War and Consequence

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Qaianna' timestamp='1295943716' post='2599582']
Who exactly were the ones calling for people to use the 'we don't liek you' casus belli? (This is a legitimate question..)
[/quote]
I'm to lazy to look through to find specific quotes, but I've seen plenty of people attacking "bad" CBs and saying that they should be "honest" about their motives. And plenty of people in NPO and NSO have used the "if you want a war with us why not just declare on us or are you too scared?" line.

[Dementual]

You speak truths in waves, Comrade.

o/

[Vladimir]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295943614' post='2599576']
I find it amusing to see to see you saying all this Vladimir, it contradicts your other essays about power spheres.

Our "hegemony" allows for far more dissent. People don't fear that we will kick in their door if one of their members criticizes us, like in the past. We don't EZI anyone for opposing us. We don't impose viceroys or forced disbandments.

You attacked people for contrived CBs. Many people have been calling for a more "honest" CB, one that says that "we don't like you". Well, here it is, and everyone is still complaining.

This war will be a lot closer than the curbstomps from when NPO was in power.[/quote]
It is perfectly in line with what I have written previously once you recognise the paradigm shift in play, as Grub rightly pointed out. Your post, however, contradicts itself in a rather unforgivable way. How is it possible that in one paragraph you can say that "people don't fear that we will kick in their door if one of their members criticizes us", and in the very next paragraph you can speak of alliances on the basis of just not liking them?

Herein lies the issue. CBs, for better or worse, have always largely been for the benefit of uninvolved alliances. The CB said to these alliances 'you are not involved here and it doesn't matter if you remain uninvolved'; that is to say, it reassured them that they did not face danger because they were not partaking in the sin that got the alliance into trouble. By doing away with CBs and just attacking people because they looked at you the wrong way once 4 years ago you deny this to uninvolved parties and create a completely apolitical environment. Instead of reassuring them you say 'you could be next', and indeed, a number of your cheerleaders have made this threat explicit to their general audience.

So people have a very good reason to fear that you will kick in their door if one of their members criticises you, or looks at you wrong, or sneezes and catches your attention, or you just get a bit bored one day and decide to attack a random alliance using the 'dart and map' methodology, because this is exactly what you are saying you are going to do.

[eyriq]

Again Vladamir, not really. Your door is getting kicked in exactly because of who you are; this allows for exactly the divide you are saying their CB prohibits, the contentment in knowing that by not being 'NPO' one can know that "you are not involved here and it doesn't matter if you remain uninvolved". Come on now, every CB has a defining logic to the participants actions, even one as blatantly honest as 'we don't like you'.

[Zeta Defender]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1295945196' post='2599660']
Come on now, every CB has a defining logic to the participants actions, even one as blatantly honest as 'we don't like you'.
[/quote]

To be honest, where does that CB start and end as "we don't like you" can be OOC and IC.

OOC: Hell this was the same justification that Hitler used to kill the Jews and take over the world, because, "he was creating the perfect world." Anyone who believed this will end any better is sadly mistaken.

First They came... - Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists ,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

[b][color="#FF0000"]Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.[/color][/b]

Edited January 25, 2011 by Zeta Defender

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295943614' post='2599576']
I find it amusing to see to see you saying all this Vladimir, it contradicts your other essays about power spheres.

Our "hegemony" allows for far more dissent. People don't fear that we will kick in their door if one of their members criticizes us, like in the past. We don't EZI anyone for opposing us. We don't impose viceroys or forced disbandments.

You attacked people for contrived CBs. Many people have been calling for a more "honest" CB, one that says that "we don't like you". Well, here it is, and everyone is still complaining.

