A Declaration of Peace

[sir pwnage]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1347967970' post='3031414']
You are wrong, his (or anyone with a government position) opinions will carry more weight than something posted for a regular member wherever their post, this is how things always worked in cyberverse and even in other realms.
[/quote]

Hi, I'm from INT. I'm a founding member, been gov for most of our existence, and probably know about 300x as much about my alliance as you do. I've swayed votes about FA policy when I was the sitting Treasury Commissar, and had people disagree with me on matters of how to do rebuilding or tech deals while I was in the same position. In both instances, my ability to vomit large walls of text defending my position had infinitely more effect on whether people listened to me than did my rank as a government member in the alliance. And in both cases, do you know how much my vote counted for when the measure went before Congress? One. One vote. Just like everybody else.

You're wrong.

Thanks for playing.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1347937532' post='3031330']
1 member opinion in an alliance of 100, carried 1/100 of weight. That is , of course, an enormous amount of weight... if you ignore the other 99.
[/quote]
Well, I guess if we want to play that game of spin we can. Perhaps Int is different, but I generally look to my MoFA for his opinion and hold it in highest regard in foreign affairs, as it should be. Though, my alliance also honors it's treaties. So, you may well be right.

[Ardus]

Congratulations to Nordreich on your victory!

[PuliSher]

That was a long turtle tour... See you in 4 months!

[img]http://cybernations.nordreich.eu/images/smilies/stoner2.gif[/img]

[Wobblies]

[quote name='sir pwnage' timestamp='1347972272' post='3031423']
when I was the sitting Treasury Commissar, and had people disagree with me on matters of how to do rebuilding or tech deals while I was in the same position. In both instances, my ability to vomit large walls of text defending my position had infinitely more effect on whether people listened to me
[/quote]
Ya I remember having to sift through one of your soul crushing wall of text about how collectivism is not efficient-I guess it's all about the pixels eh?

[D34th]

[quote name='sir pwnage' timestamp='1347972272' post='3031423']
Hi, I'm from INT. I'm a founding member, been gov for most of our existence, and probably know about 300x as much about my alliance as you do. I've swayed votes about FA policy when I was the sitting Treasury Commissar, and had people disagree with me on matters of how to do rebuilding or tech deals while I was in the same position. In both instances, my ability to vomit large walls of text defending my position had infinitely more effect on whether people listened to me than did my rank as a government member in the alliance. And in both cases, do you know how much my vote counted for when the measure went before Congress? One. One vote. Just like everybody else.

You're wrong.

Thanks for playing.
[/quote]

I don't care about how your joke alliance works, the fact that you can't fight against is: In cyberverse the public opinion of a government member of ANY alliance carry much more weight than an opinion of a regular member, mainly when said opinion is voiced in OWF and when said government is the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1347941616' post='3031347']
Nicely written but one question, if it was a pittance of aid, why didn't LSF just man up and pay reps for it instead of choose war? If y'all did not want war, don't make that the only option available. LSF only has LSF to blame for all that you said. Not NoR.

Also, if INT had any balls, they would have hit NoR regardless of MK. So, if I was in LSF, I would be asking for far better allies than the ones you currently got.
[/quote]

I mean, I think it's obvious to everybody that LSF was looking for a war. That doesn't necessarily excuse NoR for not practicing due diligence before outright declaring war, however. Talking to LSF's milcom coordinator who is not considered a formal gov position doesn't constitute anything on behalf of the LSF, and I stand by that belief. Although the outcome would have admittedly been the same - LSF was in it to fight a war, even though there actually wasn't ever a formal vote on going to war. A few members got a bit out of control, and the rest of LSF chose to back them up and jump in rather than make a mess of things by paying reps and then getting into war later.

I agree with you that INT should have gone in. Their hesitance was compounded by cowards within their bloc and outside of it, who ended up pressuring them to the point of dishonoring their treaty, so I don't really blame them completely. If INT had allies willing to back them up, I think they would have gone in. Everybody wants to blame Trotsky because he is their leader, but if things were up to him this peace wouldn't have been signed because INT would have been at war. So I'll take the time here to clear that up. Although I don't get why they're still trying to e-lawyer the whole "we didn't dishonor it, LSF was aggressive" thing still. That was a stupid party line thrown out by allies who betrayed them, but I suppose it helps them save face and I don't think they're all bad people who all deserve the reputation the alliance has from this incident. Either way, this war was killed by e-lawyers and the fact that LSF didn't have as much political pull as the people who didn't want the war, who were too busy being scared that their time was coming. Unfortunately for them, stopping this won't save them.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

This is very amusing for several reasons - many of them being mentioned by Hereno - and this "peace" should have happened a few months ago.

[Vinzent Zeppelin]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1347984126' post='3031457']
I mean, I think it's obvious to everybody that LSF was looking for a war. That doesn't necessarily excuse NoR for not practicing due diligence before outright declaring war, however.
[/quote]

So what you're saying is, LSF wanted a fight with us, so they did practically everything short of posting a formal war declaration, but shame on us for giving them what they wanted? Lol, k. Also, for the record, we spoke to two individuals, neither of whom ever told us anything like "go talk to x, he's our diplomatic guy".

