Bob Ilyani Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1318809351' post='2826508'] Not that I was talking to you anyhow, but just for the heck of it: [/quote] Your quote is irrelevant to the point at hand. Comparing Casus Belli and Casus Foederis is unnecessary, as neither the incident nor my perception of the incident a case of Casus Foederis. Foederis implies involvement due to the terms of a mutual defensive pact, i.e NSO declaring in support of Tetris due to an aggressive attack by The Legion. On the other hand, the posting of internal screenshots by Tetris government onto the OWF is clearly a valid Casus Belli. I've said that before (even in the post you quoted) and I'll say it again. That being said, it is not an act of aggression. Sure, it's often the preamble to one, but it is not the act itself. I don't need your dictionary definition of a Casus Belli, as I know well enough what one is. Maybe you should look back and see what the difference between one and an act of aggression is before attempting to contest my points with inane dictionary definitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1318811809' post='2826548'] Legion made no effort to follow the issue up with anyone else in NSO, which is why it is only coming out now. The allegation is that Legion didn't really care about the spying, they just wanted to make a show of force to reclaim "honor" (I, for one, always thought Klingons were dumb) and they chose the relatively convenient target of Tetris, deliberately choosing not to investigate a lead that led to the NSO. The actions both public and private (those which I am aware of anyway) seem to support this view, and it's the one I've espoused since the war began and this little revelation only lends more evidence to it. [/quote] That sounds like a remarkable amount of bull !@#$. [b]Who[/b] made that allegation? You think if we had concrete evidence that Varianz was the provider of the screenshots that we wouldn't have declared on NSO as well? What would stop us? Getting stomped? We already thought VE was coming in to counter for Tetris. It didn't matter. What sort of [i]investigation of a lead[/i] as you so put it would you have undertaken in our shoes? I believe the last time the Legion gov approached NSO about displaying spy reports, you told them to $%&@ off. Why in Admin's name would they even bother? As if you wanted any sort of diplomatic resolution, no you were content to spy, pass the reports to Tetris, and then prompt them to mock the Legion publicly while you stood behind them throwing verbal stones. So don't act like we are barbarians for not [i]investigating a lead[/i] when Tetris were the perpetrators of displaying our private forums. And had we known you all were behind it, nothing less than declaring on you at the same time would have satisfied. And now, when all that !@#$ has come down on your head for acting like @#$&*$$, you try to twist a story this way and that. You are full of lies and watching you try to squirm out from underfoot would be gratifying if weren't so pathetic. I feel sorry for you. Just man up, quit with the !@#$%^&*, and let's fight this to the end. Edited October 17, 2011 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1318813033' post='2826568'] That sounds like a remarkable amount of bull !@#$. [b]Who[/b] made that allegation? You think if we had concrete evidence that Varianz was the provider of the screenshots that we wouldn't have declared on NSO as well? What would stop us? Getting stomped? We already thought VE was coming in to counter for Tetris. It didn't matter. What sort of [i]investigation of a lead[/i] as you so put it would you have undertaken in our shoes? I believe the last time the Legion gov approached NSO about displaying spy reports, you told them to $%&@ off. Why in Admin's name would they even bother? As if you wanted any sort of diplomatic resolution, no you were content to spy, pass the reports to Tetris, and then prompt them to mock the Legion publicly while you stood behind them throwing verbal stones. So don't act like we are barbarians for not [i]investigating a lead[/i] when Tetris were the perpetrators of displaying our private forums. And had we known you all were behind it, nothing less than declaring on you at the same time would have satisfied. And now, when all that !@#$ has come down on your head for acting like @#{:content:}amp;*$, you try to twist a story this way and that. You are full of lies and watching you try to squirm out from underfoot would be gratifying if weren't so pathetic. I feel sorry for you. Just man up, quit with the !@#$%^&*, and let's fight this to the end. [/quote] I made that allegation, when you declared war and again today. I am not twisting anything, and I don't lie - I have no need to. You are not barbarians, you were just foolhardy and concerned more with your image, or perhaps internal unrest (members clamoring for a declaration of war), than with actually repairing an issue. I can't say how NSO government would have responded if you had bothered to follow it up, but neither can you, because you never did. Your government chose to attack the weaker target rather than make even the most cursory investigation of the larger. Tetris never spied on you, and neither did the NSO. Nor did the NSO prompt anyone to go public with anything. But once it happened, we supported our allies and ended up here. You can rage all you want about how terrible of a person I apparently am, it really just makes you look foolish. What has come down on our head? The Legion? At the risk of inviting yet another discussion of who is "winning" we seem to be doing fine, thank you very much, so I wouldn't start counting those chickens just yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1318814459' post='2826579'] I made that allegation, when you declared war and again today. [/quote] Yes, a convenient story, alleged by you, and yet one lacking in proof or perspective. [quote] You are not barbarians, you were just foolhardy and concerned more with your image, or perhaps internal unrest (members clamoring for a declaration of war), than with actually repairing an issue. I can't say how NSO government would have responded if you had bothered to follow it up, but neither can you, because you never did.