Recognition of Angry People

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1317696911' post='2815401']
I like your style, sir.

RV, you come across as uncertain, even fearful. I'm not sure if that's your intent. But there it is.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You are reading too into things. This is an easy victory for the NSO. We may certainly not have Legion's size, however, we do have experience, activity, and coordination. That will make up for any statistical differences.

As for my "pandering," I have always been a fan of alliances with spine. I detest Invicta, as I think Haflinger is a complete idiot, but I will never deny having some respect for them for having spine. I may be an optimistic fool, but I am hoping this is a sign that Legion is no longer the alliance of peace mode warriors. Lord knows we have enough of those types of pathetic excuses.[/color]

[Heft]

[quote name='Maverick87' timestamp='1317695012' post='2815355']
I dont get where this whole idea of Tetris being wronged is coming from. I remember when NPO tried the same route. You know that whole getting new gov and saying sorry (and gettin beatdown) amd they got declared on for what they did years ago. This all happened a week ago? Suck it up Tetris.
[/quote]
I don't recall saying that Tetris had been wronged. I just refuse to buy into the idea that this is some valiant moral stand on the part of Legion. It's nothing more than an alliance that has been poked by many people, myself included, for many months now finally lashing out.


That they chose to do so against the one alliance to provoke them that has actually shown any sign of remorse or conciliation over the provocation is what interests me. None of the rest of us ever bothered to budge an inch, while Tetris actually demoted those responsible without outside coercion and showed a willingness to right the issue. Yet it is here that Legion has finally decided to grow a spine and make an ill-advised stand. To me that just is a little weird.

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Ridin High' timestamp='1317696943' post='2815402']
Yeah, I don't have a time machine, of course I can't change what we did in the past. What I did was take correct action, which actually shows we were sincere. And a government overhaul most certainly changes the believes of the government.
[/quote]

Good news, Random, we're in the clear! Polaris doesn't have to deal with all the consequences of Bipolar that Grub brought because we changed our government!

Edited October 4, 2011 by Mergerberger II

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Ridin High' timestamp='1317697100' post='2815411']
Do you have proof Hereno spied on The Legion?
[/quote]
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105532

[Scorn]

[quote name='Ridin High' timestamp='1317692192' post='2815271']
Before you go off trying to make a case for Legion's innocence you should know that we did much more than "reshuffle government." A vote of no confidence on your leader after publicly humiliating your alliance should be the first inclination that we were sorry about what happened. Our PoFM had also elected to step down from his post. Then I went to Legion and apologized to at least two members, one being Totem himself. I also said I would personally investigate where the screenshots were from. I guess they decided they didn't really care and attacked without asking me what I had found out, only like what? One or two days after I told them it would never happen again. Oh yeah I also said I would apologize to their entire alliance on their board.[/quote]



At any point did you ask Legion what you and by extension your alliance could do to make amends? Because telling Legion the things you would do is not the same thing. Even if the things you offer are the same things that would be requested. It reminds me of UPN bartering with Non Grata and then being surprised that the aggrieved party wasn't looking for a round of bartering but was wanting restitution on their own terms.

[quote]Well Legion, I am ending my investigation and all previous offers are off the table. Apparently you would rather defend your honor than do some diplomacy and work with a government who has a completely different opinion of the previous administrations actions.
[/quote]

Recanting on your offer doesn't say much for your honor. For those who care for such things.

[Lord Hershey]

[quote name='Ridin High' timestamp='1317697100' post='2815411']
Do you have proof Hereno spied on The Legion?
[/quote]

[quote]On September 24th, Hereno MoFM (former) of Tetris acquired and disseminated information purposefully spied from the private forums on the Legion. When Pollard: Speaker for the Heavens (former) of Tetris was contacted concerning the matter and asked if the government of Tetris supported his actions...[/quote]

That came from Legion.

