Citizens United

[Flonker]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1318657810' post='2825490']
I regret posting. I got through about 5 pages of Polar aided because the other side aided but no one is escalating before cursing the war gods.

Aiding a tech raid target can in some instances be considered an act of war, without question aiding one side of war is in itself an act of war. Especially when it's laid out like this. Either side is guilty, both sides look like cowards.

And anyone still caring about this, including myself, are probably idiots.
[/quote]

You forgot about the part where NSO throws its allies under the bus to score propaganda points.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Flonker' timestamp='1318658408' post='2825494']
You forgot about the part where NSO throws its allies under the bus to score propaganda points.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]NSO is allied to neither IAA and BTA. Both of those alliances are perfoming terribly in this war, objectively. NsO and Tetris, only one of which is allied to NSO, I have nothing but praise for. Both are pulling their weight (arguably more) and actually fighting. I will never criticize an alliance for fighting, even if it does not meet my high standards. But rushing into a war, with the bravado that IAA and BTA did, and then putting out ten wars.... No. I refuse to give credit when none is deserved.[/color]

[dev0win]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1318635353' post='2825248']
[color="#0000FF"]I do not think excluding them makes things look nicer for either side. Quite frankly I find the debate over statistic to be completely idiotc, as in this war they mean nothing. It is a battle of wills, not of strength, between NSO and Legion. All other parties are irrelevant.[/color]


[color="#0000FF"]Team building? Did you really just say something that silly? Lack of coordination has nothing to do with it. More it is the fact IAA membership feel their government screwed the pooch coming into this war. Frankly I agree with them. I personally felt their coming in was a mistake. The war should have been limited to Legion, Tetris, and the immediate allies of Tetris.[/color]
[/quote]
Oh my gosh you ARE that literal. And to think I thought you had a sense of humor somewhere along the way. Legion is in for some trouble.

Lets just let it go and see what happens. This is obviously going nowhere with you blabbing about. Good luck to both sides. o/

[Rayvon]

[quote name='illusion' timestamp='1318654371' post='2825457']
Lets not forget the reason this whole thing started. One alliance committed a dishonorable act as instructed by his puppet master, then his buddies jumped in, treaty or not, they must have ignored this dishonorable act and still helped where an honorable alliance would have cancelled the treaty. This "puppet" isn't bright enough to realize that he's being used as a pawn in the grand scale of things...trying to run with the big dogs I guess. So who is the puppet master, some know some don't, who is the puppet? We'll know as soon as the strings have been cut. What is honor? Honor is not disclosing private convos, honor is keeping a fair fight even when its even, and not accepting aid from the puppet masters when times get tough, honor is telling a big brother no when he offers to help, honor is seeing it through win or lose, because win or lose, the honorable alliance wins. This happens in life all the time, somebody taking the easy way to success based on false promises from the puppet master. Master of Puppets, cool song from Metallica. If there is any fairness in life, then the honorable will prevail, if not, then at least the dishonorable will be seen for who they are. The clear winners of this war was chosen long before the outcome will be decided. Win or lose, the honorable will prevail.
[/quote]

I want what you're on.

If you're trying to say Tetris is the puppet and we're the puppetmaster, we were unaware of Tetris receiving screenies and unaware of their intent to post them. But as stated multiple times, that's irrelevant. What matters is Legion stepped up and attacked them (go $%&@ your 'spying-is-an-act-of-war' !@#$%^&* with a rusty fork; simply existing could be enough to be considered an act-of-war should one so feel it - Legion made the first war declaration.), and we stood by their side.

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1318656127' post='2825475']
I remember when merely voting for the wrong senator got your alliance curbstomped. My times have changed *sigh*.
[/quote]

Blame the moralists .. Gotta have a REAL GOOD IRON CLAD reason now or else your a 'meanie head' and going to hell.


[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1318656562' post='2825478']
I simply used your words against you. You're rather easy to handle. [b]You should just let Bubba represent your coalition.[/b]
[/quote]

The world should tremble at such a thought ....

[Redzest]

tLR aiding the enemy!

seek war NpO o/

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='dev0win' timestamp='1318659913' post='2825505']
Oh my gosh you ARE that literal. And to think I thought you had a sense of humor somewhere along the way. Legion is in for some trouble.

