An Imperial Announcement from the New Pacific Order

[Letum]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1300047076' post='2663258']
If you had done this months ago or even years ago, maybe you wouldn't still be a pariah. But it's far too late for that.
[/quote]

Doomhouse's persecution and attack have little to do with FAN.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Letum

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1300047459' post='2663261']
Doomhouse's persecution and attack have little to do with FAN.
[/quote]

You're absolutely correct. Which makes this see-through apology even funnier. What did you hope to accomplish with this? Split FAN and Nordreich from Doomhouse, perhaps? It's laughably desperate.

[Letum]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1300047757' post='2663268']
You're absolutely correct. Which makes this see-through apology even funnier. What did you hope to accomplish with this? Split FAN and Nordreich from Doomhouse, perhaps? It's laughably desperate.
[/quote]

The main reason people would characterize this apology as see-through is because they might think it is guided by some goal of self-preservation. So you'd think that if they can make the connection that there is no possible way for such an apology apology to actually serve that goal (because FAN is not the threat to our preservation), then they could also make the connection that [i]maybe[/i], just [i]maybe[/i], this might be genuine.

But no, it's still see-through, and in the absence of some actual political interest we must be insane. Yeah, that is pretty funny.

[Ardus]

I prefer "prosecution" to "persecution", but that's just me.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1300048489' post='2663283']
The main reason people would characterize this apology as see-through is because they might think it is guided by some goal of self-preservation. So you'd think that if they can make the connection that there is no possible way for such an apology apology to actually serve that goal (because FAN is not the threat to our preservation), then they could also make the connection that [i]maybe[/i], just [i]maybe[/i], this might be genuine.

But no, it's still see-through, and in the absence of some actual political interest we must be insane. Yeah, that is pretty funny.
[/quote]

Sorry if I don't swallow the story that NPO has suddenly become repentant and its just a coincidence that it happened while Doomhouse and FAN are grinding the Order into dust.

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1300021734' post='2662866']
Thos will be hard for you to believe..but..opinions do change

hindsight 20/20 and such
[/quote]
Oh, I understand that, and in fact most of the complaints about the NPO seem to have been that they [i]hadn't[/i] seen the light, so on the face of it this is welcome. But usually such a change of heart comes about because of new information or a particular event, whereas here it seems to be a very convenient 'Oh yes we agree with you now' when they're being rolled.

Why have we seen an apology to FAN, who are currently attacking them, but not to GATO or GPA?

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300049758' post='2663309']
Oh, I understand that, and in fact most of the complaints about the NPO seem to have been that they [i]hadn't[/i] seen the light, so on the face of it this is welcome. But usually such a change of heart comes about because of new information or a particular event, whereas here it seems to be a very convenient 'Oh yes we agree with you now' when they're being rolled.

Why have we seen an apology to FAN, who are currently attacking them, but not to GATO or GPA?
[/quote]
Does the GPA want one?

[Ardus]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1300050028' post='2663311']
Does the GPA want one?
[/quote]
Does it matter? I would think this New New Pacific Order, having found Christ and all, would just go and do it because it is the right thing to do.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300043422' post='2663164']
I will agree with that sentiment. I don't believe anyone is stating that you and the rest of the gallery can not have your opinions, simply that such opinions are not important.
[/quote]
Sure, but I didn't accuse anyone of policing opinions. I commented on someone stating that, as this is addressed to FAN, they'd prefer if others would voice their opinions elsewhere. And that's silly.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300049758' post='2663309']Why have we seen an apology to FAN, who are currently attacking them, but not to GATO or GPA?[/quote]
Apology to GATO has been given, during Moo's reign.

Again, this is public so everybody can comment on it, but at the same time third party comments do not matter for this apology.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1299995906' post='2662512']
-lol if we did as much as speak up on the owf we'd have been rolled and you know this
[/quote]
Not what i meant and you know it. NPO may or may not have been some big bad monster, i wasnt here for alot of it, but what stopped you from going to #nsa and querying Moo or someone in the know on this and having a chat with them. Furthermore how many chats did you have with MHA, Valhalla, IRON, the rest of the alliances who helped keep FAN down.

Didnt think so

[quote]Why have we seen an apology to FAN, who are currently attacking them, but not to GATO or GPA? [/quote]
Again, NPO was not alone in this. Wheres the bashing for the other alliances who helped in this.

Edited March 13, 2011 by wickedj

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1300050534' post='2663319']
Not what i meant and you know it. NPO may or may not have been some big bad monster, i wasnt here for alot of it, but what stopped you from going to #nsa and querying Moo or someone in the know on this and having a chat with them. Furthermore how many chats did you have with MHA, Valhalla, IRON, the rest of the alliances who helped keep FAN down.

