An agreement of peace

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1299284551' post='2652873']
Things only started getting out of hand numbers-wise a week or two ago when the NpO front started collapsing, allowing CnG to enter this front. But to say it was a curbstomp from the beginning is an outright fallacy.
[/quote]

But you don't deny that it is a curbstomp now right?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1299263970' post='2652584']
OK, so what you're now saying is that we [i]didn't[/i] attack TPF.

I of course understand TPF's [i]involvement[/i] because I'm not an idiot. THey came to the defense of their ally, and that is laudable. I'm not talking about TPF's involvement. I'm talking about an alliance who entered on an optional aggression clause claiming they entered defensively.

I have no problem with 64d being in this war, I just want them to cowboy up and admit that they choose to be here and are here in an aggressive capacity.

Not that it really makes that much difference.
[/quote]
If you look at the individual treaties and individual declarations, sure, you could reach a little and say we entered 'aggressively.' But that is wildly ignorant of the big picture. We are here to defend our allies and friends, a number which does also include Pacifica, even in the absence of written ties. The attack on Pacifica was not an attack on just Pacifica, it was an operation designed to target this entire region of the treaty web, and to annihilate us. We are defending ourselves from your aggression, make no mistake about it.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1299285034' post='2652884']
But you don't deny that it is a curbstomp now right?
[/quote]
I'd say that there's not much curbstomping going on, due mainly to the Hopeless Coalition's peacemode strategy. I'd say it's more of a lop-sided stalemate, tbh.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1299284999' post='2652882']
No matter how *honorable* you are, that doesn't magically change the clause you invoked to join this war from being optional aggression. In terms of paper and politics and not morality, you were [i]not[/i] obligated to join this war. Get that through your skull.
[/quote]In terms of politics, absent 'morality,' we were indeed obligated to join this effort. 64Digits has a running policy where we consider, from our end of the deal, all of our treaties to be the equivalent of a MADP level treaty. It is the only honorable consideration to make. Our allies are well aware of our stance, this isn't just some secret policy I made up on the spot.

Our political relationship with TPF, furthermore, much like the "gentleman's agreement" NoR cited on their entry which GOONS has hailed, runs far deeper than the paperwork might indicate. It is more akin to mutual aggression.

Aggressive? Sure, I might be able to give you that, if you can reach that far. Optional? Not in the slightest.

Edited March 5, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[mobmentality]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299274805' post='2652717']
Right, because GOONS is the morally superior alliance in this conflict

Let me get this straight: GOONS declares an unprovoked aggressive war, for the repeated reason that you just want to smash stuff, but you're the good guys? How damned delusional do you have to be? What the hell are they feeding you guys over there?
[/quote]

I never said we're the good guys. We're more like THE guys. You know? Something is broke, who do you call? You call the guys who fix it. Something needs to be broken, same thing. We do it all baby.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299282525' post='2652835']
Actually, when GOONS keeps bringing it up, it makes them look worse and worse. We're loving that you keep trying to assert that you are somehow owed reps. It is one of the easiest PR victories we could hope for, and you're handing it to us on a silver platter. And when you inevitably force alliances to disband because they refuse to pay your fees, well, I don't think the public is going to let something like that stand. It is going to bring your end.

The best part is, the ones with the power to prevent your downfall are you yourselves, but your own pride prevents you from saving yourselves.
[/quote]
Can you really call it a PR victory if the people who matter don't give a damn if a few terrible alliances disband because they refused to pay reasonable rep amounts? Because I can pretty much guarantee that nobody on our side, and probably a good bit of your side, is going to care about making you disband because you thought yourself too good to pay a simple and low sum. In case you haven't figured it out, the majority of your side is concerned with their well-being and that of their immediate allies, and not terribly interested in fighting some grand crusade against the evil GOONS monster.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Sardonic

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1299287532' post='2652914']
Can you really call it a PR victory if the people who matter don't give a damn if a few terrible alliances disband because they refused to pay reasonable rep amounts? Because I can pretty much guarantee that nobody on our side, and probably a good bit of your side, is going to care about making you disband because you thought yourself too good to pay a simple and low sum. In case you haven't figured it out, the majority of your side is concerned with their well-being and that of their immediate allies, and not terribly interested in fighting some grand crusade against the evil GOONS monster.
[/quote]
Oh Sardy, this delusional little bubble world you live in is quite funny to hear you rant about.

First, 64Digits can only disband if all members leave. There will never be a disbandment notice, unless the last man out the door sees fit to post one. And I am blessed to have some of the most loyal members this world has to offer. We may be small, but we are a tight group of nations.

Second, I think a "reasonable amount of reps" would be in Doomhouse paying NPO for the damage they caused. Collecting the spoils of an aggressive war, like you seek to do, is [i]never[/i] reasonable.

