Open Invitation from the SuperFriends

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1312935583' post='2776238']
To any in SF, especially CSN.

Do you find it odd that the same people who decry you as evil etc about charging reps have themselves been guilty of charging reps and giving terms that were far more harsh than those you gave DT?
[/quote]

We are the flavor of the last war; that's how it's always been. Be that as it may, it still doesn't excuse much of anything.

[Omniscient1]

Does it hurt your feelings that Ardus thinks you are a bloc of "liars and cheats"

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1312936187' post='2776249']
Does it hurt your feelings that Ardus thinks you are a bloc of "liars and cheats"
[/quote]

No more GOD? And to answer your question: no, not at all. MK (specifically Ardus) hating us is hardly anything new at this point.

[MaGneT]

A question to CsN:

Do you think it is wise to have Liz in charge of your alliance? Please shed some light on the thought process (or lack thereof) that lead to this decision.

[Rush Sykes]

Question for CSN:

At the end of the last war, I full well expected your cancellation, I could see it coming with each of Rsox "daily reminders" to you about you making asses of yourself on the DT front. I was, and am fine, with a cancellation based on that, because it was a deterioration of the relationship. What I do not, nor will I ever get, was the need for you to give a 2nd reason for cancelling. That we were "trying to manipulate you into peacing DT by threatening you with GR retribution." Based on logs of things that were said in the coalition channel. The notion that Athens would manipulate you , or openly talk about manipulating you, in front of so many of your allies was silly. Part of the reasoning for this was based on conversation between Goose and Shamed saying that he understood what Goose was doing, and had no real problem with it. You did all this, and based everything on what Shamed said, despite my constantly telling your gov (anyone who would listen).. that Shamed 1) was not GR gov... 2) did not even have a nation... 3) was retired from active CN politics. Do you, in hindsight, see how silly it was for you to base what you thought in regards to GR, on what Shamed would tell Goose, despite Ilselu1 (who was indeed leading GR, but largely inactive), Kestral (ALWAYS active and was GR gov), Wurzel(always active and was GR gov) all stating to me on at least 1 ( and in 2 of those 3 cases, many more than 1) occasion, that they just wanted to roll CSN to get them the *bleep* off of DT? Is it CSNs gov policy to negotiate alliance stances with people who dont exist in game? Was it a poor idea to include the "Athens tried to manipulate us" part into the decision to cancel? Because, the truth is, all you did was make Athens an enemy.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1312937764' post='2776264']
Question for CSN:

Do you, in hindsight, see how silly it was for you to base what you thought in regards to GR, on what Shamed would tell Goose, despite Ilselu1 (who was indeed leading GR, but largely inactive), Kestral (ALWAYS active and was GR gov), Wurzel(always active and was GR gov) all stating to me on at least 1 ( and in 2 of those 3 cases, many more than 1) occasion, that they just wanted to roll CSN to get them the *bleep* off of DT?[/quote]

To my knowledge, while that may have contributed to the end-result (you'd have to ask Goose in all honesty), a lot of it also dealt with Athen's sudden moralism.

[quote]Is it CSNs gov policy to negotiate alliance stances with people who dont exist in game?[/quote]

Nope.

[quote]Was it a poor idea to include the "Athens tried to manipulate us" part into the decision to cancel? Because, the truth is, all you did was make Athens an enemy.
[/quote]

Maybe?

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1312938727' post='2776276']
To my knowledge, while that may have contributed to the end-result (you'd have to ask Goose in all honesty), a lot of it also dealt with Athen's sudden moralism.
[/quote]

In my opinion,I only took issue with it because Dark Templar was an ally of Greenland Republic who was a CnG member at the time. Put us in a sticky situation that we didn't like.

If GR requested our help rolling CSN back then, I believe every CnG signatory would of obliged.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1312939297' post='2776284']
In my opinion,I only took issue with it because Dark Templar was an ally of Greenland Republic who was a CnG member at the time. Put us in a sticky situation that we didn't like.

If GR requested our help rolling CSN back then, I believe every CnG signatory would of obliged.
[/quote]

I wouldn't doubt that since, at the time, CnG was a definitely tight-knit group still, albeit different (I guess?). Anyways, I don't doubt that sentiment in the least bit.

[Avery du Troiseau]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1312939406' post='2776286']
I wouldn't doubt that since, at the time, CnG was a definitely tight-knit group still, albeit different (I guess?). Anyways, I don't doubt that sentiment in the least bit.
[/quote]

Ehhhh. I wouldn't doubt the current strength of CnG bonds.

[iamwalrus]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1312896272' post='2775786']
You have the essentials here mostly correct, but as one of the people who was directly impacted by this, I have to say there's stuff wrong in this paragraph.