Edit: Schattenmann, thanks for adding the evidence to this thread. Much appreciated

Edited October 4, 2011 by Lord Hershey

[Maverick87]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1317697140' post='2815414']
I don't recall saying that Tetris had been wronged. I just refuse to buy into the idea that this is some valiant moral stand on the part of Legion. It's nothing more than an alliance that has been poked by many people, myself included, for many months now finally lashing out.


That they chose to do so against the one alliance to provoke them that has actually shown any sign of remorse or conciliation over the provocation is what interests me. None of the rest of us ever bothered to budge an inch, while Tetris actually demoted those responsible without outside coercion and showed a willingness to right the issue. Yet it is here that Legion has finally decided to grow a spine and make an ill-advised stand. To me that just is a little weird.
[/quote]

My apologies. I quoted the wrong post. There are some running around acting as if these changes were a cure all for this issue, but you make a valid point. Why now?

Edited October 4, 2011 by Maverick87

[Thrash]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1317697140' post='2815414']
None of the rest of us ever bothered to budge an inch, while Tetris actually demoted those responsible without outside coercion and showed a willingness to right the issue.
[/quote]

I find it really hard to believe there was no outside coercion. They may not have directly said it, but actions speak louder than words.

[D34th]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1317697346' post='2815420']
Good news, Random, we're in the clear! Polaris doesn't have to deal with all the consequences of Bipolar that Grub brought because we changed our government!
[/quote]

Amazing news!

[RandomInterrupt]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1317697346' post='2815420']
Good news, Random, we're in the clear! Polaris doesn't have to deal with all the consequences of Bipolar that Grub brought because we changed our government!
[/quote]
My life just got so much easier!

[Pingu]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1317697822' post='2815437']
My life just got so much easier!
[/quote]

If only you'd follow ODN's lead and have elections every couple of minutes you'd never have to be responsible for anything ever again!

[Heft]

[quote name='Maverick87' timestamp='1317697466' post='2815427']
My apologies. I quoted the wrong post. You do make a good point though, but there are some running around acting as if these changes were a cure all for this issue.
[/quote]
The changes coupled with the new government's apparent openness to actually helping resolve the issue made it clear that Legion actually, in this case, had an opportunity to handle this with diplomacy if they so chose. I understand why they did not choose that route: it was more important at this point for Legion to "prove" their willingness to fight for their honor and all that other nonsense than to handle this peacefully. I don't have a problem with that. I had no real desire to fight Legion, and was quite frankly bored of poking them, but if they want to start a war with our allies then sure let's go for it. The sudden moral posturing on the part of the peanut gallery is, while expected, a rather entertaining about-face from the months of people egging on anyone that provoked Legion, and given the specific circumstances certainly rings false, but it wouldn't be a proper alliance war without hypocritical moral posturing now would it?

[quote]I find it really hard to believe there was no outside coercion. They may not have directly said it, but actions speak louder than words.[/quote]


I'm not familiar with all of the details, but I can confidently say that no one on our side actually expected Legion to "do something about it," as it were. The actions undertaken by Tetris, therefore, were of their own volition and, at least in their mind, not done under the usual sort of duress that is normally needed to induce any sort of corrective behavior.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

Please escalate, please escalate, please escalate.

On a side note, Legion deserves some respect for not letting people run over them, Good job guys.

Also, waiting for NpOptional.

Edited October 4, 2011 by SoADarthCyfe6

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1317697140' post='2815414']
I don't recall saying that Tetris had been wronged. I just refuse to buy into the idea that this is some valiant moral stand on the part of Legion. It's nothing more than an alliance that has been poked by many people, myself included, for many months now finally lashing out.[/quote]
It takes two to tango. Tetris messed with the bull, and now they're getting the horns. The fat kid only takes so much crap before he realizes he's bigger, but he doesn't knock over a third party when he figures it out.