Lets just let it go and see what happens. This is obviously going nowhere with you blabbing about. Good luck to both sides. o/
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Oh, that was a joke? My apologies, but you can hardly fault me if I can hardly differentiate between bad jokes and bad arguments. I am only human after all.[/color]

[Maverick87]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1318660683' post='2825508']
[color="#0000FF"][u][b]I am only human after all.[/b][/u][/color]
[/quote]

This is a lie.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Maverick87

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1318660033' post='2825506']
we were unaware of Tetris receiving screenies and unaware of their intent to post them.
[/quote]

Hm, might not be the best idea to make that your official stance.

Lots of things have been put on Tetris since this began, most of them rightfully so, but some of them for no other reason then easy scapegoating. Between that, a few comments elsewhere, and a few of the illustrious Capt. Virgina's posts earlier in this thread, I would hate to see it piled on any further even though I haven't been a huge fan of their path these past months.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1318662085' post='2825515']
Hm, might not be the best idea to make that your official stance.

Lots of things have been put on Tetris since this began, most of them rightfully so, but some of them for no other reason then easy scapegoating. Between that, a few comments elsewhere, and a few of the illustrious Capt. Virgina's posts earlier in this thread, I would hate to see it piled on any further even though I haven't been a huge fan of their path these past months.
[/quote]

They weren't aware of our intents when we started either. Nothings being put on Tetris. They made a choice as is their right. They're taking the repercussions of them, and we're standing by their side doing so.

At least we're willing to stand by our friends regardless. People make mistakes, a friend doesn't let a friend burn alone over such ..... But, you wouldn't know much about that anymore, now would ya.

[Lanore]

Can someone tell me something? After reading this thread, there seems to be something I am missing, horribly. A seemingly public piece of knowledge that this entire thread seems to hinge on. Without knowledge of what it is, I don't feel I can contribute at all.

Tell me, what in the blue blazes is "Shark Week " ?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1318662780' post='2825519']
They weren't aware of our intents when we started either. Nothings being put on Tetris. They made a choice as is their right. They're taking the repercussions of them, and we're standing by their side doing so. [/quote]


I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear with my inference. I rather you read it again then have me be direct because I have no wish to inadvertently undermine the war effort of our ODP partner. Unless, of course, you want to keep going back and forth.

[quote]
At least we're willing to stand by our friends regardless. People make mistakes, a friend doesn't let a friend burn alone over such ..... But, you wouldn't know much about that anymore, now would ya.
[/quote]

If this was a jab at our downgrade with them, I thought it was public knowledge by this point that it came a few weeks before legion declared, was a long time coming, and had just as much to do with a variety of incidents over and extended period of time and Pollard as it did their conduct in those threads. So yea, we certainly know about that just as much we know that treaties should reflect relationships and that things change. You of all people should know about things changing, no?

Edited October 15, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1318662852' post='2825520']
Can someone tell me something? After reading this thread, there seems to be something I am missing, horribly. A seemingly public piece of knowledge that this entire thread seems to hinge on. Without knowledge of what it is, I don't feel I can contribute at all.

Tell me, what in the blue blazes is "Shark Week " ?
[/quote]


Shark week was back in the day when NPO and co. had a pretty solid lock on the world. GOONS proclaimed anyone that did or said something stupid on the OWF would have their nation attacked...and carried it out. I was pissed at the fact they did it at the time, but now I miss it.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1318663625' post='2825522']
I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear with my inference. I rather you read it again then have me be direct because I have no wish to inadvertently undermine the war effort of our ODP partner. Unless, of course, you want to keep going back and forth.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]If VE has no wish to undermine the war efforts of its ODP partner I can only wonder why your MoFA is conducting spy operations against Tetris's allies.[/color]

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1318663625' post='2825522']
I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear with my inference. I rather you read it again then have me be direct because I have no wish to undermine the war effort of our ODP partner. Unless, of course, you want to keep going back and forth.[/quote]

Read this again? "Lots of things have been put on Tetris since this began, most of them rightfully so, but some of them for no other reason then easy scapegoating." - to which I still say "Nothings being put on Tetris. They made a choice as is their right. They're taking the repercussions of them, and we're standing by their side doing so." ...


[quote]If this was a jab at our downgrade with them, I thought it was public knowledge by this point that it came a few weeks before legion declared, was a long time coming, and had just as much to do with a variety of incidents over and extended period of time and Pollard as it did their conduct in those threads. So yea, we certainly know about that just as much we know that treaties should reflect relationships and that things change. [b]You of all people should know about things changing, no?[/b]
[/quote]

Indeed I do. I've witnessed a complete 180 in Viridia, perhaps one of the changes that most affected me personally in this world. Slander and lies are two things Viridian Gov never would have lowered themselves to in the Old World, nor would we have let a friend burn alone for any reason.