Didnt think so


Again, NPO was not alone in this. Wheres the bashing for the other alliances who helped in this.
[/quote]
You seriously believe Moo, Valhalla, or IRON would have listened? At that point? You're insane. MK and MHA were enemies from the foundation of the aqua sphere until partway through 2008, and at that point we were pretty often in communication with them on various subjects and I really don't doubt FAN came up. I personally laid low because I at the time had been on the GGA P-ZI list for two years.

[Chief Savage Man]

Having a chat with the Pacifican Emperor circa 2008 about how he's doing the wrong thing.


Come on wickedj, I know your head isn't THAT far up your ass.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299988668' post='2662273']
What a goddamn surprise, it's Doomhut, coming out to deride and jump all over this thread.
[/quote]
I'm sorry HoT but this thread really is a joke, with or without Voytek's input.

[Cager]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1300008315' post='2662751']
Well, I cannot give Vlad's opinion on this apology but I do want to ask Cager how easily his opinion changes when it comes to FAN. After all, it was cager who said this in regards to FAN being given white peace. Also, why do you care so much Kalasin?



How does it work Cager, NPO cannot apologise but you can? Actually, have you ever apologised to FAN for your part in the hostilities against them? Or am I asking a hypocrite a question he cannot answer with an honest answer or did FAN suddenly become your best friend when you left NPO? If only NPO made friends as easily as you do Cager, they wouldn't be friends of merit but that is beside the point isn't it?
[/quote]

Also. It is somewhat ironic. You guys did give them white peace. Technically gave them freedom. And they turned on you. Full circles and such.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1300050534' post='2663319']


Again, NPO was not alone in this. Wheres the bashing for the other alliances who helped in this.
[/quote]

Sorry to bust your bubble but we personally HAVE spent nearly 2yrs talking to FAN and trying to set things from the past right. I believe we were successful as we currently have a cordial relationship with FAN.

Thank you for your concern though wj...

Edited March 13, 2011 by chefjoe

[Dan100]

[quote name='PinkV' timestamp='1299988936' post='2662292']
This is a wonderful time to surrender.
[/quote]

This topic is an apology to FAN

I don't see anything about surrending

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300050113' post='2663314']
Does it matter? I would think this New New Pacific Order, having found Christ and all, would just go and do it because it is the right thing to do.
[/quote]
They seem to be somewhere between [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program#Twelve_Steps"]Steps 8 and 9[/url].

[flak attack]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1300051608' post='2663338']
Having a chat with the Pacifican Emperor circa 2008 about how he's doing the wrong thing.


Come on wickedj, I know your head isn't THAT far up your ass.
[/quote]
Come on man, it worked out so well for Polar.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1300046512' post='2663244']
I do not know whether it is intentional or not, but your words an implication that our behaviour didn't change. It has; NPO has been the least aggressive and damaged the fewest people out of any major alliance since Karma, save for neutrals. What accusations of a lack of change refer to is not our behavior, but rather that the basis for our behavior is insincere.
[/quote]

That's kind of the point. You don't get credit for not fighting in the yard when the guards are still aiming rifles at you. You haven't tried to be aggressive because you knew any attempt to do so would be suicide. Saying you haven't done anything to anybody loses its punch when you finish that thought off with "because nobody would let you try"

So, yes NPO has been quite and peaceful for a while now, but that stems more from opportunity and ability (or lack of) than desire.


[quote]In that context, what "it would have had no effect" refers to is the various theories that are being proposed of actions that might have assuaged our opponents about our intentions. Our counterargument is quite valid there; we did not sit idly twiddling our thumbs for the past 2 years, even though it is of questionable moral character to assert that an alliance making no threatening moves has the onus to prove it is not a threat. Yet we tried that. We did talk to people, we did get good relationships with former opponents.[/quote]

When you have the (deliberately crafted over years) image of the worlds villain, sitting quietly and doing nothing after you've been dethroned don't cut it. You need to take proactive steps to dispel the image of villain. Considering you spent years building it, its fair to say its not an image you will dispel with a couple of quick Q&A's.

[quote]However, for some of our opponents - conveniently the very same ones in whose interests it is to maintain a belief that we are dangerous to them - none of our actions were enough. Hence, what our argument is advancing is that were we to have taken the extra actions that have been claimed, it would have still not been enough. In such an alternate reality, we would have still more conditions imposed on us in order to prove that we should not be attacked.[/quote]

I think its less a case of not enough and more a case of it being easier for your mistakes to convince people nothing had changed than it was for your steps forward to progress. It takes a great deal of time and effort to repair a public image and only one mistake to backslid to square one.

And its not about proving you should not be attacked, its about changing your image so attacking you isn't so easy. I've said it before, I'm saying it again. This war is working because The Orders (both of them) are just that unpopular. This has been one of the most even wars CN has ever seen. If you weren't so damn disliked it would not have been possible at all. At that point, even moving your relations with the vast majority of people up to "indifferent" would have worked. You don't need to be friends with everybody, you just need to not be enemies with everybody.