This war will be a lot closer than the curbstomps from when NPO was in power.
[/quote]

yea if mk doesnt force pacifica to disband like some are saying then ill agree with you on all points. i have my doubts that ill be proven wrong though

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295944024' post='2599596']
I'm to lazy to look through to find specific quotes, but I've seen plenty of people attacking "bad" CBs and saying that they should be "honest" about their motives. And plenty of people in NPO and NSO have used the "if you want a war with us why not just declare on us or are you too scared?" line.
[/quote]

just because people would rather you be honest that make up a bogus cb doesnt mean theyll be any happier. it just makes you more honest and makes the fight a little funner if youre not after one anothers throats for a grudge

[eyriq]

@Zeta Defender
lol man, but I think the variables entailed in DOOMHOUSE not liking the NPO are almost impossible for some other alliance to ever coordinate. For that reason-the sheer impossibility of an alliance ever collecting quite the set of variables that define NPO-the idea of a slippery slope leading to a [i]who's next[/i] scenario is quite improbable. That coupled with the quantitative fact that DOOMHOUSE is indeed not a hegemony leaves any propaganda trying to paint DOOMHOUSE as world breakers transparently hyperbolic.

Edited in who I was responding to

Edited January 25, 2011 by eyriq

[Crymson]

[quote name='Zeta Defender' timestamp='1295945642' post='2599679']
To be honest, where does that CB start and end as "we don't like you" can be OOC and IC.

OOC: Hell this was the same justification that Hitler used to kill the Jews and take over the world, because, "he was creating the perfect world." Anyone who believed this will end any better is sadly mistaken.

First They came... - Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists ,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

[b][color="#FF0000"]Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.[/color][/b]
[/quote]

How rich. I recall seeing the same quote once when your alliance decided to curbstomp another for no reason. Do you think anyone believes that they'd be best off under the NPO's gentle (sarc) dominion?

[Zeta Defender]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1295948181' post='2599730']
How rich. I recall seeing the same quote once when your alliance decided to curbstomp another for no reason. Do you think anyone believes that they'd be best off under the NPO's gentle (sarc) dominion?
[/quote]

Do you think anyone would be better in a world with no rules short of doing it for the lulzs?

[neneko]

Oh how I long for the prosperous multipolar world we had under the NPO rule.

Was that really how it was? I, like many others here, have a hard time remembering anything from over a year ago. I blame it on radiation poisoning.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Bakunin's Dream' timestamp='1295936555' post='2599152']
Vladimir gets it right, laziness and ****ty attitudes killed the one thing CN ever had going for it. Without anything that looks like politics the game is basically Halo 3 but with technology from 25 years ago. This game is done and I'm glad I don't give a **** anymore because if I did I'd be really depressed.
[/quote]
This is one of the most hilarious/true things I have ever read.

[Jazzy95]

I'm just confused as to why people still don't want to help NPO. You all had your Karma, move on. From what I've seen the NPO has been trying very hard to bury the old and prove that they are new, but none of you care. I mean c'mon, \m/ declaration referenced 2007. The NPO has been staying out of conflict to avoid things like this and as soon as it happens "Ah, screw the NPO, who cares if they're peaceful and trying to stand clear of political problems. KILL THEM NAO"

I don't like the NPO but these past two days really need to be erased from CN history.

[Lewin]

After every major war, there has often been a period of relative peace. The Unjust War, for example, was followed by ‘Pax Pacifica’, which was interrupted only by the occasional BLEU curbstomp. This did not lead to the end of politics, however. In fact, it lead to the War of the Coalition, which I personally think was the best time CN has ever seen. The moralism, the despair, the bad guys who were good at playing bad guys... and of course, the political struggles which happened afterwards and lead directly to Karma, despite the fact that everyone claimed it was the end of CN. After Karma happened loads of people quit, or proclaimed that a multipolar world was boring (in fact, I think it was Delta who proposed some theory where the political scene would lead to perpetual peace.)

So why should this war be any different? Politics will continue, I’m sure of it. CN won’t die on us because of this. I don’t see why anyone would find Pax Pacifica more interesting politically than the peace that will come about after this war. There are other reasons for the decline of people in this planet.

