A Brief Announcement from Umbrella

[Courland]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333590389' post='2948476']
And I'd agree with you, but does the treaty remain active when one party wishes it not remain active? That sort of black and white thinking gets a lot of innocent alliances pummeled for nothing.
[/quote]

This is an asinine argument. OF COURSE, the MONGOLS wanted Kaskus to join in the fun. However, we're a polite bunch of semi-retarded barbarians, and we did not want our new treaty partners to feel they'd allied themselves to a corpse. We gave them an honorable way out. They declined because they have more honor in their little fingers than the rest of us have combined.

MONGOLS will forever owe Kaskus a debt, and we greatly hope to be able to repay it someday.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Courland

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Courland' timestamp='1333605925' post='2948553']
This is an asinine argument. OF COURSE, the MONGOLS wanted Kaskus to join in the fun. However, we're a polite bunch of semi-retarded barbarians, and we did not want our new treaty partners to feel they'd allied themselves to a corpse. We gave them an honorable way out. They declined because they have more honor in their little fingers than the rest of us have combined.

MONGOLS will forever owe Kaskus a debt, and we greatly hope to be able to repay it someday.
[/quote]

I'm not arguing with you that Kaskus isn't being honorable. I'm simply saying that if one party asks the other to remain out, that mutual defense clause becomes optional.

[Courland]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333606193' post='2948555']
I'm not arguing with you that Kaskus isn't being honorable. I'm simply saying that if one party asks the other to remain out, that mutual defense clause becomes optional.
[/quote]

It's always optional. Treaties are only as good as the alliances you sign them with.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333606193' post='2948555']
I'm not arguing with you that Kaskus isn't being honorable. I'm simply saying that if one party asks the other to remain out, that mutual defense clause becomes optional.
[/quote]
Not in a legal sense, not this one:

[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1330048491' post='2927176']
Article 2.

We will defend each other should the other come under attack.[/quote]

MONGOLS was attacked, Kaskus defended.

[King Baloneous]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333606193' post='2948555']
I'm not arguing with you that Kaskus isn't being honorable. I'm simply saying that if one party asks the other to remain out, that mutual defense clause becomes optional.
[/quote]
mutual defense and optional aggression pact. mdoap. mongols waged a proxy way with goons when they delivered aid the poor, tech raided nation at the heart of this conflict. Mongols waged a proxy war with goons by offering aid to the nation. goons dow was a response to a mongols refusal to own up to the proxy war that was being waged and offer compensation (a token sum of reps, or a real effort at posting something enjoyable in our mercy board). Goons will not stand for aggression and will defend our sovereignty at all costs. If goons was the aggressor here, then kaskus would be honor bound to defend their brothers-in-arms. however that is not the case and any attempt to paint goons as the aggressor is twisting words and events to suit their own political agenda. given that kaskus entered this war under an optional aggression pact, and they will be held accountable.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='King Baloneous' timestamp='1333600266' post='2948535']
you really should not be encouraging the honorable mongols and kaskus into ezi with us. I wouldn't expect the same kind of forgiveness you saw during rogue fest 2010 to be applied here.
[/quote]

Psh, your sense of ability is greatly impaired. Sard should rein you in for such arrogant talk, as if you have the ability to impose anything but your own bs upon CN.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Canik]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1333607030' post='2948558']
Not in a legal sense, not this one:



MONGOLS was attacked, Kaskus defended.
[/quote]

I think as far as GOONS is concerned MONGOLS attacked by aiding that nation. I would be interested to see proof as to whether not the aid was purposefully. If it was, then GOONS's argument has merit. If not, then GOONS were going out of their way to be the aggressors. It may have already been posted somewhere and I may have missed it but all I've seen is claims that it was purposeful by a GOON or two.

Either way, Kaskus is not so unpredictable. Given the opportunity to fight, they'll take it 99 times outta 100. If you aren't attached to your pixels they make excellent allies.

And I'm not sure how or if this is relevant, but I would like to remind Europa/Kaskus that Europa did fight for NEW in the NEW-DF war against impossible odds. Even though we were told we could stay out.

