Proof of Allegations

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1329290614' post='2920970']

Goons - you're free to chime in too.

[/quote]

Nah that's okay.

[mdnss69]

[quote name='Blacky' timestamp='1329289520' post='2920964']
I thought the stigma around spying ended in 2009. [/quote]

If this is the case, then you and yours are have been hypocrites for the last three years.

I reserve every right to call you on this one, fungi.

[Schad]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1329290614' post='2920970']
The non-denial denial ("Oh, we didn't realize you were talking about [i]those[/i] instances. We don't consider [i]that[/i] spying, we call it something else." Or, alternatively, "I wasn't [i]personally[/i] involved at the time and, since the other's never denied in the thread, we weren't really [i]lying[/i] per se."). Are you saying it never happened? Either TOP members were reading private threads on SuperFriends' forums or you were not.

It's very simple, call me a liar. Definitively state it never happened. Better yet, get the group that was running TOP a year ago in here to call me a liar.

MK, Umbrella, Goons - you're free to chime in too.

[/quote]

The best part of this is that you're still beating this drum after a long-time member of an SF alliance came into the thread to point out that you're full of !@#$.

[IYIyTh]

Too soon, huh?

[Krack]

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1329293480' post='2920978']
The best part of this is that you're still beating this drum after a long-time member of an SF alliance came into the thread to point out that you're full of !@#$.
[/quote]

And then I had a PM exchange with him and it turns out he didnt know what he was talking about and was referring to a particular incident several years earlier. Although, I'm not sure how the SuperFriends alliances (or particular SuperFriends members, then and now) would be expected to know who was and was not spying on them - unless, of course, their ally or allies that knew about it had informed them. Hey Umbrella, did you let RIA know this was going on?

EDIT:
[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1329214289']
I was assuming you were talking about a time a long long time ago ...

SNIP

... Anyway, i'm probably wrong in any sense as i have been away from any politics this game has to offer for over 2 years.[/quote]

Edited February 15, 2012 by Krack

[Schad]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1329293802' post='2920982']
And then I had a PM exchange with him and it turns out he didnt know what he was talking about and was referring to a particular incident several years earlier. Although, I'm not sure how the SuperFriends alliances (or particular SuperFriends members, then and now) would be expected to know who was and was not spying on them - unless, of course, their ally or allies that knew about it had informed them. Hey Umbrella, did you let RIA know this was going on?

EDIT:
[/quote]

I assumed that if you had ironclad proof that they had been spied on by an alliance you seem to hate, you'd probably have passed it along within the first twelve months rather than saving it for some grand moment of attention whoring, yeah.

[Blacky]

[quote name='mdnss69' timestamp='1329292856' post='2920977']
*snip*
[/quote]
What? Spying has historically been a valid CB.
It's a form of cold war. However it is no more stigmatised in this day and age than firing nukes.
Times change.

[Beauty]

I remember the good old days when MK was actually fearful of when they spied on RIA. Ragnarok's MDP with them was the only thing protecting them from getting rolled by SF. Now SF got rolled by them. Its sometimes sad how things change.

[mdnss69]

[quote name='Blacky' timestamp='1329294670' post='2920984']
What? Spying has historically been a valid CB.
It's a form of cold war. However it is [i]no more stigmatised [/i]in this day and age than firing nukes.
Times change.
[/quote]

Your reasoning is absurd. If times changed I wouldn't have any justification for calling you hypocrites. I do, and I will.

[Monster]

How is Doomhouse implicated in spying on SF in 2009?

I have reupped the screens to imgur and OP has been edited. http://imgur.com/wOroW,EJmxn,duoZn,X7eAc

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1329282264' post='2920899']
Well, in the thread we have a prominent member of Sparta's government speaking of his plans for the destruction of MK and possibly of TLR and NG.

I await the pertinent political developments that are sure to result.
[/quote]

You will probably have to wait on Umbrella cancelling with either party for that to happen.

[Monster]

Well you have to take into consideration the other treaty partners. I mentioned the various issues with TOP since they have very good member-member relations with MK. I'm curious about NoR though. Given ItaliaRule's comments towards me, I'm pessimistic about the Network at this point. I know there are enough good people there to make it happen though and not stand by MK's actions both in this instance and others.


