wanting to punish us?  
 

Just for clarification, causing 9m NS of damage is not enough of an effort on the part of Pacifica? How much damage would be?

 

A nation staying in peace mode as of right now is facing the penalty given that these nations have been there for quite some time.  No one forced those nations into the penalty phase, you seem quite happy to have them there, but yet you want to cry about the economic penalties when you have already caused the damage yourselves?  Get a clue, we are not responsible for your 50%, you are and the longer the war goes on at your insistence the greater their self-imposed penalty becomes.

[hartfw]

 

This is wrong as he did not come out late, he was out hitting nations on other AA's.

 

http://cybernations.lyricalz.com/war?nation1=153389&nation2=

 

War started 2/11?  If you say so, okay.  But for the rest of us, it started about a month earlier.