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Vinzent Zeppelin

A Declaration of Peace

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[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348110175' post='3032068']Yes we still fought against it[/quote]

Nothing says "we totally support whatever decision you make" like doing absolutely everything you can, including getting pressure from alliances outside of your bloc, to force a bloc member into making a decision they might not want while simultaneously having triumvirate-level gov bashing the MDoAP allies (not to mention, the longest allies) of your MDAP allies from day one.

Edited by Hereno

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[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348110175' post='3032068'] That said CnG told INT we'd roll if they did.
[/quote]



How did CnG react when MK pulled their promise made to Trotsky and Int came to CnG asking for their help?

[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif[/img] magicpirate

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[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348110175' post='3032068']
INTs leaders who supported LSFs actions fought tooth and nail for LSF within CnGs halls. Trotsky should have gotten support before telling anyone anything. That said CnG told INT we'd roll if they did. Yes we still fought against it and even expressed our concerns to the people who would vote for or against war. In the end INT as a whole did not vote to activate an optional pact. LSF and Trotsky should not have jumped the gun. I don't see how INT as a whole is at fault in the slightest.
[/quote]

I know how much !@#$ Trotsky been through on this. and i'm personally not holding any of it above anyone else in CnG's head. i'm sure if INT had a pair and rolled yall would of rolled behind them. but INT didnt and so yall didnt have to or need to.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1348110888' post='3032073']
How did CnG react when MK pulled their promise made to Trotsky and Int came to CnG asking for their help?

[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif[/img] magicpirate
[/quote]

I'm not happy with it. I'm not gov and I don't mingle much so I don't know how CnG feels as a whole. From what I knew weeks ago I'd say ODN probably doesn't care/ doesn't mind, TLR is slightly miffed, GATO is disgusted, and INT is livid. That's a guess though...I have no idea and can't speak for them. If you want GATO's official opinion create a thread in your embassy addressing the question to the GATO congress. If any action (we have no ties to cut to mk/dh anyway) it would havet to go through them though I'm sure old man krabs and Dre4m have their thoughts.

Hereno we would have supported any decision made, through force had it come to it. Doesn't mean we can't offer up our opinion on the situation and let the voting public know our feelings. A good ally usually asks their allies opinion anyway. I know we do and we respect those opinions.

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[quote name='Alex Thompson' timestamp='1348075874' post='3031865']
I originally decided to keep myself from posting in this thread, but I feel you need to be reminded of some things.

Being a member of both The International and the LSF while these things were happening, I feel I'm in pretty good standing to tell you what happened and why LSF held/holds INT in a different light to NATO.

The first thing to address is INT's involvement in the run up to the war. LSF was told by an INT government member (who will go unnamed) before the war started that it was an absolute certainty that they (and by extension CnG) would back LSF up if war came between LSF and NoR. This member then continued to egg LSF on throughout the "rogues, what rogues?" incident. (Irrelevant to the NoR war, but something to add too, this member also egged LSF on with the IRON apology). So, this wasn't some big LSF masterplan to manipulate INT and their allies - if anything, LSF were the ones who were manipulated. LSF also had somewhat of a "special relationship" with The International. Being both leftist alliances and with many of INT's members originating from LSF, it is ENTIRELY understandable that LSF would expect INT to be there with them as quickly as they could. These are the core reasons for LSF's frustration with the International.

At first, NATO gave us their support. They told us that they would come in for us if requested. Upon hearing that INT would not be coming in to support us, we immediately told NATO and the rest of our allies not to come in, because we knew we were going to get absolutely destroyed and understood how it would look if we asked these allies to come and follow us in being ground into the dust. We calculated, perhaps wrongly in retrospect, that asking NATO to come in without INT and CnG's help would end in almost certain defeat. So we decided to keep it one-on-one with NoR for the mean time. Nearly all (or perhaps all of them, I can't quite remember) of our other allies told us they were prepared to come in for us if requested, which explains why we're not bothered about UCR, SWF etc.