Also since Derwood and NG wanted to keep 'stylin': here's a tidbit, Derwood, paragon of rationality, demanded both GOONS and Umbrella hit STA. I didn't do it, and that's why they hate me. arexes ballcupped him throughout and basically acted as if it was the crime of the century for them to wait until the Argent plan was secured.

Drai also hates me because of his nation rank going down. He went so far as to complain about the difference between his nation rank on January 24th and after the war.

Oh basically, NG and MK both really resent stat losses and !@#$%*ed about them to no end and blamed me for them, despite Impero being equally in charge.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[potato]

What about me?

[Monster]

You didn't do anything. A lot of MK gov has actively resented me for their stat losses for a long time though. The triad being one of the foremost culprits.

edit: the culmination was 1337 comparing XX's stat losses to MK's and saying MK only lost x amount of tech to deletions and he used it to tell Johnny to cancel on MHA.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Roquentin

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1329259526' post='2920607']
OOC, since you're clearly OOC:

You know, some of us in MK-TOP-etc. have known Roquentin for a while and are genuinely concerned about his well-being. We're not trying to label him as insane because of what he's doing IC but because we think he's clearly showing signs of unhealthy behaviour. Making 60+ posts a day, over 800 on other boards, querying hundreds of people to discuss (?) events from 2007-2008, often going on monologues, etc.

I'm personally more worried about the people who keep acting like there's nothing wrong with him and just labeling it as "MK attacking someone OOC". You're not doing him any favor. Hell, mods should have intervened already.
[/quote]

[ooc]Someone spending an unhealthy amount of spare time on CN, that's a first. By that standard 90% of all gov members in CN are insane, though seeing i have claimed many times someone must be insane to be in a CN alliances gov i'm not disputing that. But not labeling him as insane? If people are not trying to do this... they're failing miserably.[/ooc]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1329260860' post='2920623']
Still, what he did was pretty !@#$%*.
[/quote]

Sorry but someone from MK is the last one that should talk about being !@#$%*. Not saying every MK member is the same, but a bunch of your members are making it into an art.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1329266684' post='2920687']
The central point here seems to be that [b]MK spied on several alliances[/b] (at least UPN and NSO from the screenshots). This is not being denied, MK instead relying on character assassination and deflection to try to get people to ignore it. Okay, this particular example is from January 2011, but the individuals involved are still present and in relatively senior roles in MK (bros is forum admin and lebubu is a Prince), so there's no particular reason to think that the spying has not continued to the present day (and Roq outright accuses them of doing this more recently).

Let's just put that out again. MK demonstrably spied on at least two alliances. This goes far beyond what, for example, NpO did to get rolled by VE. Any alliance which retains support for MK is supporting spying, something which would make most of them blatant hypocrites.

Now, there's also the question of how many other people and alliances were complicit in the spying, of whom Roq himself was obviously one. But that should not distract us from the core point that MK has been proved to carry out spying on other alliances, something which is a stone wall CB and which would cause any half-decent alliance to reconsider relations with them.

If it's true that bros either abused admin access or set up back doors or took database backups and used them for intel, then that is particularly despicable, because he advertises himself as a trusted member of the community doing a service. [OOC]And claims it's outside the IC political arena.[/OOC] But that's not proved, all that's proved is that he was acquiring intel from these boards for MK.
[/quote]

Good post, but the problem isn't in MK's allies alone.. say about MK whatever you want, they have a rock solid FA position. Treatied to a few core allies that will keep supporting them. And those allies in turn bring in the real power, you yourself are in one of these blocs.

I don't think many (if any) direct MK allies will cancel over something like this. Which brings the question, what are the indirect allies going to do? For us it was pretty simple, we made the choice not wanting to be tied to MK, we nor any of our allies has a treaty with MK. If that means ending up on the losing side of another war, so be it. We made the choice not to participate in enabling them to continue down their path. Gre has a tie through TOP, so for you and all the other alliances that do there's the question, where do you draw the line and how far are you willing to go? You don't have to answer it though, it's a question for these alliances to think about and their choice to make.

