A Statement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Voytek]

[quote name='CRex of Gulo Gulo' timestamp='1289311000' post='2507957']
So....

Your team goes to the NSO with a deal you freely admit is unfair. Talks don't go very well and the NSO end up having the deal shoved down it's throat. Talks leave the NSO feeling MK was perhaps somewhat threatening. You guys are known for liking war, being good at war and being politically well connected so it makes sense they'd worry about your military capabilities.

Thus NSO goes to the only weapon they have, popular opinion and gives you a bit of a black eye. Your reaction is to admit that yes your team made a mistake, but still demand punitive reps because the NSO dared to say mean things about you on the forum. This is awesome, we've moved from overpriced reps demands based on trade circle mistakes to speech restrictions. I guess thought crime is next.
[/quote]
It's called goodwill CRex. Whatever desire we might have had to come to a reasonable settlement with them ended the moment they decided to get nasty. I'm sure there's a metaphor to be made here that would illustrate the situation but I can't be bothered coming up with one

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1289311203' post='2507962']
How many times did MK and its friends make public revelations on unfair treatment? Why is it suddenly so wrong to do it now?
[/quote]
There's nothing wrong with doing it as long as you don't care about the reaction you might get from the other person.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Voytek

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289310656' post='2507948']
RV none of that adds up sorry man

a) you didn't try to talk us down at all, in fact I think the point at which you decided you'd bring this here can be pinpointed at roughly halfway through where you started to make Epiphanus and Yev go through everything in exact detail (playing to the camera as it were)
b) if you really thought we'd attack if you didn't pay up you wouldn't have brought it here after agreeing - if we were really that twitchy we would be rolling tanks right now (in which case you would have been free to go public anyway)
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]A.) You're right. I realized that backroom strong-arming had to be brought to the public attention halfway through the logs. I had considered leaving out my levying my personal thoughts to Yev and Pippy, but there were a few relevant bits in there and when I promise full unedited logs that is what I provide.
B.) Had we gotten rolled for that we'd have gotten rolled. But such backroom behavior does not deserve to go unnoticed. I posted the logs not out of any desire for a PR campaign or public sympathy points, but because I genuinely believe that rubbish like what occurred last night should not be allowed to remain hidden in backrooms.[/color]

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289311276' post='2507963']
It's called goodwill CRex. Whatever desire we might have had to come to a reasonable settlement with them ended the moment they decided to get nasty. I'm sure there's a metaphor to be made here that would illustrate the situation but I can't be bothered coming up with one


There's nothing wrong with doing it as long as you don't care about the reaction you might get from the other person.
[/quote]
Except that you are wrong.

MK spoke with two members of government and were told that the nation was not a member and that NSO would not be paying their demands. They then went to RV after refusing to negotiate and demanded the same thing without options. That isn't a negotiation by any definition. RV had already read the transcript of the previous conversation when entering the logged talks so he was aware of the MK position from the start.

Plus, thanks for noticing that I never bother with the subtle crap. Too little straight talk here these days for my tastes.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289311276' post='2507963']
There's nothing wrong with doing it as long as you don't care about the reaction you might get from the other person.
[/quote]
It's not hard to see what your reaction would be. You !@#$%* and moan, but at the end of the day, you won't do !@#$ about it because you would come out looking even worse than you already do.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289311289' post='2507964'][color="#0000FF"]A.) You're right. I realized that backroom strong-arming had to be brought to the public attention halfway through the logs. I had considered leaving out my levying my personal thoughts to Yev and Pippy, but there were a few relevant bits in there and when I promise full unedited logs that is what I provide.[/color][/quote]
Ironically you probably would have come off looking better if you had actually tried to secure a better outcome for your alliance rather than stringing Pip and Yev along to juice things up for the peanut gallery.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289311289' post='2507964'][color="#0000FF"]B.) Had we gotten rolled for that we'd have gotten rolled. But such backroom behavior does not deserve to go unnoticed. I posted the logs not out of any desire for a PR campaign or public sympathy points, but because I genuinely believe that rubbish like what occurred last night should not be allowed to remain hidden in backrooms.[/color][/quote]
Sorry but the second you stopped talking with them in good faith and started trying to make the logs juicier you basically lost any plausible deniability you might have had.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289311528' post='2507965']MK spoke with two members of government and were told that the nation was not a member and that NSO would not be paying their demands. They then went to RV after refusing to negotiate and demanded the same thing without options. That isn't a negotiation by any definition. RV had already read the transcript of the previous conversation when entering the logged talks so he was aware of the MK position from the start.[/quote]
He could still have tried to talk them down or at least play for time (even a day would have been enough for the misunderstanding on our end to be sorted out and our figure revised). Anything other than grandstanding for the future logdump basically.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289311528' post='2507965']Plus, thanks for noticing that I never bother with the subtle crap. Too little straight talk here these days for my tastes.[/quote]
You forget the circumstances in which you stepped down as Emperor of NSO so quickly? I'm surprised.