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333611421' post='2948567']
I think as far as GOONS is concerned MONGOLS attacked by aiding that nation. I would be interested to see proof as to whether not the aid was purposefully. If it was, then GOONS's argument has merit. If not, then GOONS were going out of their way to be the aggressors. It may have already been posted somewhere and I may have missed it but all I've seen is claims that it was purposeful by a GOON or two.

[/quote]
Despite the fact that i really dislike the whole 'aggressive defender/passive initiator or visa versa' crap, it really should be pointed out that the sent deals included aid of money, tech and soldiers. Hardly the innocuous tech deal.

[Lord Caparo]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333611421' post='2948567']
I think as far as GOONS is concerned MONGOLS attacked by aiding that nation. I would be interested to see proof as to whether not the aid was purposefully. If it was, then GOONS's argument has merit. If not, then GOONS were going out of their way to be the aggressors. It may have already been posted somewhere and I may have missed it but all I've seen is claims that it was purposeful by a GOON or two.

Either way, Kaskus is not so unpredictable. Given the opportunity to fight, they'll take it 99 times outta 100. If you aren't attached to your pixels they make excellent allies.

And I'm not sure how or if this is relevant, but I would like to remind Europa/Kaskus that Europa did fight for NEW in the NEW-DF war against impossible odds. Even though we were told we could stay out.
[/quote]


GOONs raided Mongols tech dealer, Mongols sent a small amount of Aid, GOONs demanded 300%+ of that, Mongols said no, Mongols did mercy board and then they were attacked.

GOONs are the aggressor as they were the first to have a GOONs vs Mongols war.

Kaskus is the defender as we are defending our friend who GOONs attacked.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='King Baloneous' timestamp='1333607167' post='2948559']
mutual defense and optional aggression pact. mdoap. mongols waged a proxy way with goons when they delivered aid the poor, tech raided nation at the heart of this conflict. Mongols waged a proxy war with goons by offering aid to the nation. goons dow was a response to a mongols refusal to own up to the proxy war that was being waged and offer compensation (a token sum of reps, or a real effort at posting something enjoyable in our mercy board). Goons will not stand for aggression and will defend our sovereignty at all costs. If goons was the aggressor here, then kaskus would be honor bound to defend their brothers-in-arms. however that is not the case and any attempt to paint goons as the aggressor is twisting words and events to suit their own political agenda. given that kaskus entered this war under an optional aggression pact, and they will be held accountable.
[/quote]
This argument that Mongols are the aggressors is a silly one to make, you guys should stop trying to make it.

[Canik]

The whole incident is beautifully grey. Personally, I would say MONGOLS are the original offenders. However, I feel Kaskus was within it's rights to attack GOONS in defense of MONGOLS.

Article 2
"We will defend each other should the other come under attack."

MONGOLS did come under attack, even if it was brought on by themselves. Kaskus is the kind of alliance that would defend an ally even in that scenario.

[Spaarlaamp]

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333611421' post='2948567']
And I'm not sure how or if this is relevant, but I would like to remind Europa/Kaskus that Europa did fight for NEW in the NEW-DF war against impossible odds. Even though we were told we could stay out.
[/quote]
For how many days?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Spaarlaamp

[Swatch0]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333606193' post='2948555']
I'm not arguing with you that Kaskus isn't being honorable. I'm simply saying that if one party asks the other to remain out, that mutual defense clause becomes optional.
[/quote]

Even if it was so optional, we would still chose to help our allies. Whats your point?

[quote name='King Baloneous' timestamp='1333607167' post='2948559']
mutual defense and optional aggression pact. mdoap. mongols waged a proxy way with goons when they delivered aid the poor, tech raided nation at the heart of this conflict. Mongols waged a proxy war with goons by offering aid to the nation. goons dow was a response to a mongols refusal to own up to the proxy war that was being waged and offer compensation (a token sum of reps, or a real effort at posting something enjoyable in our mercy board). Goons will not stand for aggression and will defend our sovereignty at all costs. If goons was the aggressor here, then kaskus would be honor bound to defend their brothers-in-arms. however that is not the case and any attempt to paint goons as the aggressor is twisting words and events to suit their own political agenda. given that kaskus entered this war under an [b]optional aggression pact[/b], and they will be held accountable.
[/quote]

Mutual Defense but ok...