Third, I find it funny that you know so much about the intent of this side. Hm, I don't recall seeing you in the leadership section of our coalition boards, perhaps you choose to simply lurk in our high command IRC channels?

Fourth... I am not some 'crusade' against GOONS, as much as you want me to be. [i]I don't even hate you[/i], as damaging as revealing that fact will be to your over-sized ego. I plan on leaving when my allies leave. And, lucky for me, they share my mentality with regards to reps.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299288734' post='2652949']
Oh Sardy, this delusional little bubble world you live in is quite funny to hear you rant about.
[/quote]
At the risk of sounding trite, allow me to retort which a colloquial "No, you".

[quote]
Second, I think a "reasonable amount of reps" would be in Doomhouse paying NPO for the damage they caused. Collecting the spoils of an aggressive war, like you seek to do, is [i]never[/i] reasonable.
[/quote]
"lol".
[quote]
Third, I find it funny that you know so much about the intent of this side. Hm, I don't recall seeing you in the leadership section of our coalition boards, perhaps you choose to simply lurk in our high command IRC channels?
[/quote]
Part of being a leader is talking to people on the other side to get complete pictures of the situation. You don't strike me as the type to do that however, so I don't expect you to understand.

[Thrash]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1299284551' post='2652873']
The stats support his statement. When FAN, MK, Umbrella and GOONS declared on NPO, they held only a slight advantage in most statistical categories (score, number of nations, nation strength, nuke count, ect). When the bulk of NPO's allies (and NPO's allies' allies) countered (against GOONS), NPO's side actually had a by and large statistical advantage. There was a good month or so there where, if NPO's coalition had played their cards right, they could have done a LOT more damage to us. Instead, they turtled and played the curbstomp card.
[/quote]

That's all fine and dandy if you expected none of NPO's allies to come in or any of your allies to counter that. There is this thing called treaties ya know.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1299284551' post='2652873']
The stats support his statement. When FAN, MK, Umbrella and GOONS declared on NPO, they held only a slight advantage in most statistical categories (score, number of nations, nation strength, nuke count, ect). When the bulk of NPO's allies (and NPO's allies' allies) countered (against GOONS), NPO's side actually had a by and large statistical advantage. There was a good month or so there where, if NPO's coalition had played their cards right, they could have done a LOT more damage to us. Instead, they turtled and played the curbstomp card.

Things only started getting out of hand numbers-wise a week or two ago when the NpO front started collapsing, allowing CnG to enter this front. But to say it was a curbstomp from the beginning is an outright fallacy.
[/quote]

You should go back and look at the stats.

At the beginning, MK/Umbrella/GOONS had a [b]large[/b] statistical advantage, when NPO's allies came in, NPO's side only had a very slight advantage. The numbers are all there if you would care to do the research instead of making things up.

Edit: to save you the trouble, you can look at the wiki entry for the war, specifically the section on stats.

[url]http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_House-NPO_War#Stats[/url]. Pay attention to the difference of Day 1 (with only NPO vs. MK/Umbrella/GOONS/FAN, compared to Day 3 after NPO's allies entered). Your comments of "at first it was even and then the other side was way ahead" would only be accurate if you only look at the number of nations, but obviously the statistics of total strength, score and nukes paint a different picture then you would like to.

Edited March 5, 2011 by memoryproblems

[JT Jag]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1299289354' post='2652962']
You should go back and look at the stats.

At the beginning, MK/Umbrella/GOONS had a [b]large[/b] statistical advantage, when NPO's allies came in, NPO's side only had a very slight advantage. The numbers are all there if you would care to do the research instead of making things up.

Edit: to save you the trouble, you can look at the wiki entry for the war, specifically the section on stats.

[url]http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_House-NPO_War#Stats[/url]. Pay attention to the difference of Day 1 (with only NPO vs. MK/Umbrella/GOONS/FAN, compared to Day 3 after NPO's allies entered). Your comments of "at first it was even and then the other side was way ahead" would only be accurate if you only look at the number of nations, but obviously the statistics of total strength, score and nukes paint a different picture then you would like to.
[/quote]Ok, I may have understated things with a "slight" advantage, but historically speaking when you look at world wars in the past, a two-to-one advantage for the declaring side on day one before counters is fairly unremarkable.

Edited March 5, 2011 by JT Jag

[Heft]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1299287532' post='2652914']
Can you really call it a PR victory if the people who matter don't give a damn if a few terrible alliances disband because they refused to pay reasonable rep amounts? Because I can pretty much guarantee that nobody on our side, and probably a good bit of your side, is going to care about making you disband because you thought yourself too good to pay a simple and low sum. In case you haven't figured it out, the majority of your side is concerned with their well-being and that of their immediate allies, and not terribly interested in fighting some grand crusade against the evil GOONS monster.
[/quote]
To be fair, no rep amount that you come up with will be reasonable.