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1289311727' post='2507971']It's not hard to see what your reaction would be. You !@#$%* and moan, but at the end of the day, you won't do !@#$ about it because you would come out looking even worse than you already do.[/quote]
This... has precisely nothing to do with what I said.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Voytek

[CRexx]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289311276' post='2507963']
It's called goodwill CRex. Whatever desire we might have had to come to a reasonable settlement with them ended the moment they decided to get nasty. I'm sure there's a metaphor to be made here that would illustrate the situation but I can't be bothered coming up with one
[/quote]

It comes off as insecurity and the inability to take the high road to me at least. I'd simply say "Well my team did kind of treat them unfairly, so it's reasonable human nature they'd lash out a little. I won't hold that against them considering my team committed the first foul. Let's just move forward." Oh well you got your pint of blood and the Sith got their PR.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289311772' post='2507973']
Ironically you probably would have come off looking better if you had actually tried to secure a better outcome for your alliance rather than stringing Pip and Yev along to juice things up for the peanut gallery.

Sorry but the second you stopped talking with them in good faith and started trying to make the logs juicier you basically lost any plausible deniability you might have had.
[/quote]
Sorry, but there were never any good faith talks between RV and MK. The attempt at good faith from NSO came earlier when members of government attempted to negotiate and were told no. When RV entered the posted talks it was already established that MK would accept no negotiation.

[quigon jinn]

This is really, really, ironic.

[Tromp]

[quote name='ArneS' timestamp='1289310815' post='2507955']
Although I think the reps initially asked by MK were too high and could have been handled better, the way NSO handled this afterwards warrants MK's response. NSO accepted to pay the reps, and didn't even try to negotiate them down, apparently just to use it as a PR tool against MK, and even canceled the offered reps (which they had agreed to pay!) when they thought they had enough support to do that, instead of just trying to solve in a way any other alliance would have done.
[/quote]
Maybe NSO just likes to be crusified, one way or another.
They're no saints though.

As for MK, well, clearly you are (or were) at the height of your power. It can only go worse from now on, so I'm sure it'll be interesting times again soon. Thanks for that!

[Karolina]

[quote name='CRex of Gulo Gulo' timestamp='1289311893' post='2507975']
It comes off as insecurity and the inability to take the high road to me at least. I'd simply say "Well my team did kind of treat them unfairly, so it's reasonable human nature they'd lash out a little. I won't hold that against them considering my team committed the first foul. Let's just move forward."
[/quote]
Logic has no place in this world.

[Alaric]

take it easy - all i read was the OP, but...

a. are alliances now responsible for failed trade circles?
b. what terms/conditions were in place when the 'nation in question' accepted the harbor-money and entered into the trade circle to begin with?

