A Statement from Doomhouse

[neneko]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1300374249' post='2667722']
Eternal war one of the 2 choices you are forcing on them
[/quote]
This is the worst rhetoric I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of your posts.


[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1300374396' post='2667725']
Unlike MK we have standards, we dont pre-emptively attack alliances because we are paranoid or bored.
[/quote]
That's news to me. Weren't you the guy that brought up the baps war before?

Edited March 17, 2011 by neneko

[pezstar]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1300374196' post='2667721']

The present Order is incapable of bringing its members either [b]Strength[/b] or [b]Prosperity[/b]. It can only bring [b]Peace[/b] in the form of a dove on a war screen. The dream of Franco's Spain is being slaughtered, and not by Doomhouse.



[/quote]

With few exceptions, the folks fighting NPO are unable to offer strength or prosperity either. NPO has absolutely nothing to lose in refusing to do as you are asking. Their foes have much more to lose.

[Learz]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1300360824' post='2667579']
A) Don't complain about getting it handed to you in the middle tiers when you declared an aggressive war in which your middle tier was out numbered and your opponents wisely chose to fight in those ranges.

B) I am pretty sure that is the general idea. Why get absolutely destroyed when you can go into PM and you know...not get absolutely destroyed.

C) You probably should consider it. The war is not currently fightable in the upper tiers, in the mid and lower tiers you are getting beaten pretty badly. We are able to come out of PM, wreck nations, go back to PM without even picking up aggressive wars.

To add to the list.

D) Your vaunted efficiency is out the window, your top tier can't grow either because you are funneling money to GOONs to keep them moving in the under 5000ns fighting range and you are under the threat of war, so many of you are having to collect at about 1/2 your pre-war infra, even in the upper tiers that only fought for a round or two.

E) So NPO sits stagnant at the top, you sit nearly as stagnant there. Your middle and lower tiers are getting beaten up badly and allies are also suffering due your war of unprovoked aggression.

F) You do realize that after one round of war with your gigantic tech nations that your upper tier will once again be out of range of most of NPO's current PM nations? At that point your middle tier will be facing about 2 more rounds of war even more severely outgunned than they are now.
[/quote]
This is an accurate summery. We were starting to take bets on when DH would come to us offering terms.
Also, an additional point is that DH has pledged to not perma-war (although given their checkered past that is quite doubtful). So really, what incentive do we have to take their terms? We're in a fine position right now.

[Monster]

[quote name='Learz' timestamp='1300374524' post='2667728']
This is an accurate summery. We were starting to take bets on when DH would come to us offering terms.
Also, an additional point is that DH has pledged to not perma-war (although given their checkered past that is quite doubtful). So really, what incentive do we have to take their terms? We're in a fine position right now.
[/quote]

Haha. You are really ignorant of the situation if you think that's how it's gone down. "DH would come to us." Nice one.

[neneko]

Once again our huge shady past is brought up and once again I find myself asking, what exactly is it that we've lied so much about?

I realize that NPO and friends might not be quick to trust us seeing as we're currently at war and that's a great reason but I don't really get where all these unspecified lies in our past comes from. From what I recall we've always been pretty upfront about our intentions.

[simon2269]

[quote name='feardaram' timestamp='1300374042' post='2667717']
It's not eternal if we could just get it over with.
[/quote]

The problem with this logic is that the only thing you are satisfied with is the destruction or complete removal of NPO (see your earlier post). So let us assume you achieve your aim and get your month of war, what stops this happening again and again every time NPO dares to start to rebuild. Your only aim is to perma war NPO, the only slight difference in your version of PW is you pretend that peace is achieved then just up and declare again when ever you fancy for no reason.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone should begin to believe you or anybody else in your alliance when you have continually stated your aim of destroying the NPO. Come out for a month and then you can peace out, honest its the truth. You will of course reserve the right to change your mind at a minutes notice either once PM has been exited or a nano second after the month has ended.

[feardaram]

[quote name='simon2269' timestamp='1300375179' post='2667734']
The problem with this logic is that the only thing you are satisfied with is the destruction or complete removal of NPO (see your earlier post). So let us assume you achieve your aim and get your month of war, what stops this happening again and again every time NPO dares to start to rebuild. Your only aim is to perma war NPO, the only slight difference in your version of PW is you pretend that peace is achieved then just up and declare again when ever you fancy for no reason.

I see absolutely no reason why anyone should begin to believe you or anybody else in your alliance when you have continually stated your aim of destroying the NPO. Come out for a month and then you can peace out, honest its the truth. You will of course reserve the right to change your mind at a minutes notice either once PM has been exited or a nano second after the month has ended.
[/quote]
Fine (and I can see your point), then those nations can stay in PM forever and stop playing. It doesn't much matter to me. Neither option is supposed to be truly appetizing, but more the lesser of two evils.