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1347950521' post='3031400']
Does this mean I can speak for you?
[/quote]

Indeed. You have discovered the one flaw in my otherwise bulletproof scheme.

-Craig

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Vinzent Zeppelin' timestamp='1347989477' post='3031469']
So what you're saying is, LSF wanted a fight with us, so they did practically everything short of posting a formal war declaration, but shame on us for giving them what they wanted? Lol, k. Also, for the record, we spoke to two individuals, neither of whom ever told us anything like "go talk to x, he's our diplomatic guy".
[/quote]

It's not quite that simple, close enough though. NoR played a blinder in this, can't take that away from you.

[White Chocolate]

Congrats on peace. Nice to see.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1347906582' post='3031124']
And so it ends.


You fought well, Elesufis. May the future bring you better things.
[/quote]

And better allies.

[shwampy]

good fight NoRders!

You all fought like gentleman...well except for the chap who nuked me everyday like clockwork, even when my NS was negligible

see you in four months.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Vinzent Zeppelin' timestamp='1347989477' post='3031469']
So what you're saying is, LSF wanted a fight with us, so they did practically everything short of posting a formal war declaration, but shame on us for giving them what they wanted? Lol, k. Also, for the record, we spoke to two individuals, neither of whom ever told us anything like "go talk to x, he's our diplomatic guy".
[/quote]

Yes. LSF is a terrible alliance filled with dirty leftists, why would you give them something that they wanted? Shame on you, communist sympathizer.

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='pd73bassman' timestamp='1347933528' post='3031311']
Seriously though, good to see this retarded war over, looks like LSF bowed to the only and only true God in Nordreich
[/quote]

Congrats on your victory Bassman.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1347950521' post='3031400']
Does this mean I can speak for you?
[/quote]

You would make a much better spokesperson.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1347952735' post='3031402']
The only place his opinion should carry weight is the place it has influence...with INT's voting public. Apparently there were other things that the voting public considered at the time that nullified his opinion. Among that I believe the opinions of other high ranking officials. Something you seem to have neglected to do...cherry picking as someone said.
[/quote]

You should realize that has never been true in CN. Ever. A government member's words speaks for the entire alliance. Always has, always will. Those trying to state otherwise are trying to spin what happened. BTW, if his words did not represent the alliance, why didn't INT defend LSF? So, let's face it, regardless of what you want to say about the quote, INT's actions put more weight behind it than anything else.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1347984126' post='3031457']
I mean, I think it's obvious to everybody that LSF was looking for a war. That doesn't necessarily excuse NoR for not practicing due diligence before outright declaring war, however. Talking to LSF's milcom coordinator who is not considered a formal gov position doesn't constitute anything on behalf of the LSF, and I stand by that belief. Although the outcome would have admittedly been the same - LSF was in it to fight a war, even though there actually wasn't ever a formal vote on going to war. A few members got a bit out of control, and the rest of LSF chose to back them up and jump in rather than make a mess of things by paying reps and then getting into war later.

I agree with you that INT should have gone in. Their hesitance was compounded by cowards within their bloc and outside of it, who ended up pressuring them to the point of dishonoring their treaty, so I don't really blame them completely. If INT had allies willing to back them up, I think they would have gone in. Everybody wants to blame Trotsky because he is their leader, but if things were up to him this peace wouldn't have been signed because INT would have been at war. So I'll take the time here to clear that up. Although I don't get why they're still trying to e-lawyer the whole "we didn't dishonor it, LSF was aggressive" thing still. That was a stupid party line thrown out by allies who betrayed them, but I suppose it helps them save face and I don't think they're all bad people who all deserve the reputation the alliance has from this incident. Either way, this war was killed by e-lawyers and the fact that LSF didn't have as much political pull as the people who didn't want the war, who were too busy being scared that their time was coming. Unfortunately for them, stopping this won't save them.
[/quote]

I like your analysis of the situation. Though, NPO and GATO are allies of mine. If INT had gone in, I am almost certain GATO would have backed them if needed. Fact is, LSF did not have the pull but this has episode has hopefully fractured some relations close to a breaking point.

Though, I thought LSF did not have a "true" gov and thus everyone spoke for the alliance equally. This would mean that no matter who NoR talked to, they would hold the same power within LSF as any in the "false" gov? I am confused now. Does LSF have a "true" gov or not?

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1348004253' post='3031546']


Though, I thought LSF did not have a "true" gov and thus everyone spoke for the alliance equally. This would mean that no matter who NoR talked to, they would hold the same power within LSF as any in the "false" gov? I am confused now. Does LSF have a "true" gov or not?
[/quote]

No, we don't and that means that we pretty much have to take responsibility for the words/actions of each other. As you say, if we had a government then people would only expect us to take responsibility for their words and actions.