[quote name='Hyperonic' timestamp='1329268066' post='2920716']
So, when are you people going to learn to not let your web host play in politics or using web hosts you basically can't really trust?
[/quote]

Good point, however, i recall Bros coming over to R&R a while back with a similar offer, we're using IPB and he offered to help transfer to SMF. We decided against it because we are fairly satisfied with ipb (not saying it's the greatest forum software out there but it suits our needs) and because we lacked in house experience with SMF. But his offer was tempting enough that i can see how alliances that are less fortunate and lack in house expertise could go for the offer.

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1329269042' post='2920740']
Spying is bad, I agree. Now why dont you guys do something about it and attack them? If you wont do anything about it then just shut it.
[/quote]

Oh yeah.. thats grade A logic right there!

We got spied on, how can we get even? Let's rush into a losing war and get a curbstomp on top of it.

[Olaf Styke]

Nice new high-res screens, Roq. Now I can watch MK fail in high-definition.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329303036' post='2920999']
I'm curious about NoR though.
[/quote]
Don't be. I made my personal statement on this a few pages back but it got lost in the shuffle. As for Nordreich's official stance, it has been relayed to MK in private. While it may entertain you or serve your purposes to have all discourse out here in the open, it means nothing to me.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1329290614' post='2920970']
The non-denial denial ("Oh, we didn't realize you were talking about [i]those[/i] instances. We don't consider [i]that[/i] spying, we call it something else." Or, alternatively, "I wasn't [i]personally[/i] involved at the time and, since the other's never denied in the thread, we weren't really [i]lying[/i] per se."). Are you saying it never happened? Either TOP members were reading private threads on SuperFriends' forums or you were not.
[/quote]
The better question is, are you actually going to show some sort of proof that we spied or are you just going to continue to talk out of your rear end without backing it up? I mean, I know it's a consistent trait of yours, but there might as well be a point where you need to back your words up.

Alternatively, of course, I can just follow your lead from the Ragnarok thread and assume that, since you're not providing any sort of evidence to refute my claims, I must be right.

EDIT: Needed a question mark in there

Edited February 15, 2012 by Bob Ilyani

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1329311076' post='2921032']
The better question is, are you actually going to show some sort of proof that we spied or are you just going to continue to talk out of your rear end without backing it up? I mean, I know it's a consistent trait of yours, but there might as well be a point where you need to back your words up.[/quote]

MK asked for the same thing... I wouldn't want to be in their position right now.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='bcortell' timestamp='1329289965' post='2920968']
Thank goodness OMFG's vote doesn't count... Wait, they're the AA that has no vote, right?
[/quote]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1329290433' post='2920969']
I think Feanor was saying that by the time Argent rolls OMFG...
[/quote]
Yevgeni nailed it. I expect OMFG won't be around for much longer. (its not like anyone listens to them anyways!)

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Blacky' timestamp='1329289520' post='2920964']
Since when did "stealing information" become something you were against? You basically built a career out of rewarding and using stolen information (with characters like Francesca who you constantly lauded).[/quote]
I know everyone loves a gotcha, but I'm afraid I can't give you one. I have never spied on any alliance until after attack, Vox spied on those it was at war with, and CoJ has only spied on alliances that it was already at war with. In fact, in the case of ODN, CoJ--like Vox--only spied on them after they refused multiple offers of peace. When the war ended, the spying ended.
To attempt to compare MK's vast spying machine against not just non-combatant but non-enemy alliances across the spectrum to the use of spies as a tool of war during a declared war is a fool's errand; you might as well argue that a nuke rogue is the same as someone that uses nukes during a war.