Edited March 17, 2011 by feardaram

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1300374478' post='2667727']
With few exceptions, the folks fighting NPO are unable to offer strength or prosperity either. NPO has absolutely nothing to lose in refusing to do as you are asking. Their foes have much more to lose.
[/quote]

What, how? The cost of keeping your entire upper tier in peace mode for an extended period of time is massive. The cost of sitting around waiting for a war to happen is negligible. Doomhouse loses very little if NPO refuses to come out.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300373748' post='2667714']
It was in response to being asked what was required for peace. It's not DH coming out out of nowhere. Interpreting it as a mere callout thread is missing the point.
[/quote]

"Calling out" the enemy may not have been what initiated it, but I think we both know that it is more or less what this turned into.

You also know I'm right...this is not a war you want to fight any more. I was in \m/ during VietFAN (the FAN-WUT portion). First part of the war was great fun, kicked some tails, gathered tech/land. Second part I spent a lot of time babysitting ZIed or mostly ZIed nations that would throw two CMs everyday, chipping away at my infrastructure--boring and irritating only began to describe it. I counted myself happy and lucky to finally get out of the trenches and move on to better things.

Ultimately DH may break the stalemate here, but not being completely at peace puts you behind those that are, whatever brave face you want to put on it.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300373511' post='2667709']
It doesn't make sense to preempt someone when the war they're being preempted in hasn't started.[/quote]
Yes, that is kind of the point. Following your logic, it seems you could justify such a strike so long as you knew (or assumed) what alliances were committed to the war.

[quote]The actions of third parties when they'd have to be coordinating with NPO does matter. For example, some alliances tied to NPO were committed to entering, the end result being that most of NPO's allies would be engaged. If NPO doesn't enter regardless, it puts the NPO in the position of being easy pickings afterwards. Legion was a mandated defender, for instance when Polar was declared on. In that case, a strike on Legion or NSO that would force the issue would have made the most sense from a justification standpoint, but not from a logistical standpoint as they aren't the main alliance NS wise in that cluster of things.[/quote]
The actions of third parties matter in that context from a strategic sense if you considered war with NPO to be inevitable in the first place. Thus, calling it a "preemptive" strike seems to be an exercise in PR to justify an attack that DH always intended to carry out at some point, with or without the PB/NpO war. This seems to be supported by your [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=99845&view=findpost&p=2666038"]reference[/url] to the "strategic dynamic for declaring" as justification for why NPO would not be given peace under a preemptive strike, when the conflict that has onstensibly given rise to the said strike has already ended.

[Doitzel]

[quote name='feardaram' timestamp='1300375356' post='2667735']
Fine (and I can see your point), then those nations can stay in PM forever and stop playing. It doesn't much matter to me. Neither option is supposed to be truly appetizing, but more the lesser of two evils.
[/quote]
lol, oh boy

[RustyNail]

Honestly, if it were me, i'd rather come out and fight, have fun with my opponents and enjoy the game. Sitting in peace mode is boring [OOC]and will inevitably lead to deletions from loss of interest. When it comes down to it, it's up to us, the players of this game, to make it interesting.[OOC] I don't have any vested interest either way but I'm here to have fun, not twirl my thumbs.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1300374196' post='2667721']
Why are you wasting your time with this? You're the only man alive that remembers the call to Order. There is real work to be done among your fractured progeny, and harassing posters on the OWF is not going to get it done.
[/quote]
Thank you for the sentiment. I appreciate it.

And you are correct to a great degree. Unfortunately I am old and no longer have the influence I once held. Many doors are shut to me along that avenue these days and even if they were open other influences on my time would prevent anything more than guidance and counsel, which is only sought out by two of the three Orders these days to any degree at all.

On topic, why are so many people clamoring on about this being a long drawn out war? It has been less than two months. Who knows, maybe after they annoy the piss out of you by staying in peace mode for four months and you lose interest or your attention fades and your rhetoric continues to be tired and recycled they will come out and give you the fight you want on their terms? It is possible.

Honestly though, I don't have time for much more than the random harassment. Starting tomorrow I will not even be online at all for nearly ten days, so I have to get it in now before I leave.

[Guffey]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1300335880' post='2666977']
A prolonged siege that strips NPO of half its income while costing Doomhouse almost nothing doesn't really seem like that great of a strategy to me.
[/quote]


Because having many nations in bill lock and losing 1.5-3k tech in your lower tiers nations each wont hurt you one bit in the next war.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300343833' post='2667347']
Because I believe they'll enjoy the assault on the Kingdom as much as we'll enjoy tearing up their upper ranks. I have no illusions about this: if they accept, it is my alliance that will stand front and center against their response, more than any other.