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1317697140' post='2815414']
That they chose to do so against the one alliance to provoke them that has actually shown any sign of remorse or conciliation over the provocation is what interests me. None of the rest of us ever bothered to budge an inch, while Tetris actually demoted those responsible without outside coercion and showed a willingness to right the issue. Yet it is here that Legion has finally decided to grow a spine and make an ill-advised stand. To me that just is a little weird.
[/quote]
I think it's an unfortunate situation. On one hand, I want to say "Oh, poor Tetris." Hereno has been their public face of smacktalkery for months. If Hereno was not representative of Tetris as an organization, then they should have removed him a log time ago, not after he finally crossed the line he'd been pushing forever.
Did Legion over-react? I don't think so. And in part of my judgement I'm confident that because Legion is not like so many other alliances, they're not going to really go overboard and start talking about permawar and everything dying, and I would be surprised--no, floored--if reps over the bare minimum are asked for, if at all. We're on day one, but I'm not worried because Legion gives me no reason to worry. And after all, that's exactly why Tetris leaked Legion screenshots from CNtel and not some other alliance, isn't it?

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1317698015' post='2815440']
The changes coupled with the new government's apparent openness to actually helping resolve the issue made it clear that Legion actually, in this case, had an opportunity to handle this with diplomacy if they so chose. I understand why they did not choose that route: it was more important at this point for Legion to "prove" their willingness to fight for their honor and all that other nonsense than to handle this peacefully. I don't have a problem with that. I had no real desire to fight Legion, and was quite frankly bored of poking them, but if they want to start a war with our allies[/quote]
Your allies started the war.

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1317698015' post='2815440']
The sudden moral posturing on the part of the peanut gallery is, while expected, a rather entertaining about-face [/quote]
My dear, Heft, I am an obelisk of consistency.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Schattenmann

[King Wally]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1317697346' post='2815420']
Good news, Random, we're in the clear! Polaris doesn't have to deal with all the consequences of Bipolar that Grub brought because we changed our government!
[/quote]

Quote of the thread there...

[Logan]

[quote name='Lord Hershey' timestamp='1317697464' post='2815426']
That came from Legion.
[/quote]

That is only proof we posted screenshots. Where is the proof that we actually did the spying?


[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1317697370' post='2815422']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105532
[/quote]

Spying is not the same thing as posting screenshots. You are being intellectually dishonest confusing the two terms.

[quote name='Scorn' timestamp='1317697430' post='2815425']
At any point did you ask Legion what you and by extension your alliance could do to make amends? Because telling Legion the things you would do is not the same thing. Even if the things you offer are the same things that would be requested. It reminds me of UPN bartering with Non Grata and then being surprised that the aggrieved party wasn't looking for a round of bartering but was wanting restitution on their own terms.[/quote]

I did, and I was complying. I am a little surprised because I agreed to two things right away and had assumed they would come with more things they wanted us to do and eventually come see what the investigation produced. Being attacked while fulfilling their requests to get over all of this was not what I was expecting at all.



[quote]Recanting on your offer doesn't say much for your honor. For those who care for such things.
[/quote]

Neither does attacking after making requests to get over the situation. If they were not interested in reconciliation, why should I further comply with their requests? Though they were more concerned with looking like they have a spine and getting NSO involved. Such is the way of the world I suppose.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Ridin High

[zzzptm]

This is all quite fascinating. I wonder how events will eventually unfold.

Best of luck to the soldiers on both sides, for they are the ones on the sharp end of the war.

[The Big Bad]

You know Tetris I think it would be best if you just shut your mouths and let your allies save you from Legion. You deliberately provoked Legion because you had seen others do it and thought you could be cool and do it too. You failed. Now Legion is killing you and you are left to having embarrassed allies come save your stupid ass from fricking Legion. LEGION for Admins sake!! I know the word pathetic is tossed around on Planet Bob a great deal but, this is truly one of the most pathetic spectacles I have ever seen. So hang your heads low and consider just disbanding to save yourself the shame of what you have become while others come in to clean up your mess. Owned by Legion, that has to be one for the record books.