[Nemhauser]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1347984126' post='3031457']
Talking to LSF's milcom coordinator who is not considered a formal gov position ...
[/quote]
LSF always told me they didn't had a government.

[Anarquista]

the only legitimate 'governmental' authority LSF has is the delegate's council,
which means that the entire membership of the LSF has given their input in a discussion/voting process

our elected co-ordinators don't have authority, and are only actively organizing in that department or facilitating between alliances

[Sabcat]

In my role as Co-War I facilitated a war with NoR. Am I doing it right?

[magicninja]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1347981401' post='3031451']
I don't care about how your joke alliance works, the fact that you can't fight against is: In cyberverse the public opinion of a government member of ANY alliance carry much more weight than an opinion of a regular member, mainly when said opinion is voiced in OWF and when said government is the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
[/quote]

Maybe it's because I live in a democratic alliance but it absolutely matters how the alliance works. Now maybe when an alliance has absolute rulers the opinion of one person matters. I will certainly pay more attention to Brehon than a regular body republic member but it is different in a democratic alliance. Why? No one person is responsible for the official opinion and policy of the alliance. GATO for instance has a congress that is the sole power when it comes fo treaties or war. In reality those are the people whose opinions should matter. We are a softer democracy than INT which polls the entire alliance. All our "high" gov members are are go betweens between other govs and the actual power. It is easier for our "high" gov members to swing the vote to what they want. So yeah maybe our "high" gov holds a little more sway than direct democracies. In INT though the real power lies in the membership as a whole...so taking the word of any member...gov or not...is ridiculous. The only opinion you can claim as official from them is from what comes out of a vote and not any one member. Get it?

[D34th]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348021354' post='3031651']
Maybe it's because I live in a democratic alliance but it absolutely matters how the alliance works. Now maybe when an alliance has absolute rulers the opinion of one person matters. I will certainly pay more attention to Brehon than a regular body republic member but it is different in a democratic alliance. Why? No one person is responsible for the official opinion and policy of the alliance. GATO for instance has a congress that is the sole power when it comes fo treaties or war. In reality those are the people whose opinions should matter. We are a softer democracy than INT which polls the entire alliance. All our "high" gov members are are go betweens between other govs and the actual power. It is easier for our "high" gov members to swing the vote to what they want. So yeah maybe our "high" gov holds a little more sway than direct democracies. In INT though the real power lies in the membership as a whole...so taking the word of any member...gov or not...is ridiculous. The only opinion you can claim as official from them is from what comes out of a vote and not any one member. Get it?
[/quote]

I'll repeat what I said for you: I don't care how joke alliances like yourself works, in cyberverse government members opinions always had and always will carry much more weight than regular members ones, period. And even if I cared, government members of democratic alliances opinions would care even more weight since they were elected to REPRESENT regular members.

[sir pwnage]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1348025544' post='3031684']
I'll repeat what I said for you: I don't care how joke alliances like yourself works, in cyberverse government members opinions always had and always will carry much more weight than regular members ones, period. And even if I cared, government members of democratic alliances opinions would care even more weight since they were elected to REPRESENT regular members.
[/quote]

Ok, so all democratic alliances are jokes... that's interesting.

Elected officials in INT hold no power until a crisis is declared and the war council activated. Anyone who interprets their word as the will of the alliance is fooling themselves. Not that I'd be surprised if you chose that path. I know how you hate letting facts get in the way of your argument, but here they are one last time:

The only person who can authoritatively tell the world the will of Congress is the General Commissar AFTER a vote has been taken on the particular subject. If you can't understand that, you will never understand the culture of The International. All of our allies know, accept, and work with these conditions. Everyone who we've ever fought and negotiated with has been able to grasp this concept. Between those two groups, that's a large enough portion of the Cyberverse that I think your claim that our governing system is a "joke" is patently false.

[D34th]

[quote name='sir pwnage' timestamp='1348028226' post='3031698']
Ok, so all democratic alliances are jokes... that's interesting.

Elected officials in INT hold no power until a crisis is declared and the war council activated. Anyone who interprets their word as the will of the alliance is fooling themselves. Not that I'd be surprised if you chose that path. I know how you hate letting facts get in the way of your argument, but here they are one last time:

The only person who can authoritatively tell the world the will of Congress is the General Commissar AFTER a vote has been taken on the particular subject. If you can't understand that, you will never understand the culture of The International. All of our allies know, accept, and work with these conditions. Everyone who we've ever fought and negotiated with has been able to grasp this concept. Between those two groups, that's a large enough portion of the Cyberverse that I think your claim that our governing system is a "joke" is patently false.
[/quote]

I didn't said that all alliances are jokes, I said your alliance and GATO are jokes and not because they are democratic but because your alliances lack a spine, free will and sovereignty. That said not matter how hard you try to spin, wont change [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=113153&view=findpost&p=3031451"]the fact that I stated[/url].