Once again, the same INT member came to us and told us that if we stuck it our for a few months, INT would come in after their war had ended and they'd had a chance to rebuilt. So once again, we carried on with our actions, spurred on by these encouraging words. And yet again, we were let down by the alliance for the second time.

So, Rush, did you just not know the full story? Or have you just decided that you're prepared to lie about us just to have a go at us?
[/quote]

As an outsider its very very hard to diferentiate between whats spin and whats fact... but of all the comments I've read here I must admit this one reads like its got a very solid notion of truth about it. Apreciate your take on things here mate.

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[quote name='keeology' timestamp='1348111511' post='3032080']
I know how much !@#$ Trotsky been through on this. and i'm personally not holding any of it above anyone else in CnG's head. i'm sure if INT had a pair and rolled yall would of rolled behind them. but INT didnt and so yall didnt have to or need to.
[/quote]

There is a fine line between courage and stupidity....this was stupidity on LSF's part. The war they wanted to run for their own political ideology (not really shared by 3/4 of CnG) would need a lot of planning to make it winnable. Yes, I would only like to be party to aggressive wars I know we can win. Sun Tzu told me to win before I fight. Launching headlong into a war with 0 planning against a side you could lose to is not brave...it's stupid.

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[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348111738' post='3032082']
I'm not happy with it. I'm not gov and I don't mingle much so I don't know how CnG feels as a whole. From what I knew weeks ago I'd say ODN probably doesn't care/ doesn't mind, TLR is slightly miffed, GATO is disgusted, and INT is livid. That's a guess though...I have no idea and can't speak for them. If you want GATO's official opinion create a thread in your embassy addressing the question to the GATO congress. If any action (we have no ties to cut to mk/dh anyway) it would havet to go through them though I'm sure old man krabs and Dre4m have their thoughts.

[/quote]

I can appreciate honesty.

Thank you magicpirate

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[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348111738' post='3032082']
Hereno we would have supported any decision made, through force had it come to it. Doesn't mean we can't offer up our opinion on the situation and let the voting public know our feelings. A good ally usually asks their allies opinion anyway. I know we do and we respect those opinions.
[/quote]

To be fair to you, I thought GATO handled everything pretty responsibly and reasonably from what I've seen and been told, especially considering their/your position. But to say that TLR and ODN especially merely offered up their opinions and acted as normal allies would is pretty dishonest. You admitted yourself that ODN most likely doesn't really care at all that MK completely $%&@ed over their blocmate. That in and of itself holds more weight than most anything I could have said about the matter.

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Hereno I also said I don't really know how ODN feels. I make my guess off how ODN felt about the LSF situation and how close they are to MK. For all I know they are slightly miffed or even pissed or happy even.

While our gov usually doesn't do anything very public (they send me) I was vocal about not liking the notion of going in for LSF. I wasn't Rush vocal but I was there.

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[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348111738' post='3032082']
I'm not happy with it. I'm not gov and I don't mingle much so I don't know how CnG feels as a whole. From what I knew weeks ago I'd say ODN probably doesn't care/ doesn't mind, TLR is slightly miffed, GATO is disgusted, and INT is livid. That's a guess though...I have no idea and can't speak for them. If you want GATO's official opinion create a thread in your embassy addressing the question to the GATO congress. If any action (we have no ties to cut to mk/dh anyway) it would havet to go through them though I'm sure old man krabs and Dre4m have their thoughts.[/quote]

An honest post at last. Thanks, magicninja.

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[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1348060288' post='3031804']
I think you're reading into my comment too much. I was just trying to understand how their policy works when it comes to actually getting involved in a war and how they operate. As far as an underlying cause, I've got a piece of MK twice now, I'm fairly satisfied.
[/quote]
You must be some fat cat to have needed a second helping. :v:

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[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1348111738' post='3032082']
...TLR is slightly miffed
[/quote]
Some of us are actually more than miffed, but opinions do vary from member to member.

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