So many seem to subscribe to this illusion that NPO's emergence will see them destroyed without cost to the destroyers. I do not demand unilateral annihilation. I demand satisfaction, y'all.
[/quote]

are you kidding me. Let us take a look at numbers real quick:

NPO- Top 37 nations range from 61k-172k. 9 of these nations are over 100k.
Umbrella- Top 32 nations are all over 100k. Range is 100k-188k.
MK- Top 36 nations range from 70k-145k. 10 of these nations are over 100k.

so just from 2 alliances (not including FAN or NoR), that is 41 100k nations versus 9. that is 4.5 to 1 odds which means that ya'll can easily cycle your 100k nations in and out of peace mode unless NPO up declares. so yes, it would basically be a unilateral annihilation.

that is not including the 70 nations from Umb/MK that are between 60k and 100k compared to NPO's 28. a 2.5 to 1 odds there. again not including FAN or NoR. so, yes, you are indeed asking for a unilateral annihilation of NPO and i highly doubt you did not know the numbers were quite favorable to you before stating this. so, it appears you are trying to be quite deceitful if not just outright lying your !@#$@#$ ass off. i vote the second option.

if you bring Legion into this to try and allow NPO to gain more upper NS nations, we should not forget that Legion is also fighting all of CnG, which would most likely love to hit the upper NS nations of Legion. so, there is no bother because after the 1st week, Legion will no longer be hitting MK or Umb, if they even manage that many to begin with since i already know CnG are waiting impatiently for their upper tier nations to get out of PM.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Guffey' timestamp='1300376422' post='2667749']
Because having many nations in bill lock and losing 1.5-3k tech in your lower tiers nations each wont hurt you one bit in the next war.
[/quote]

What kind of lower tier nations have 3k tech to lose?

[Penkala]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1300334460' post='2666905']
The two aren't exactly directly linked, if that's what you are implying.
[/quote]

Yes they are.

Regardless, I, too, invite Pacifica to stand up and fight. I can't wait to help out my friends in GOONS with what nations are at war. Sometimes it's nice being 4,000 NS.

[Guffey]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1300376727' post='2667752']
What kind of lower tier nations have 3k tech to lose?
[/quote]

Well they started at 50k-70k NS with 3-5k tech, now they are low tier. also MK's previous Lord High Vanguard - ZId, no money, lost 2k tech now, and stuck in war. Great MoW right there.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Guffey

[Voytek]

[quote name='Guffey' timestamp='1300376898' post='2667756']
Well they started at 50k-70k NS with 3-5k tech, now they are low tier. also MK's previous Lord High Vanguard - ZId, no money, lost 2k tech now, and stuck in war. Great MoW right there.
[/quote]
I am interested in hearing the thoughts and views of your fellow Avalonians on this matter. Where are they?

edit: As far as our previous LHV goes [OOC]he all-but quit the game when he stepped down owing to IRL matters[/OOC]

Edited March 17, 2011 by Voytek

[Guffey]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1300377153' post='2667759']
I am interested in hearing the thoughts and views of your fellow Avalonians on this matter. Where are they?

edit: As far as our previous LHV goes [OOC]he all-but quit the game when he stepped down owing to IRL matters[/OOC]
[/quote]

around here and there. [OOC] well that never good, best of luck to his RL [/OOC]

Edited March 17, 2011 by Guffey

[Voytek]

Any chance of a guest appearance on these august boards?

[Guffey]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1300377474' post='2667764']
Any chance of a guest appearance on these august boards?
[/quote]

Theres only about 3 or 4 of us that frequent these boards. One might show up, though not sure if they will comment on my comment.

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300376404' post='2667748']
Thank you for the sentiment. I appreciate it.

And you are correct to a great degree. Unfortunately I am old and no longer have the influence I once held. Many doors are shut to me along that avenue these days and even if they were open other influences on my time would prevent anything more than guidance and counsel, which is only sought out by two of the three Orders these days to any degree at all.[/quote]

Very sad. There are elements in each of the Orders that work so well that if they were recombined and given a new path, things would get very interesting indeed.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300376404' post='2667748']
On topic, why are so many people clamoring on about this being a long drawn out war? It has been less than two months. Who knows, maybe after they annoy the piss out of you by staying in peace mode for four months and you lose interest or your attention fades and your rhetoric continues to be tired and recycled they will come out and give you the fight you want on their terms? It is possible.

Honestly though, I don't have time for much more than the random harassment. Starting tomorrow I will not even be online at all for nearly ten days, so I have to get it in now before I leave.
[/quote]

They're clamoring about it because the last time this term was issued, the war drew out for two years.

All FAN had to do to get peace was to come out of peace mode. They never did, so they never got peace.

Now FAN is leading the charge on NPO and issues the same term.

It's all very Charles Dickens.

Edited March 17, 2011 by WalkerNinja

[Cager]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300338309' post='2667104']
Very true, because you were such a key player back then, right?

I never said it was a "big deal" I pointed out the error of your young comrades statement.
[/quote]


I was always a key player Ivan. I know you're jealous.

[Learz]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300374845' post='2667731']
Haha. You are really ignorant of the situation if you think that's how it's gone down. "DH would come to us." Nice one.
[/quote]
Opening discussion is one thing. Making an offer is another. Negotiating 101.
The fact that not only did you grant discussions but came up with terms is very revealing, as has been mentioned previously. Hehheh.