Any terms offered to anyone on this side of the war will be, by the nature of this conflict, unnecessary and unwarranted. Yes, even those terrible, terrible deviants that honored an "optional" pact.

[The Trail]

Part one of the goons rebuild fund.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299275712' post='2652727']
You also missed the part where I said you should stop living in this delusional world of yours where everyone is only in this because they want to get a shot off at GOONS. Unwarranted self importance much?
[/quote]
I should remind everyone that the person making this claim was trying to convince the WCE to plant a dummy alliance for GOONS to raid so they could have a reason to attack us.

[Vol Navy]

I wish you DH people could get a story straight. The big bosses at Umbrella are saying this is a coalition war and that your side doesn't even need a treaty chain to enter any front, just go where needed. Then you have Beefspari saying every single alliance at war with GOONs besides NPO are the aggressors on their front. Lamuella seems somewhere in the middle of the pack.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1299291309' post='2652990']
Ok, I may have understated things with a "slight" advantage, but historically speaking when you look at world wars in the past, a two-to-one advantage for the declaring side on day one before counters is fairly unremarkable.
[/quote]


Yes, and you never ever had alliances waiting in the wings, like say...TOP to enter either did you? Your side had a massive advantage from day one. You never would have lauched this attack unless that was assured. Heck, the massive tech advantage that UMB and the upper tier of MK has over this side who have spent two years getting stomped and paying reps basically means their nations pretty much double the damage of nations on this side in the same NS ranges.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1299301086' post='2653150']
I should remind everyone that the person making this claim was trying to convince the WCE to plant a dummy alliance for GOONS to raid so they could have a reason to attack us.
[/quote]
"I don't have a good response to his point, so I'm just going to dig up the past and make a shameless character attack instead"

[quote name='The Trail']Part one of the goons rebuild fund.[/quote]
Indeed, part one of one.

[lamuella]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299284761' post='2652879']
It is not my fault that you cannot hope to understand the concept of honor.
[/quote]

I understand well enough what you think the concept of "honor" is. Behind your pretty words it means doing what you want and claiming that makes you morally superior.

[lamuella]

[quote name='HeroofTime55']The attack on Pacifica was not an attack on just Pacifica, it was an operation designed to target this entire region of the treaty web, and to annihilate us.
[/quote]

No, it was an attack on just the NPO, no matter how much anyone else may wish to play the victim card.

However, I do wonder how you come to know so much about our intentions. As a wise man once said...

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299288734' post='2652949']
I find it funny that you know so much about the intent of this side. Hm, I don't recall seeing you in the leadership section of our coalition boards, perhaps you choose to simply lurk in our high command IRC channels?
[/quote]

Edited March 5, 2011 by Lamuella

[Monster]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1299307707' post='2653269']
I wish you DH people could get a story straight. The big bosses at Umbrella are saying this is a coalition war and that your side doesn't even need a treaty chain to enter any front, just go where needed. Then you have Beefspari saying every single alliance at war with GOONs besides NPO are the aggressors on their front. Lamuella seems somewhere in the middle of the pack.
[/quote]

Where is the clash? You can be aggressive while participating in a coalition war. Was 10-12 alliances on GOONS needed? Or was it a good way of getting a cheap shot in? Given the history between GOONS and several of the alliances who are not directly treatied to the New Pacific Order that attacked them, they knew what they were getting into.

[Lord Curzon]

I'm glad to see my buddies in Olympus get peace.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1299312867' post='2653357']
I'm glad to see my buddies in Olympus get peace.
[/quote]All the quicker Duckroll can move towards forgetting about how they let their multiple allies (plus one bloc-mate) burn in this war.

But I suspect you won't forget for too long, when Doomhouse decides to go for you without a CB and there is nobody left alive to help you out. I'll be waiting with a nice fat "Told ya so" when that day comes.

Edited March 5, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[Monster]

Yes, keep playing that card. It's definitely going to happen. Imminent threat.

[AndrewHG]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1299312536' post='2653350']
No, it was an attack on just the NPO, no matter how much anyone else may wish to play the victim card.

However, I do wonder how you come to know so much about our intentions. As a wise man once said...
[/quote]


"Everyone must die?"

[neneko]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299314291' post='2653364']
All the quicker Duckroll can move towards forgetting about how they let their multiple allies (plus one bloc-mate) burn in this war.

But I suspect you won't forget for too long, when Doomhouse decides to go for you without a CB and there is nobody left alive to help you out. I'll be waiting with a nice fat "Told ya so" when that day comes.
[/quote]
Yupp duckroll is next. The latest TOP/IRON announcement was just a ruse to cover the fact that TOP is already on board with these plans and will in fact be the first ones to attack with the cb that IRON was hogging too many of the citrus exchange slots.