Edited April 5, 2012 by Swatch0

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1333587127' post='2948443']
Six times the amount given in aid (or four times the amount if the was $4.5m, I don't remember exactly) isn't clearly within reason, most alliances don't ask for more than double the amount. A lot of alliances would be happy with just getting an equal amount.
[/quote]

It was a 1.5k NS nation

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1333629533' post='2948596']
It was a 1.5k NS nation
[/quote]
If a nation that size was able to do anywhere close to $18m in damages to GOONS, then GOONS would definitely be doing something wrong.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Methrage

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1333630989' post='2948601']
If a nation that size was able to do anywhere close to $18m in damages to GOONS, then they would definitely be doing something [s]wrong[/s] right.
[/quote]


Corrected that for you

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1333631087' post='2948603']
Corrected that for you
[/quote]
Yeah, I meant GOONS would be doing something wrong. Although I can see how it looks like I was talking about the nation doing the damage with how I structured that sentence.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1333591532' post='2948485']
Why wouldn't it remain active? Some people add clauses regarding activation and make it explicit, and I think in lieu of that, legally speaking, I'm correct here. If it's not in the contract, then yes, regardless of what the other partner says you are legally obligated to help. The treaty contains all the parameters for the conduct of business between the two, assuming stipulations on it after the fact isn't valid logically.
[/quote]

Gotta agree with Xiph here, there's really no basis to be looking at the legality of the defense and comes off as petty. Furthermore, I took a couple of seconds to [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109327]look up their actual treaty[/url], which doesn't even have that silly "request clause" that Polar has championed in the past couple years, meaning they had full legal obligation to enter anyways.

And I too follow Xiph's school of thought that a treaty is always active.

Edit: I see Gibs already grabbed the treaty text, too

Edited April 5, 2012 by Leet Guy

[suryanto tan]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1333510072' post='2948109']
If you play my game, I expect you to hold to my standards. As long as the standards are the same across the board, I think that's reasonable enough.
[/quote]

This is a very good statement with so much truth in it. Always ask ourselves, whose game you want to play. Clearly, Mongols decided to make their own game and so far they have been doing pretty well.

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1333520263' post='2948165']
The large nations only became a factor when they inserted themselves into the conflict. Much in the same way Kaskus has. Though to be fair, they had legal grounds for doing so.
[/quote]

Good to see you guys trying to be fair. But you know you do not have to, right?

[quote name='Spaarlaamp' timestamp='1333581375' post='2948405']
Yes that sounds like Europa. Always trying to do the right thing, careful not to piss anyone off, all at the cost of their own membership.
[/quote]

You were in the FEAR leadership, and I was in the NEW leadership, we both know about this Europa culture who always caved when fighting against larger foes. I remembered our gov to gov discussion about how they claimed to "had defended" NEW in NEW-DF war and wrote it so proudly in their wiki. We know better, they came in reluctantly, and did not actually put any meaningful fight. They keep complaining during the entire war like a little girl and push us to quickly end the war and accept the peace, what a joke... LOL.

[quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1333582096' post='2948408']
If everyone doesn't settle down I'll press the button...
[/quote]

Well, are your missiles pointed at us or in both directions?

Good to see you guys being cool as always. I personally think Kaskus owe you guys for the favor you did for us during the peace settlement in the last war which we started. If in the future, you are in the losing side of the war, consider that you have my nation support and perhaps even Kaskus alliance support. Being fair and bad-ass tough at the same time is a scarce quality. We value that very highly.

[quote name='Courland' timestamp='1333605925' post='2948553']
MONGOLS will forever owe Kaskus a debt, and we greatly hope to be able to repay it someday.
[/quote]

We are the one who owe you. And I am really mean that. Please check pm for details about why it is so. You guys are awesome for daring to fight back. You are not those people with submissive personality and tiny balls.