And you know exactly what I'm talking about - it's nothing to do with the treaty (personally, I think the whole damn thing should just be axed, $%&@ pansying about with downgrades. Show them how you really feel.). Chat with Goldie yet? Or were you already aware of his actions towards us?

[FlogYou]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1318662852' post='2825520']
Tell me, what in the blue blazes is "Shark Week " ?
[/quote]


GONNS with frickn lazer beams on their heads. and yes, I said GONNS deal with it.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1318664534' post='2825525']
Read this again? "Lots of things have been put on Tetris since this began, most of them rightfully so, but some of them for no other reason then easy scapegoating." - to which I still say "Nothings being put on Tetris. They made a choice as is their right. They're taking the repercussions of them, and we're standing by their side doing so." ...[/quote]

No, I meant the part where I inferred that I know that you were the ones who gave Tetris the screen shots in the first place, lied about it, and have let them take the rap for it this whole time in the public eye when it's a fact which may have effected legions decision making if it were known before now. And yes, know as in know.

Had to reply, didn't you?

[quote]
Indeed I do. I've witnessed a complete 180 in Viridia, perhaps one of the changes that most affected me personally in this world. Slander and lies are two things Viridian Gov never would have lowered themselves to in the Old World, nor would we have let a friend burn alone for any reason.

And you know exactly what I'm talking about - it's nothing to do with the treaty (personally, I think the whole damn thing should just be axed, $%&@ pansying about with downgrades. Show them how you really feel.). Chat with Goldie yet? Or were you already aware of his actions towards us?
[/quote]

Perspective, my former homeslice, perspective. My response is take everything you said, reverse it, and apply it to yourself. We both know this facet of the conversation isen't going to go anywhere though. And no, not yet, but I will and it will be dealt with.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1318665135' post='2825527']
No, I meant the part where I inferred that [b]I know that you were the ones who gave Tetris the screen shots in the first place and have let them take the rap for it this whole time[/b] in the public eye, a fact which may have effected legions decision making if it were known before now. And yes, know as in know. [/quote]

I love that .. They were doing their own thing. Sure, similar to what we did just a couple months prior and got away with it. But they're big boys, they can make their own decisions on what they do. That's no rhyme or reason to infer that we gave them anything.


[quote]Perspective, my former homeslice, perspective. My response is take everything you said, reverse it, and apply it to yourself. We both know this facet of the conversation isen't going to go anywhere though. And no, not yet, [b]but I will and it will be dealt with[/b].
[/quote]

That sounds awfully familiar ....

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1318665910' post='2825531']
I love that .. They were doing their own thing. Sure, similar to what we did just a couple months prior and got away with it. But they're big boys, they can make their own decisions on what they do. [b]That's no rhyme or reason to infer that we gave them anything[/b].
[/quote]

No, it's not, but this is:

[17:33] <@Pollard> NSO are supplying us with the screen shots.

I was thinking for a bit that you personally were going out of your way to !@#$ all over them, but it just occurred to me that you didn't even know, did you?

I almost feel bad.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1318660033' post='2825506']Blame the moralists   .. Gotta have a REAL GOOD IRON CLAD reason now or else your a 'meanie head' and going to hell. The world should tremble at such a thought ....[/quote]

I wasn't aware it was the "moralists" allowing aid to be sent to combatants from allied alliances without the threat of being attacked. Unless, of course, the NpO, The Last Remnants, GATO, Asgaard, and Ragnarok are now considered "moralists"?

Sending aid to war combatants has been considered an act of war since time immemorial so I'm not sure why you are flailing rabidly at the "moralist" boogeyman here. I guess it gets you more knowing nods of approval around here than blaming evil spirits, goblins or sorcery.

[img]http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w105/Tygaland/meddlingsith.gif[/img]

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1318667484' post='2825535']
I wasn't aware it was the "moralists" allowing aid to be sent to combatants from allied alliances without the threat of being attacked. Unless, of course, the NpO, The Last Remnants, GATO, Asgaard, and Ragnarok are now considered "moralists"?

Sending aid to war combatants has been considered an act of war since time immemorial so I'm not sure why you are flailing rabidly at the "moralist" boogeyman here. I guess it gets you more knowing nods of approval around here than blaming evil spirits, goblins or sorcery.