Edited October 4, 2011 by The Big Bad

[USMC123]

I love how people keep harping on the fact (yes it is a fact) that Tetris government supported Hereno's posting of screenshots on OWF. What they don't mention is by our government, they mean Pollard, the same individual who was kicked out of his job, barred from government, and left the alliance.

Pollard =/= government support, hence why we had a Vote of No Confidence and removed him from power (this isn't exactly easy to do btw). Logan already mentioned he worked to make amends with Legion. Ignoring certain aspects of a debate hurts your argument.

EDIT:

Those thinking we had outside coercion, you are wrong. Seriously, we did it because it was necessary, and had nothing to do with any outside pressure.

Edited October 4, 2011 by USMC123

[Stormsend]

Today is a good day.

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1317698053' post='2815441']
Please escalate, please escalate, please escalate.

On a side note, Legion deserves some respect for not letting people run over them, Good job guys.

Also, waiting for NpOptional.
[/quote]

Man, I don't know what we did to you, but you sure do love to hate.

[img]http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/039/080/original/5008_9c00_420.gif[/img]

[Thrash]

[quote]Spying is not the same thing as posting screenshots. You are being intellectually dishonest confusing the two terms.[/quote]

You are correct, it's not the same. But, by posting screenshots, you have exposed that information to the general public who wouldn't have seen them had you not done it.

[quote]I love how people keep harping on the fact (yes it is a fact) that Tetris government supported Hereno's posting of screenshots on OWF. What they don't mention is by our government, they mean Pollard, the same individual who was kicked out of his job, barred from government, and left the alliance.

Pollard =/= government support, hence why we had a Vote of No Confidence and removed him from power (this isn't exactly easy to do btw). Logan already mentioned he worked to make amends with Legion. Ignoring certain aspects of a debate hurts your argument.[/quote]

You guys are doing a big about-face. C'mon you're a lolz AA, you're supposed to be spreading lolz. And also obligatory everyone is excused of their misdeeds because they changed things up.

edit: typo

Edited October 4, 2011 by Thrash

[Satsukage]

Good luck to the alliances involved

[Heft]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1317698114' post='2815442']
It takes two to tango. Tetris messed with the bull, and now they're getting the horns. The fat kid only takes so much crap before he realizes he's bigger, but he doesn't knock over a third party when he figures it out.[/quote]
Fair enough, though it remains to be seen whether Legion can be described as a "bull." I look forward to seeing what sort of horns they have developed over the last half-year.

[quote]I think it's an unfortunate situation. On one hand, I want to say "Oh, poor Tetris." Hereno has been their public face of smacktalkery for months. If Hereno was not representative of Tetris as an organization, then they should have removed him a log time ago, not after he finally crossed the line he'd been pushing forever.
Did Legion over-react? I don't think so. And in part of my judgement I'm confident that because Legion is not like so many other alliances, they're not going to really go overboard and start talking about permawar and everything dying, and I would be surprised--no, floored--if reps over the bare minimum are asked for, if at all. We're on day one, but I'm not worried because Legion gives me no reason to worry. And after all, that's exactly why Tetris leaked Legion screenshots from CNtel and not some other alliance, isn't it?[/quote]
I doubt Legion will get the chance to impose any reparations or terms.

[quote]Your allies started the war.[/quote]
No, they didn't.

[quote]My dear, Heft, I am an obelisk of consistency.[/quote]
Yes, you're one of the better ones around here in that regard, and that comment wasn't really targeted at you. But you are certainly the minority.

[EpsilonPhoenix]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1317695526' post='2815367']
[color="#0000FF"]I believe most agree with that. I can only hope that Legion can retain this newfound pride even after its defeat. Such an attitude will serve them well in the future. Quite frankly with this move whatever past criticisms of Legion I have had are evaporated. The alliance has changed. Still, that does not mean I shall tolerate this attack on Tetris.[/color]
[/quote]
I look forward to seeing an NSO blitz tonight.