[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333611421' post='2948567']
I think as far as GOONS is concerned MONGOLS attacked by aiding that nation. I would be interested to see proof as to whether not the aid was purposefully. If it was, then GOONS's argument has merit. If not, then GOONS were going out of their way to be the aggressors. It may have already been posted somewhere and I may have missed it but all I've seen is claims that it was purposeful by a GOON or two.

Either way, Kaskus is not so unpredictable. Given the opportunity to fight, they'll take it 99 times outta 100. If you aren't attached to your pixels they make excellent allies.

And I'm not sure how or if this is relevant, but I would like to remind Europa/Kaskus that Europa did fight for NEW in the NEW-DF war against impossible odds. Even though we were told we could stay out.
[/quote]

I can agree that Mongols might have offended GOONS but I would not say that they attacked GOONS.

At the government level, the considerations often are not about doing the right thing, most of the time it is about doing what your members expect of you. I really doubt that there are GOONS members with decent level of intelligence who actually see Mongols as the aggressor and felt threaten by it. They welcome this as the opportunity to wage a war against the weak micro for a week and deliver the punishment as the tough guys. Too bad for them though, little that they know, the micro bites back.

Edited April 5, 2012 by suryanto tan

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1333633825' post='2948608']the micro bites back.
[/quote]

I think we found the name of our war.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1333634867' post='2948609']
I think we found the name of our war.
[/quote]

Catchy

[flak attack]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1333597451' post='2948526']
Or just Vladimir Stukov
[/quote]
Every once in a while there is a post here that makes me wish this forum had :masterstroke:

This is one of them.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1333567811' post='2948323']
To be fair, some of us just want a good fight. We aren't particular about who it's with.
[/quote]
Fair enough but wouldnt that put both you and I in a bit of pickle. Seems to be a lot of hostility comming at us from DH NG and allies these days. I thought we had squashed much of this but apparently not :shrugs:. As far as Aeros goes you can no more hold Valhalla to the fire for his comments than we can hold MK for tamerlane or quiona. Hes simply stating his personal opinion of this war and its origins. Personally I think its over reaction, but GOONs are generally consistent with their actions and seem to be following their policy. Because of that I have no issues with it. Mongols were given a cheap out to this and they chose not to take it. Fool hardy IMO but hey they too are just following their intenral policy. So really both sides are right here and its good to see for good or bad parties sticking to their guns. I hope this micro stuff ends soon though as Im sure we all have bigger fish to catch.

[suryanto tan]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1333636606' post='2948615']
Fair enough but wouldnt that put both you and I in a bit of pickle. Seems to be a lot of hostility comming at us from DH NG and allies these days. I thought we had squashed much of this but apparently not :shrugs:. As far as Aeros goes you can no more hold Valhalla to the fire for his comments than we can hold MK for tamerlane or quiona. Hes simply stating his personal opinion of this war and its origins. Personally I think its over reaction, but GOONs are generally consistent with their actions and seem to be following their policy. Because of that I have no issues with it. Mongols were given a cheap out to this and they chose not to take it. Fool hardy IMO but hey they too are just following their intenral policy. So really both sides are right here and its good to see for good or bad parties sticking to their guns. I hope this micro stuff ends soon though as Im sure we all have bigger fish to catch.
[/quote]

I know I am at no position to say this, but consider to do something that has more impact. If the fish you wish to catch is an easy fry, well, it is not an accomplishment at all.

Consider to change the world, the power map. That way you and your members can be proud since you do accomplished something really BIG.
Valhalla along with Mjolnir have the capability to do it. That I am 100% sure. You deserved to be the main player and get back the glory you used to have..
Your old debt can always be settled (again) much later.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='suryanto tan' timestamp='1333638587' post='2948620']
Valhalla along with Mjolnir have the capability to do it.
[/quote]

Along with who?

That whole comment is very, very precious.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Leet Guy