[img]http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w105/Tygaland/meddlingsith.gif[/img]
[/quote]

The comment I quoted had nothing to do with that - it had to do with the changing of times that Steve brought up ... "I remember when merely voting for the wrong senator got your alliance curbstomped. My times have changed *sigh*." ... Yes - aiding a nation at war IS an act-of-war ... I do believe we've agreed with that a dozen times or so .. Steve's post initially identified that, but then he trailed off on a moment of nostalgia to which I responded.




Impero - I'll get back to you .......

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1318667951' post='2825536']The comment I quoted had nothing to do with that - it had to do with the changing of times that Steve brought up ... "I remember when merely voting for the wrong senator got your alliance curbstomped. My times have changed *sigh*."
[/quote]

Quite obviously he was raising that point as an expression of disbelief and disappointment that the aid issue has not seen military retaliation. The lack of which you blame on "moralists", it seems.

[quote]
... Yes - aiding a nation at war IS an act-of-war ... I do believe we've agreed with that a dozen times or so .. Steve's post initially identified that, but then he trailed off on a moment of nostalgia to which I responded.[/quote]

Then, perhaps, you can point out who the "moralists" are preventing military response from the alliances I listed in my previous post in retaliation to the aid transactions being sent to combatant nations. Not sure what "moralists" have to do with it when the sending of aid is an accepted act of war as you acknowledge.

The only reason I can think of is the one I mentioned in my previous post. It is the Cyberverse street cred version of blaming evil spirits, goblins or sorcery.

I'll let you in on a little secret. "Moralists" can't make you do something, nor can they prevent you doing something. Only you control what you do and when. Everyone else controls what they do in reaction to your actions. Although, I admit the threat of being labelled a "meanie head" pretty much keeps me in line.

[Sabcat]

On a side note, I'm waiting for Varianz to give me a view on the aid sent to NSO by their allies - As it was never officially recognised/announced I'm willing to accept the loss of our tech bet on that basis.

[Rayvon]

Well dear Tyga, I apologize I didn't read his post the exact same way you did. I retract my statement of nostalgia based on the fact that my interpretations are inferior to yours.

I'll try harder to conform to your way of thinking.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Rayvon

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1318668829' post='2825540']Well dear Tyga, I apologize I didn't read his post the exact same way you did. I retract my statement of nostalgia based on the fact that my interpretations are inferior to yours.  I'll try harder to conform to your way of thinking.[/quote]

Not sure how you interpreted it as a random nostalgic look to the past seeings as he mentioned the aid drop and the lack of retaliation to that aid drop before mentioning that in the past far more trivial things have been seen as acts of war. In a discussion about that precise topic. I believe in randomness and coincidence but I think the chances that this comment appeared in this discussion is unlikely to be either random or coincidental.

Conforming to my thoughts has nothing to do with it. Interpreting the context of a comment seems to be the issue for you. However, I do admire your keenness to reach a higher level of enlightenment. One day, grasshopper....one day...

[Varianz]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1318666023' post='2825532']
No, it's not, but this is:

[17:33] <@Pollard> NSO are supplying us with the screen shots.

I was thinking for a bit that you personally were going out of your way to !@#$ all over them, but it just occurred to me that you didn't even know, did you?

I almost feel bad.
[/quote]
Holy hell it took long enough for that to come out. Speaking as "the supplier" of aforementioned screenshots, I have to say I'm surprised it took this long. Two different highly placed people on Legion's side of things shared those logs with me the day we entered the war. Actually, now I'm not surprised. It kind of fits Legion's actions- wait until the VE downgrade on Tetris takes effect before declaring, find out that someone in NSO was the source of the screenshots, ignore it because attacking NSO directly is unfeasible, hit Tetris instead. And everyone thought Legion were changing for the better .

Anyways, the rest of NSO gov weren't aware of the fact I was the source of the info until about 10 minutes ago when I told Rayvon. I shared the information with various people, including some in Tetris. Will I reveal how I got the screenshots? Nah. I'll leave Legion wondering if they still have a spy (although I'd point out that they had another forum screenshot leak a few months ago on CNtel). I'm sure they'll go through and demask half the small new nations in their alliance, which will be entertaining. Speaking of demasking, I wonder how long mine lasts on the NSO forums...

Why did I do it? Mostly because I hate Legion with a passion. We've already kind of covered that in the various rants NSOers have had about Legions actions in the DH-NPO war. Or rather, lack therof.

Cue the entertaining commentary from the peanut gallery!

Edited October 15, 2011 by Varianz