[/quote] Don't even start. You had no interest in "repairing an issue". Your blatant hostility and derision, of which anyone can plainly see by looking at your memberships' posts, is quite indicative of NSO's stance. Foolhardy? No. Clamoring for war? No. Tetris collaborated with a spy and posted our information and talked all sorts of !@#$. Along with NSO. As you thought the Legion wouldn't do anything, proven again by your membership's own words, there was no indication that diplomacy was a viable route. Nor a wanted one, after such a violation of acceptable behavior. There is only one path after such actions. [quote] Your government chose to attack the weaker target rather than make even the most cursory investigation of the larger.[/quote] We attacked Tetris because they posted information gained from spying. [quote] Tetris never spied on you, and neither did the NSO. [/quote] Then who did? Since you know, why don't you tell us? Edited October 17, 2011 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williambonney Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1318812883' post='2826561'] Your quote is irrelevant to the point at hand. Comparing Casus Belli and Casus Foederis is unnecessary, as neither the incident nor my perception of the incident a case of Casus Foederis. Foederis implies involvement due to the terms of a mutual defensive pact, i.e NSO declaring in support of Tetris due to an aggressive attack by The Legion. On the other hand, the posting of internal screenshots by Tetris government onto the OWF is clearly a valid Casus Belli. I've said that before (even in the post you quoted) and I'll say it again. That being said, it is not an act of aggression. Sure, it's often the preamble to one, but it is not the act itself. I don't need your dictionary definition of a Casus Belli, as I know well enough what one is. Maybe you should look back and see what the difference between one and an act of aggression is before attempting to contest my points with inane dictionary definitions. [/quote] I'll be sure to note that if your alliance DoW's someone for espionage. Will be quite the conundrum I imagine. Edit: I almost forgot, your opinions are not written on the correct form of paper. Please be sure to use the appropriate type so I can process them fully. My assistant would be happy to provide you with an abundant supply if necessary. [img]http://toiletpaper-dispenser.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/11.jpg[/img] Edited October 17, 2011 by William Bonney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1318811809' post='2826548'] Yea I think we're done here.[/quote] He is saying that the story was by varianz that everyone knew, but there is no proof other than the word of varianz... Way to snip posts in order to fit your agenda. [quote][b]Legion made no effort to follow the issue up with anyone else in NSO, which is why it is only coming out now.[/b] The allegation is that Legion didn't really care about the spying, they just wanted to make a show of force to reclaim "honor" (I, for one, always thought Klingons were dumb) and they chose the relatively convenient target of Tetris, deliberately choosing not to investigate a lead that led to the NSO. The actions both public and private (those which I am aware of anyway) seem to support this view, and it's the one I've espoused since the war began and this little revelation only lends more evidence to it. [/quote] False. Legion government went to Tetris, who said $%&@ off, then they went to NSO because RV originally posted that "a little birdie sent him this: (insert warchest info)" .. again was told to $%&@ off and/or to do something about it. The only fact they had 100% was that Tetris was posting the screen-shots. Legion had no idea who the "little birdie" was when the other information was another member of NSO government. Effort was made to speak to both NSO and Tetris government, despite not having logs or being there for the actual conversation, your posts and your alliance mates posts on World Affair show that you had no interest in helping find the source of the leak. [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1318814459' post='2826579'] I made that allegation, when you declared war and again today. I am not twisting anything, and I don't lie - I have no need to. You are not barbarians, you were just foolhardy and concerned more with your image, or perhaps internal unrest (members clamoring for a declaration of war), than with actually repairing an issue. I can't say how NSO government would have responded if you had bothered to follow it up, but neither can you, because you never did. Your government chose to attack the weaker target rather than make even the most cursory investigation of the larger. [b]Tetris never spied on you, and neither did the NSO.[/b] Nor did the NSO prompt anyone to go public with anything. But once it happened, we supported our allies and ended up here. You can rage all you want about how terrible of a person I apparently am, it really just makes you look foolish. What has come down on our head? The Legion? At the risk of inviting yet another discussion of who is "winning" we seem to be doing fine, thank you very much, so I wouldn't start counting those chickens just yet.