Besides, this war would have happened anyway, and either way whoever won would have been the dominant force in CN. Thus, we would have a dominant group in power regardless of whether we have the war now or later. NPO has... a bit of a track record, when it comes to hegemonies. Personally I would rather have PB as the dominant group in power because they refrain from the use of viceroys and the like (believe you me, it really sucks to be under a viceroy) and also because the OWF is much more free than it used to be. People often mistake ‘group of people in power’ for ‘hegemony’, but this is a misnomer because of the connotations of the word ‘hegemony’, which is associated with the stuff NPO used to do. In this sense, PB is a kind of ‘benevolent hegemony’, or at least moreso than NPO would be.

Onto your second conclusion. I admit there is some truth to what you say, but at the same time I would question whether anything was different in NPO’s day. CBs were invented then just as they are now. For example, the War of the Coalition was not fought because Hyperion violated the standards NPO set. Polaris and her allies could not have avoided that war by keeping to the standards NPO set. Hyperion’s only crime was to unknowingly tech deal with Chickenzilla’s reroll. That’s not something Hyperion could have avoided. Clearly 1V and friends wanted a casus belli and got one. After that, MK lived in constant fear of being attacked, and tried to keep to NPO’s standards, even to the extent that they started to self-censor on their boards for fear of providing NPO CB material. However, even that wasn’t enough to guarantee they wouldn’t be hit.

Thus, we can conclude that a casus belli is rarely, if ever, the reason for a war, and therefore there’s little difference between Doomhouse being honest about the fact that they don’t have a CB (oh and by the way, that’s not a precedent, for example, TOP attacked C&G without a CB) and NPO’s elaborate explanations and manufactured CBs. Either way, you’re getting attacked because you’re out of grace with the current group of people in power.

[Locke]

[quote name='Bakunin's Dream' timestamp='1295936555' post='2599152']
Vladimir gets it right, laziness and ****ty attitudes killed the one thing CN ever had going for it. Without anything that looks like politics the game is basically Halo 3 but with technology from 25 years ago. This game is done and I'm glad I don't give a **** anymore because if I did I'd be really depressed.
[/quote]
Hoooooooooly crap, Vlad got Bakunin to make an appearance.

[acrux]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1295939498' post='2599370']
I disagree RV, I think they actually don't care anymore.

The roof is on fire. We don't need no water.
[/quote]


Well we agree on something, I expect many to clear out after this war.

It's an idle game, what else can happen?

[zzzptm]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1295936710' post='2599171']
The world needs two clear opposing forces to function well...the lack of that has brought this. May not all be done yet, but something drastic is needed to pull out the last minute save.
[/quote]

There are those that honor treaties and there are those that completely disregard them when convenient. Are these our new opposing forces?

[Homura]

I don't hold out for a great hope that a group of large alliances is going to rush in to save Pacifica or Polaris from being attacked.

The fact is, as in every war, the alliances have generally already decided by this point which side they intend to support, and the members support their alliance. The true upheaval occurs after the war, when the memberships and ties realign based on their standards. Consider how many members of NPO, who were previously the source of strength for the alliance, left elsewhere because they did not support the stated causes of war in the Continuum Era. Or how some big alliances started to detach themselves from the Initiative or the Continuum.

War is predictable, peace is not.

[quote name='Zeta Defender' timestamp='1295945642' post='2599679']
To be honest, where does that CB start and end as "we don't like you" can be OOC and IC.

OOC: Hell this was the same justification that Hitler used to kill the Jews and take over the world, because, "he was creating the perfect world." Anyone who believed this will end any better is sadly mistaken.

First They came... - Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists ,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

[b][color="#FF0000"]Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.[/color][/b]
[/quote]
OOC: a Nazi comparison, really? Thread has been Godwin'd, thanks for posting everybody!

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1295936710' post='2599171']
The world needs two clear opposing forces to function well...the lack of that has brought this. May not all be done yet, but something drastic is needed to pull out the last minute save.
[/quote]

This war will certainly give you that.

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1295962465' post='2600004']
There are those that honor treaties and there are [b]those that completely disregard them when convenient. [/b]
[/quote]

You're talking about PB right?

Edited January 25, 2011 by Mr Damsky

[lamuella]

OOC: when picking sides, pick the one with enough confidence in their position not to have to compare their enemies to Hitler.