[quote]To put it plainly, what that means is that all these "actions" that people claim we could have done are merely excuses to serve as a necessary justification in lieu of any actual provocation on our part. A different geopolitical situation would have simply brought with it a different set of excuses.[/quote]

Not so, a different situation would probably never have seen this war at all, its not about excuses on why you were attacked, its about your own long term FA failures to prevent attacks. Any alliance that works as hard as NPO at collecting enemies needs to work at least as hard at collecting friends or somebody will come gunning for you.


[quote]We have not attempted to escape the responsibility for our actions in the distant past, and have made no actions in the more recent past that have some form of controversy attached we might seek to escape from. [/quote]

That's because you can't. Again you don't get credit for good behavior when the guards are still watching. NPO was well aware that picking a fight would end poorly for them. You don't get to claim good behavior until its actually your choice, rather than a reality forced upon you by political circumstances.

[quote]And whilst those actions we are responsible for might have colored the perceptions of people, thereby attaching some of our responsibility on to that as well, those third parties are responsible for their own actions. Any implications to the contrary would be an escapist and illegitimate claim of its own.
[/quote]

Don't deflect, its part of the problem. Shifting blame to people who are not under discussion won't help you, in fact its a great example. All the people you'd like to blame made the proper FA outreaches to defuse most (if not all) of the grudges they might have picked up, while NPO took the stance of just sitting in a corner. Just because it is your history does not mean you can dismiss it with a hand wave.

[quote]
The closest things we have been able to do, such as giving large packets of aid to our friends who faced war or trying to protect raided red nations, were either viewed with absolute indifference or as a deliberate provocation at worst.
[/quote]

That's part of your problem, as detailed in the other thread. When the large packages of aid to your friends are going to people like NSO who are deliberately being little turds, it sends the message you approve of their behavior. You become associated with that behavior and inherent that much more bad public image. As I've said before, if you are number one on somebodies hitlist signing treaties with numbers two thought five is not a deterrent to attack, its an invitation.

Now I'm not telling you you cannot choose your own friends, but all means do so. But don't act surprised when your friends stepping in it splashes some on you by association.

[threefingeredguy]

This thread is absolutely crazy.

[Jake Liebenow]

Ivan, can you please be in charge of NPO again? Just so the parts of the OWF that aren't going "BAWWWWWWW, WHERE'S MY APOLOGY BECAUSE NPO IS SO MEAN AND STUFF AND I HATE TACOS AND BAWWWWWWWWW" soil themselves as well?

Edited March 13, 2011 by Jake Liebenow

[Doitzel]

lol ily alterego

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1300050534' post='2663319']
Not what i meant and you know it. NPO may or may not have been some big bad monster, i wasnt here for alot of it, but what stopped you from going to #nsa and querying Moo or someone in the know on this and having a chat with them. Furthermore how many chats did you have with MHA, Valhalla, IRON, the rest of the alliances who helped keep FAN down.
[/quote]
It was discussed. The general consensus was "too late to turn back now". Looking here it's hard to tell if they weren't correct. Those that came along later just rationalised to themselves with the treaty obligations spiel.

Anyway none of them really matter. The original betrayal goes back way further than most of those alliances. Many of them are dead. Pacific is the only alliance that remains which isn't just an enabling passer-by; they retain much of their structure and some of the leadership from those days. FAN isn't looking for hugsies and kissies, here. The question between the two remains "why the **** should I trust you, ever?" That's probably why this spectacle is perceived as necessary.

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1300051914' post='2663345']
Sorry to bust your bubble but we personally HAVE spent nearly 2yrs talking to FAN and trying to set things from the past right. I believe we were successful as we currently have a cordial relationship with FAN.

Thank you for your concern though wj...
[/quote]
You really should have jumped ship a lot sooner, you know. Well, I know you know. But, you know! It's a shame that certain others still haven't paid for their passive role while Valhalla still takes **** for things they [i]have[/i] tried to correct.

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1300052909' post='2663365']
Come on man, it worked out so well for Polar.
[/quote]
I lol'd.

[Dan100]

[quote name='threefingeredguy' timestamp='1300053020' post='2663368']
This thread is absolutely crazy.
[/quote]
How is it crazy?

Edited March 13, 2011 by Dan100

[Maelstrom Vortex]

This is long overdue and very sincere. I said during Karma myself I disagreed with policies of PZI or keeping any person down for over 2 years time in warfare, but I followed my orders and stood with Pacifica even if I did not have my hands involved in those historic events which lead to this day. I am glad to see how much Pacifica has improved since I've joined her. What does not kill us makes us stronger.. and we shall continue to evolve.