The ruler in question was RicoVacilon, a former member of the VG Coalition who had moved to Black Team after VG left Red. He was raided by GOD and ArGo. He demanded that they pay reps or he was going to nuke them; they refused to pay reps so he nuked and was promptly sanctioned by Sparta. (Yes, years ago, Black still had the same policy it does now - be at war with a well-connected alliance and we will sanction you).

[b]One reason GOD gave for attacking LoFN (an unannounced ODP bloc) was that LoFN awarded RicoVacilon a medal for heroically nuking his raiders. Rico deleted not long afterwards of course.
[/b]
He did nuke first though.

Learz's thread about RicoVacilon: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=22199

GOD, ArGo, Andromeda DoW with a CB of "It's Walford": http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=23632
[/quote]

Nations Empowered Against Totalitarianism was one of the alliances grouped together in this witch hunt. I contest the statement that LoFN was an unnanounced bloc, and the intel on LoFN was awful. We in NEAT signed a document stating that LoFN was a sovereign group of nations, and because of that statement we were destroyed and forced to disband.

I would like to point out again, that the logs used to bring us to our demise were falsified...Our alliance has been proven innocent, and thus we have risen to be much stronger since then. In the words of a wise nation..."We have buried the hatchet, we just remember where."

[flak attack]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1312939297' post='2776284']
In my opinion,I only took issue with it because Dark Templar was an ally of Greenland Republic who was a CnG member at the time. Put us in a sticky situation that we didn't like.

If GR requested our help rolling CSN back then, I believe every CnG signatory would of obliged.
[/quote]
Jgoods, I don't think you understand, helping your allies friends is clearly a case of moralism. Any other opinions on the matter are absurd.

[Steve Buscemi]

Thank you for not answering my questions. That makes my opinion about your bloc that much easier to make.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1312951985' post='2776469']
Thank you for not answering my questions. That makes my opinion about your bloc that much easier to make.
[/quote]

Yes, it appears SF is making all readers like it even more!

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]Hi, SF. I've got a question. Two actually? What do you think of Youwish's announcement made other day? What do you think of the fact that the NSO still has not disbanded (despite the best efforts of someone)?

Also, I don't your alliances.[/color]

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1312952567' post='2776473']
Yes, it appears SF is making all readers like it even more!
[/quote]

I don't know, most of the answers they give are pretty dumb anyway so being ignored isn't that bad.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1312927877' post='2776155']
For CSN:

Why won't you apologize for the DT debacle?

Are you trying to make any amends over it seeing as that lifeline was thrown earlier in the thread?[/quote]

I've said it earlier in the thread, so I'm not sure if you want mine or someone else's answer, but I won't because I'm using it as a learning experience. Take the lesson and move on. I get why people would apologize and everything, but it's just not me.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1312933114' post='2776209']
You should note that what you think of myself, feanor or TOP in general is pretty much irrelevant, because nobody in TOP likes CSN. I know you said the above-quoted bit in response to a question, but I figured you'd want to be made aware of this.
[/quote]

Then why was I worth your time to respond? Someone has low self-esteem.

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1312934441' post='2776225']
Perhaps if you had competent leadership then you wouldn't have had to outsource your decisions. You might have also had the capacity to analyze your situation with some degree of objectivity, because the fact that your actions were reprehensible alone could not deter you. Then again, senseless bloodlust always seems to take charge over reason...[/quote]

It was Goose's decision, contrary to prior beliefs.

[quote]Ah, and what have we learned? Don't treat people like crap when they did nothing wrong at all? Don't let Pxychosis run your alliance for you? Try your jolly hardest to grovel for public support when you don't even have the humility to make amends for your wrongdoings?
Truly admirable. Hats off. [/quote]

I'm not groveling for anyone's support. I'm telling you straight up. If I was groveling for support I'd lie and say I'm sorry.

[quote]Well, clearly because it was our fault for entering on an optional treaty and then beginning peace discussions when we heard the front was closing off! We still haven't admitted our grave mistake, so why should they apologize for responding justly and in kind!
[/quote]

I don't think anyone ('cept Penkala) is blaming you.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1312935583' post='2776238']
To any in SF, especially CSN.

Do you find it odd that the same people who decry you as evil etc about charging reps have themselves been guilty of charging reps and giving terms that were far more harsh than those you gave DT?
[/quote]

No. That seems to be the norm. I just chuckle.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1312936187' post='2776249']
Does it hurt your feelings that Ardus thinks you are a bloc of "liars and cheats"
[/quote]

Again, it amuses me.

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1312937006' post='2776260']
A question to CsN:

Do you think it is wise to have Liz in charge of your alliance? Please shed some light on the thought process (or lack thereof) that lead to this decision.
[/quote]

Liz is very active, she basically kept CSN alive for 9 months (at least) on her own (or almost her own). You may not like her, but she does good work.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Gibsonator21

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1312937764' post='2776264']
GR snip[/quote]

Goose was the one who dealt with GR.