[/quote] Varianz admitted to orchestrating the spying. Considering he has not been kicked out of NSO we can safely assume you condone his actions. Therefore, NSO did spy on us. RV said at the time a little birdie sent him the 'gather intel' results. Considering Varianz was the source of the screenshots its not too much of a leap to say he had a hand in providing the information to RV as well. We could not prove who did the spying, so we declared on the one who shared the information obtained from spying. This eventually led to the source of the spying, who is also currently being beat on. Looks like we killed two birds with one stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1318746837' post='2826126'] As VE's foremost, most virulent, and most intelligent critic, let me lay this out for you in simple terms: VE and Tetris have an [i]optional [/i]defensive treaty. Tetris committed an [i]aggressive [/i]act of war. VE has no treaty [i]obligations [/i]to Tetris to begin with, and they have no defensive angle at all. The entire point of optional treaties is for just such an event as some donkey such as Hereno doing what clods do. [/quote] Well maybe foremost and virulent but I'll pass on intelligent. If you were you would know VE held an MDoAP with Tetris until this whole affair and downgraded because of it. They didn't downgrade when SethB did his thing. They rallied the troops and rolled. Basically the same crime...different result this time. Now what were you saying about intelligence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedj Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1318815338' post='2826593'] Then who did? Since you know, why don't you tell us? [/quote] I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318822555' post='2826791'] Well maybe foremost and virulent but I'll pass on intelligent. If you were you would know VE held an MDoAP with Tetris until this whole affair and downgraded because of it. They didn't downgrade when SethB did his thing. They rallied the troops and rolled. Basically the same crime...different result this time. Now what were you saying about intelligence? [/quote] The fact that you're trying to compare both situations just shows how dense you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318823503' post='2826827'] The fact that you're trying to compare both situations just shows how dense you are. [/quote] really? Then explain how they are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318822555' post='2826791'] Well maybe foremost and virulent but I'll pass on intelligent. [b]If you were you would know VE held an MDoAP with Tetris until this whole affair and downgraded because of it. [/b]They didn't downgrade when SethB did his thing. They rallied the troops and rolled. Basically the same crime...different result this time. Now what were you saying about intelligence? [/quote] No, we downgraded over a week before legion made any signs that they would be declaring (maybe two? it was before UPN and their government change by a bit) and it was due to a number of things. I really hope you don't actually think the two situations are even close to the same though, in any way. I swear every single time the words 'spying' and 'VE' appear on these forums someone jumps out and yells[i] just like karma!!!@![/i]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318823904' post='2826841'] really? Then explain how they are different. [/quote] SethB never posted the screenshots, he only received them. If you think they're the same situation then you really have confirmed how dense you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318824267' post='2826850'] SethB never posted the screenshots, he only received them. If you think they're the same situation then you really have confirmed how dense you are. [/quote] Like I said semantics. Were they not already posted elsewhere where anyone could see them anyway? Were the people responsible not punished by Tetris? I don't see much difference. It's fine if you guys do though. They are/were your allies afterall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318824476' post='2826856'] Like I said semantics. Were they not already posted elsewhere where anyone could see them anyway? Were the people responsible not punished by Tetris? I don't see much difference. It's fine if you guys do though. They are/were your allies afterall. [/quote] Do you really think a government member [i]accepting[/i] screenshots is comparable to one [i]posting[/i] them on the OWF? You also realize CNtel was not around back then, right? Edit: And no, these screenshots that Tetris got were not on CNtel. Edited October 17, 2011 by WarriorConcept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1318815338' post='2826593'] Yes, a convenient story, alleged by you, and yet one lacking in proof or perspective.[/quote] The proof is in your actions, as I've laid out repeatedly over the last few weeks. [quote]Don't even start. You had no interest in "repairing an issue". Your blatant hostility and derision, of which anyone can plainly see by looking at your memberships' posts, is quite indicative of NSO's stance.[/quote] Perhaps you need some thicker skin? [quote]Foolhardy? No. Clamoring for war? No. Tetris collaborated with a spy and posted our information and talked all sorts of !@#$. Along with NSO. As you thought the Legion wouldn't do anything, proven again by your membership's own words, there was no indication that diplomacy was a viable route. Nor a wanted one, after such a violation of acceptable behavior. There is only one path after such actions. We attacked Tetris because they posted information gained from spying.[/quote] Tetris never collaborated with a spy. They posted received information, yes. While I realize that is a heinous and unforgivable act, it's a bit different from actually spying. Yes, congratulations on doing something about it, good for you, I just care to point out that it was never about dealing with the actual spying - you still have yet to actually do anything about that. [quote]Then who did? Since you know, why don't you tell us? [/quote] I don't know. Any more nonsense questions you'd like to ask? [quote name='Unknown Smurf']Varianz admitted to orchestrating the spying. Considering he has not been kicked out of NSO we can safely assume you condone his actions. Therefore, NSO did spy on us. RV said at the time a little birdie sent him the 'gather intel' results. Considering Varianz was the source of the screenshots its not too much of a leap to say he had a hand in providing the information to RV as well. We could not prove who did the spying, so we declared on the one who shared the information obtained from spying. This eventually led to the source of the spying, who is also currently being beat on. Looks like we killed two birds with one stone.