[Heft]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1295948181' post='2599730']
How rich. I recall seeing the same quote once when your alliance decided to curbstomp another for no reason. Do you think anyone believes that they'd be best off under the NPO's gentle (sarc) dominion?
[/quote]
You certainly did quite well for yourself during that time.

What exactly are you complaining about?

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Katsumi' timestamp='1295964733' post='2600058']
OOC: a Nazi comparison, really? Thread has been Godwin'd, thanks for posting everybody!
[/quote]

Actually - I think that's gotta be the most fitting. Grasping to the 'oh noes nazi' piece is rather narrowminded. Take the saying for what it really says and drop the bias.

[lamuella]

taking the piece for what it's really saying... it's a slippery slope argument framed in emotive language by someone with an axe to grind. Unlike the era of the NPO being on top (when they had a protracted war against the GPA of all people) there isn't any evidence that the people currently on top are going to "come for" people.

[Delta1212]

Names changed for illustrative purposes:

The first conclusion is in what exactly has happened -- the attacks on potential political opposition. While some have tried to make the divine claim to war being 'interesting' or 'exciting', in doing so they fail to see beyond their own noses -- or, in this case, a couple of weeks. This war, if the aggressors emerge victorious, will paradoxically usher in an era where a single entity commands unchallenged and unchallengeable political domination; a situation which can only lead to widespread stagnation, strangling the political lifeblood that sustains our world.

But it is this tied with the second conclusion -- the way the attacks occurred -- that should create real concern within any free-thinking Bobian denizen. The real power of a political hegemony is to set political precedent. Unfortunately the precedent here is to tear down all rule of law and security for non-hegemonic alliances. Whereas in previous eras an alliance could consider itself relatively safe from attack so long as it did not commit a militarily aggressive act, even if it was in political disagreement with the hegemonic power, the precedent being set today means that anyone saying anything deemed to be slightly out of line, or not even doing that, could be destroyed on a whim. Gone would be the days of delicate political manoeuvre and intrigue, entering would be the tedious grind of apolitical absolutism. No longer could you argue a justification for war, or organise a counter-weight to the powerful, for everything outside of the smallest of political cliques would be deemed sport for the entitled few, and no justification would care enough to go beyond 'because we can'.

So this is not a rejuvenation of Planet Bob, far from it: if the New Pacific Order et al emerge victorious then it is Bob's death rattle. The politics that drew nations here in the tens of thousands would be dead, the frequent challenges to power would cease to be, and what little remained would wither and die. It is no longer an intriguing fight for the power of one alliance over another as we have seen in previous great wars, but rather it is a fight for the survival of us all. In this way the New Pacific et al are fighting not only for the death of the Global Alliance and Treaty Organization, but for the deaths of themselves and every other alliance regardless of political affiliation.

Consequently this war cannot be seen as being one alliance against another, but rather it must be seen as a war between those who want to survive, and those who do not: those who want Planet Bob to go on for years to come, and those who want it to end. If you think that you can avoid this war or its consequences, you are wrong. If you aren't ready to stand up and fight for survival then you are already dead.


And now the $64,000 question: What 2007 military conflict does this sound like it was taken from?

Edited January 25, 2011 by Delta1212

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1295970633' post='2600190']
And now the $64,000 question: What 2007 military conflict does this sound like it was taken from?
[/quote]

Doesn't matter. It was 2007 for goodness sakes. Four years ago. I'd rather our politics be based on something far more recent than that.

[Steve Buscemi]

The real problem is that the NPO has never genuinely showed any remorse for all it's actions and for the years of stagnation it caused. Maybe if you showed a bit of responsibility and humility people would actually think you've turned a new leaf. But as it stands now, I think you are just waiting to rise to power again to get revenge and bring back your old ways. That's why people outside of your close allies don't trust you. So instead of posting the usual verbose and extremely assumptive essay's, maybe you should actually do something to create more trust. Get over your pride and maybe you won't fall.