[quote]Is it CSNs gov policy to negotiate alliance stances with people who dont exist in game?[/quote]

To quote the Legendary SpacingOutMan, "Nope."

[quote]Was it a poor idea to include the "Athens tried to manipulate us" part into the decision to cancel? Because, the truth is, all you did was make Athens an enemy.
[/quote]
Eh. From what I remember you were doing plenty to get us off DT for other reasons. So no. Though I could totally be mis-remembering. It's much too late to go check logs right now, though. I'll talk to you on IRC if you'd like though, Rush?

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1312956168' post='2776513']
[color="#0000FF"]Hi, SF. I've got a question. Two actually? What do you think of Youwish's announcement made other day? What do you think of the fact that the NSO still has not disbanded (despite the best efforts of someone)?

Also, I don't your alliances.[/color]
[/quote]

The one about a year from the 6 Million Dollar war? I liked it. Surprised me it's been that long since I stood up for you guys, but yeah, I liked it. Makes me feel like I've been here too long, though.

And I'm glad, I like you guys.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1312964519' post='2776542']
I've said it earlier in the thread, so I'm not sure if you want mine or someone else's answer, but I won't because I'm using it as a learning experience. Take the lesson and move on. I get why people would apologize and everything, but it's just not me.

[/quote]

For something that's causing this much damage to your position, don't you think it's worth doing that, since if you'll "take the lesson" you probably also recognise that there was a problem? I mean, the inability of your alliance to apologise is partly why our alliance relations got so bad.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1312965638' post='2776548']
For something that's causing this much damage to your position, don't you think it's worth doing that, since if you'll "take the lesson" you probably also recognise that there was a problem? I mean, the inability of your alliance to apologise is partly why our alliance relations got so bad.
[/quote]
Because we're not. No one would believe it, and not only would we be "terrible and immoral," but we'd be liars.

And no it isn't. They're this bad because you wouldn't talk without trolling. The only posts I recall that weren't attacks or !@#$%*ing were Lizzy's (I'm sure there were others, but those are the ones I remember), and she was the MoFA. But no need to talk CSN-GATO relations here, if you wanna continue with that feel free to PM me or find me on IRC. I'm sure we'd have quite the interesting chat.

[hizzy]

I for one am glad CSN isn't going to apologize.

It'll make ZIing the whole lot of you easier.

[WalkerNinja]

What do you think of toast?

[Voodoo Nova]

What do you think about waging wars using OOC reasons?

[trance addict]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1312966194' post='2776551']
Because we're not. No one would believe it, and not only would we be "terrible and immoral," but we'd be liars.

And no it isn't. They're this bad because you wouldn't talk without trolling. The only posts I recall that weren't attacks or !@#$%*ing were Lizzy's (I'm sure there were others, but those are the ones I remember), and she was the MoFA. [b]But no need to talk CSN-GATO relations here[/b], if you wanna continue with that feel free to PM me or find me on IRC. I'm sure we'd have quite the interesting chat.
[/quote]


But the Topic title is "Open Invitation from the SuperFriends", you a super friend right? I mean CSN. So please, could you discussed indepth and in detail CSN-GATO relations? I am quite interested.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1312979428' post='2776597']
What do you think of toast?
[/quote]
It's a little dry on its own. I'd rather just leave it as bread if there isn't something with it.

[OOC]
[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1312981111' post='2776610']
What do you think about waging wars using OOC reasons?
[/quote]
The way this game's politics are played, it's very difficult to tell where exactly that line is, to the degree that the line dividing OOC from IC is often defined based on political expediency. That has got to be some kind of meta-level joke we're all playing on ourselves.

In spite of that, I do find separating OOC from IC as much as possible to be best practice. Doing so has allowed mento maintain friendships with a lot of people who were otherwise in-game enemies at various points. I think that has to do with attitude as much or more than actions, though.

For instance, if I find out a hated neighbor is an alliance leader in CN, I'm not going to attack him over it. If he finds out I know, and thinks I might attack him, that makes me a possible in-game threat to him. What does he do then? Try to move against me, as an IC threat, despite the cause being OOC? Ignore it because it's OOC and risk getting attacked unprepared? (No risk of that, but he doesn't necessarily know that for sure.) And then, of course, how do I respond to that.

Once real life information has entered the game sphere, it's extremely difficult not to let that color things. I don't say this as something I believe is a good thing, but the vast majority of people don't have the level of control over their own thoughts to, at the very least, keep from [I]wondering[/I] what IC effect OOC information will have on the actions of others, and even doing that incorporates OOC information into the political sphere.

In the strictest sense, will I support a war against someone solely because of who that person is outside the game? No. I do recognize that this is a much more complex question than most people allow for, however.
[/OOC]

Edited August 10, 2011 by Delta1212

[Dracule Mihawk]

Maybe a wee bit off-topic, but my thanks to SF for the nostalgic trip back to the time of 40+ page threads. Ah...good times, good times.

-Drac