[Voytek]

[quote name='CRex of Gulo Gulo' timestamp='1289311893' post='2507975']
It comes off as insecurity and the inability to take the high road to me at least. I'd simply say "Well my team did kind of treat them unfairly, so it's reasonable human nature they'd lash out a little. I won't hold that against them considering my team committed the first foul. Let's just move forward." Oh well you got your pint of blood and the Sith got their PR.
[/quote]
If RV hadn't gone public we would have sorted this thing out by now even if the negotiations had taken place in exactly the same way. The error was discovered only a short while after that thread got made.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289311934' post='2507976']Sorry, but there were never any good faith talks between RV and MK. The attempt at good faith from NSO came earlier when members of government attempted to negotiate and were told no. When RV entered the posted talks it was already established that MK would accept no negotiation.[/quote]
And yet RV was the one who went public and tried to score political points, not those others. Seriously NSO could have done just about anything other than what it did and it would have come out of this smelling a lot rosier. MK could have as well, of course - there really are no good guys in this one IMO.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Alaric' timestamp='1289312111' post='2507980']
take it easy - all i read was the OP, but...

a. are alliances now responsible for failed trade circles?
b. what terms/conditions were in place when the 'nation in question' accepted the harbor-money and entered into the trade circle to begin with?
[/quote]

You are going to have to invest a touch more time into the thread if you want the complete answer to your questions, the first one I assume is rhetorical as no one here has the power to make anyone responsible for anything. Nations and alliances make choices to be responsible when the alternative is less attractive.

ive been in a trade circle with an Mker for more then 500 days, he is an extremely pleasant guy and we have lost 2 people in that time he never once held me responsible for it. So generalizations wont really work here. Your questions require more reading to understand the situation you are entering into.

[C Mos]

This announcement really takes me back...

[AirMe]

Son, I am disappoint.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289313541' post='2507992']
Son, I am disappoint.
[/quote]
Back in our day, this !@#$ wouldn't have gone down.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289312371' post='2507981']
If RV hadn't gone public we would have sorted this thing out by now even if the negotiations had taken place in exactly the same way. The error was discovered only a short while after that thread got made.

And yet RV was the one who went public and tried to score political points, not those others. Seriously NSO could have done just about anything other than what it did and it would have come out of this smelling a lot rosier. MK could have as well, of course - there really are no good guys in this one IMO.
[/quote]

You said yourself the error was only discovered after the thread got made on here, so if it wasn't, maybe it wouldn't have been discovered and then, just maybe, it wouldn't have been an error to extort cash & tech from NSO. It only becomes an error when your ridiculous demands are brought in front of everyone and it's pointed out by a large number of alliances just how ridiculous they are.

I think you'll find that NSO have come out of this smelling quite rosey as it is. I mean, sure they have to pay a bit of cash and tech. Something that prior to that thread being started, they were going to have to pay anyway, regardless of the fact that you lot are now claiming that if RV never started that thread, you'd have reduced the amount. From the end of the negotations (if you can call them that) and now, the only thing that has changed is some of the public's perception of MK.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1289313771' post='2507994']
Back in our day, this !@#$ wouldn't have gone down.
[/quote]

No it wouldn't have. Either we would have taken the 3 mil back or would have rolled NSO within 20 minutes of the initial negotiation.

[LJ Scott]

Looks like the new Hegemony is the same as the old Hegemony

[Voytek]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1289313900' post='2507995']You said yourself the error was only discovered after the thread got made on here, so if it wasn't, maybe it wouldn't have been discovered and then, just maybe, it wouldn't have been an error to extort cash & tech from NSO. It only becomes an error when your ridiculous demands are brought in front of everyone and it's pointed out by a large number of alliances just how ridiculous they are.[/quote]
I can tell you that yes it would have been discovered and while I can't say for certain that we would have come clean with NSO on it we would have been a whoooole lot more likely to do so without RV's antagonism pissing us off.