[/quote] Varianz admitted to no such thing. Don't follow Kzoppistan's example of posting unfounded nonsense. Legion has yet to find the source of the screenshots because Legion has yet to make any genuine effort to do so. You would much rather accuse us of the crime and then behave as if offended when we point out that you have no real basis for these accusations. And somehow we're the moral miscreants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318824739' post='2826858'] Do you really think a government member [i]accepting[/i] screenshots is comparable to one [i]posting[/i] them on the OWF? You also realize CNtel was not around back then, right? [/quote] Yes I do. Opinions and all that. I think the real crux is that neither did the actual spying...for me anyway. Feel free to paint it as you like. Also am I hearing you thought Tetris did not do enough by removing those responsible from their positions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318824476' post='2826856'] Were they not already posted elsewhere where anyone could see them anyway? [/quote] No, they weren't. If you're referring to the legion ones, they aren't those that were on cntel. I think that's where your confusion lies, happy I could help. [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318824966' post='2826868'] Also am I hearing you thought Tetris did not do enough by removing those responsible from their positions? [/quote] No, like I said before, there were a number of reasons for the downgrade and we have been working on all of them with Tetris since that time. The situation with legion certainly was part of it, but not the whole of it. I'm not sure why this is so important to you. Edited October 17, 2011 by Il Impero Romano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Whimsical Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318824476' post='2826856'] Like I said semantics. Were they not already posted elsewhere where anyone could see them anyway? Were the people responsible not punished by Tetris? I don't see much difference. It's fine if you guys do though. They are/were your allies afterall. [/quote] Yeah WC. Semantics. Posting screens is nearly the same as not posting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318824966' post='2826868'] Yes I do. Opinions and all that. I think the real crux is that neither did the actual spying...for me anyway. Feel free to paint it as you like. Also am I hearing you thought Tetris did not do enough by removing those responsible from their positions? [/quote] The real "crux" is accepting information vs disseminating it to other parties. Unless you mean Schatt was never spying at all? And that is a different issue entirely, VE had already decided to downgrade prior to the government change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 So many fine lines. I wonder how your allies see them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1318825672' post='2826892'] So many fine lines. I wonder how your allies see them all. [/quote] I bet you patted yourself on the back for that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1318818319' post='2826652'] False. Legion government went to Tetris, who said $%&@ off, then they went to NSO because RV originally posted that "a little birdie sent him this: (insert warchest info)" .. again was told to $%&@ off and/or to do something about it.[/quote] This is false. You went to Pollard, and he was the one who told you to $%&@ off. Not long after is when he posted his own thread. He was subsequently outed from his position of influence and power by a vote of no confidence, and Logan personally went to talk to Legion. He offered an apology and assistance in finding about any spies. If you think this is !@#$%^&*, I can provide logs of Logan asking me if I knew who the spy was from before the DoW. As far as I know, that is the last contact Tetris government had with Legion before the DoW. [quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1318824170' post='2826848'] No, we downgraded over a week before legion made any signs that they would be declaring (maybe two? it was before UPN and their government change by a bit) and it was due to a number of things. I really hope you don't actually think the two situations are even close to the same though, in any way. I swear every single time the words 'spying' and 'VE' appear on these forums someone jumps out and yells[i] just like karma!!!@![/i]. [/quote] This is true. The downgrade had been in the works for quite some time, and the Legion incident was more or less one of quite a few reasons. Additionally, the actual notification of the downgrade was given before anybody in either alliance knew that Legion intended to "do something about it", although I could always be wrong there. I appreciate the concern for us, guys, but Tetris is more than capable of handling it's affairs with it's own allies. This seems like a nice place for me to step in and go "hey, VE and NSO, stop arguing about us you gigantic Oh no I didn't!". edit: I love the wordfilter. Edited October 17, 2011 by Hereno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1318824834' post='2826862']snip [/quote] Heft, I'm done discussing it. I've got more important things to do. *Edit: Redacted statements. Edited October 17, 2011 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318826322' post='2826906'] I bet you patted yourself on the back for that one. [/quote] Haha. You know you liked it. Like I said it's up to you guys to determine your reasons for things. I'm just a curious bystander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pingu Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1318824834' post='2826862'] And somehow we're the moral miscreants. [/quote] Well, that's pretty much who you are/what you do, right? I thought you Sith fellows embraced the Dark Side and whatnot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.