[quote]Also what makes Roq worse is that he is claiming he was a victim in all of this. If he found it morally objectionable (nothing at the time suggests he did) why didn't he stop it? More importantly, what makes him worse is that after the fact he's throwing ex-friends under the bus for something HE WAS COMPLICIT IN. Then to top it all off he has the nerve to call other people scum.
[/quote]
You are in fact not citing anything Roq has actually said and are instead applying your counter-arguments to him. Roq has not claimed to be a victim in this spying, he has not claimed any moral objection. He [i]has [/i]stated over and over for months that if MK and various other parties continued to screw around with him that he would start drawing maps to the bodies, and he's done it. He [i]has [/i]argued that it is stupid for anyone to continue to allow anyone from MK access to their forums' admin control panels (and to be sure it is and always was), and that MK's allies and more pointedly the meatswarm around MK's allies should re-evaluate their treaties--hardly a moral argument.
As for those friends that Roq is supposed to be throwing under the bus? They were dancing on his grave at Umbrella's forum, they've been hounding him for months on this forum. If those were my ex-friends, I wouldn't settle for throwing them under the bus, I'd be driving it. Your [i]boohoo Roq betrayed us[/i] act is the only moralizing in this thread.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Derwood1' timestamp='1329285111' post='2920931']
My god Roq you trying to replace Methrage as the most bat!@#$crazy Bob citizen?
[/quote]
I'm doing fine and probably a lot more sane than a lot of people on this planet, so if I'm the measure on what you would consider "the most bat!@#$crazy person around", then Roq should take your opinion with a grain of salt. Sure I've fought Non Grata, GOONS, MK and other alliances in the past for fun, but considering Non Grata attacks 30+ member alliances for fun and tries claiming it to be just a tech raid, you guys are more crazy than I am in doing what you what you want regardless of what others might think and calling it what you want. Although I guess bat!@#$crazy to you guys just means someone willing to oppose you guys at some point in time.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329264370' post='2920651']
It's not. I'm new and improved in general. For some reason I can hyperfocus and get what I want done.

Like I said to their allies: want to stick with MK? You will burn with them and you will regret not listening to me. Very few people actually like any of you. NG's ballcupping isn't impressing anyone and I hope it shows its consequences soon enough too.

Another alliance MK really doesn't like: Valhalla.
[/quote]
OMG this is a news flash. Please leave us out of the mix were just fine where we are. If MK hates us so much they know where to find us.

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1329265309' post='2920666']
Would gladly burn with MK any day of the week and wouldn't regret anything about it. If you think that you have the support to carry out your plans with your band of morons who cling to every word you say like your some kind of messiah... then bring it. We'll be waiting.
[/quote]
Sorry Jgoods but this made me laugh. Especially after how MK treated Athens.

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1329269419' post='2920750']
A problem with all this is that the currently proven to have been spied on alliances are in no position to do anything about the spying... at least not right now. We've all seen people hold their CBs for years and strike when the treaty web favors them in the fight, and I suspect that someday, MK will end up paying for this in some way, but as it stands, they are welcome to do as they please with no one to stop them.
[/quote]
Damn Pez the moon mars jupiter and sun must have all lined up again. Im in agreement.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1329274424' post='2920827']
I haven't approved any such measures, so no.
[/quote]
We are only marginally ready for approval sir.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329275488' post='2920833']
Well, we're going to need you to help out. Up until I decided to fire this volley, you were the next ones on the chopping block. I extended the olive branch and chefjoe seemed skeptical. I meant to go to DT as well, but I haven't been able to get them at the right time.

In addition, there's also the matter of NSO and UPN having a right to my head. I'm willing to turn myself over if that's what they want, but they're the only ones.
[/quote]
Heres the problem Roq. Weve been next ever since Karma. Through solid FA work and the work of some very good friends not to mention us being a very solid AA weve survived Hell we have even thrived. So forgive us if we dont run for cover when things are brought to our attention. We always listen and we are paying attention but the your next line will not make us quiver in fear or push our hand to do something stupid.

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1329276728' post='2920845']
I'm confused, are you asking for them to step up and attack us? If so I'm sorry I ever doubted you, you really are a good friend to me
[/quote]
Still staying warm i see seerow.
[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1329281371' post='2920883']
Hahaha, what?


I know that you're unlikely to take my word for it, but the idea of attacking Valhalla is one that doesn't really receive much attention. Sure, many MK members dislike Valhalla (and vice versa), but I can't really say we have a reason to attack you.
[/quote]
You dont have a reason, but when has that ever stopped anyone in this world.


[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1329287013' post='2920951']
Hmm, you could have let me down gently rather than in public like this. I'm so embarrassed...
[/quote]
Well you know when we try to do things privately it just doesnt ever seem to work out Tyga.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Buds The Man

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1329320419' post='2921062']

Well you know when we try to do things privately it just doesnt ever seem to work out Tyga.
[/quote]
Try again?

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1329320969' post='2921063']
Try again?
[/quote]
NVM i get it now very nicely done sir.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Buds The Man