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1289313900' post='2507995']I think you'll find that NSO have come out of this smelling quite rosey as it is. I mean, sure they have to pay a bit of cash and tech. Something that prior to that thread being started, they were going to have to pay anyway, regardless of the fact that you lot are now claiming that if RV never started that thread, you'd have reduced the amount. From the end of the negotations (if you can call them that) and now, the only thing that has changed is some of the public's perception of MK.[/quote]
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289313995' post='2507997']
No it wouldn't have. Either we would have taken the 3 mil back or would have rolled NSO within 20 minutes of the initial negotiation.
[/quote]
All depending on the mood of the princess at the time.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289310706' post='2507950']
[color="#0000FF"]I think we had this conversation in the other thread, and I informed you that there was no chance of that happening. If anything said by myself that was not an answer MK wanted to hear was either dismissed as "irrelevant" or "lies" how do you think I'd have any shot at a fair negotiation. In fact, having to negotiate over a lost trade in the first place is completely ridiculous. We would have paid for the lost harbor money, the three million for that, but your inability and laziness to look for a temporary trade should not have ever fallen on us.[/color]
[/quote]

But you didn't even try, surely you could have at least tried. It wou.d have done no harm, unlike your ridiculous attempt at a smear.

Just to clarify, I am no longer in MK.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289312371' post='2507981']
And yet RV was the one who went public and tried to score political points, not those others. Seriously NSO could have done just about anything other than what it did and it would have come out of this smelling a lot rosier. MK could have as well, of course - there really are no good guys in this one IMO.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I've had a reputation as a straight shooter for nearly four years now. I don't lie about my motives, so you can more or less take anything I say at face value, and when I say I wasn't interested in scoring political points you better believe it. You may or may not know that I did have a hand in the Vox Populi movement. I wasn't interested in political points. I simply believed it was the right thing to do. I was a silly idealist back then, and still am today, although there seems to be a lot less room for those in this day and age, and having decency and conviction of character seems no longer to be an appreciated trait. But I'm still me. The same foolish believer I've always been.

I posted those logs because those are among some of the ugliest and most despicable acts, by anyone's standards, to have ever had the privilege of sitting in the dark. I fought against that rubbish, and I paid a hefty price for daring to take a stand when very few others would ever consider doing so. Karma wasn't everything I hoped for, no, and I admit freely that I've been heavily critical of you all for the last year or so. But never in my wildest fantasies did I believe that this kind of backroom strong arming, and for reasons so frivolous and petty as we just saw, was still going on. And I have a feeling that was true for many people.

Seeing is believing, and when such underhanded tactics are going on people need to know. You don't like being exposed, and by no means should you enjoy it, but it changes nothing. Just because a channel happens to be private does give you nor anyone else the right to behave as you did, and when you abuse private channels to take advantage of other people, you deserve to be exposed for what you are.[/color]

[AirMe]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1289314146' post='2508000']
All depending on the mood of the princess at the time.
[/quote]

Depending on whether I or Trace were handling the negotiations.

[The Big Bad]

Not the response I was expecting. It seems to justify everything RV did. Seems to but, perhaps it does not.

No doubt the way this was handled by MK by the people involved was directy impacted by it being NSO. This in turn created the large demands and the old NPO style implied threat diplomacy. RV saw this for what it was and decided to go public with it, not in the best interest of solving it but, in the interest of giving MK a black eye.

I understand RV has put MK in a bad spot. And no doubt on purpose. He could have moved up the chain at MK and talked things out without the public log dump. I have no doubt things would have been resolved in a much more reasonable manner. He instead took the chance to make MK look bad with a public log dump. I know this, MK knows this and RV (although I sure he will deny it) also knows this. So of course MK is not happy.

The log dump was a tool to lock MK into only following a few options. MK has to either back down from public pressure giving the Sith a PR win or push the issue and let NSO decide what happens. If they pay they have a effective PR tool to use for whatever purpose they choose. If they do not pay and MK attacks them then they have an even more effective PR tool to use.

That is the way it seems anyway. However Archon is wise and perhaps he has something completely different up his sleave. We will have to wait and see. I wish both parties the best of luck in resolving this. And if I can be of any service in helping to resolve this please come see me.

Edited November 9, 2010 by The Big Bad