Pandora's Box

[Denial]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1286695120' post='2480237']
Did he say disband? I thought he just said "Destroy", with the context referring to the outcome of a military engagement.

Or are you saying that if GOONS is ever in a losing war, it will very likely disband then and there?
[/quote]

Okay, firstly, if you want to play semantics, you might want to learn the meaning of the word you are debating.

Destroy:


1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. to defeat completely.

Notice how all of them point towards pursuing disbandment?

Anyway, the discussion of semantics is irrelevant, as RV makes his intentions even more clear a number of other times:

<%Rebel_Virginia> As much as we agree GOONS needs to go, we need to win this thing.

<@HeroofTime55> We have to kill GOONS
<%Rebel_Virginia> We agree.

<%Rebel_Virginia> GOONS must die.


So, are you going to try and argue "kill" and "die" now means "hug lovingly"?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1286695548' post='2480244']
You must think anyone in favor of executing murderers are hypocrites as well or anyone willing to use a punishment on only someone who has done that same punishing action onto others undeserved. Have you heard the phrase "an eye for an eye" before and understood the principle behind the saying? I think the same could apply here and in general when dealing with alliances who try forcing excessive reps onto others.
[/quote]

An Eye for an Eye leaves the whole world blind.

[Denial]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1286695548' post='2480244']
[b]You must think anyone in favor of executing murderers are hypocrites as well or anyone willing to use a punishment on only someone who has done that same punishing action onto others undeserved[/b]. Have you heard the phrase "an eye for an eye" before and understood the principle behind the saying? I think the same could apply here and in general when dealing with alliances who try forcing excessive reps onto others.
[/quote]
Yes I do.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1286684337' post='2480156']
I would point you towards pre-blue text and loyal Pacifican Rebel Virginia. Also, after the recent revelation that you have a clear goal of disbanding GOONS, I could point you towards current era Rebel Virginia as being disingenuous when bleating about morals.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I've made it quite clear that I do not seek to disband GOONS. I merely wish for them to reform their ways, and be removed from a position of power. Also, that was well over three years ago, and I left due to the fact I did not like the way they did things. I saw the actions as wrong then, and I see them as wrong now. But if you must reach for straws Mr. Denial, please be my guest.[/color]

Edited October 10, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Margrave]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1286696172' post='2480250']
Yes I do.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
[/quote]


Moralist.



"Kill or Be Killed."

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1286696120' post='2480248']
An Eye for an Eye leaves the whole world blind.
[/quote]
I think GOONS have made it pretty clear they feel perfectly justified in dealing with peace how they do and the reps they ask, which leaves me the impression they'll keep trying to blind others with no remorse if others hesitate to poke their eyes out when given the chance or at least teach them a painful lesson if they are allowed to continue.

[iamthey]

I just love when people substitute substantive arguments with blatant one line assertions, or quotations based in personality driven authority. Bonus points for the first person to take us full circle with "no u".

Edited October 10, 2010 by iamthey

[Denial]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286696419' post='2480252']
[color="#0000FF"]I've made it quite clear that I do not seek to disband GOONS. I merely wish for them to reform their ways, and be removed from a position of power. Also, that was well over three years ago, and I left due to the fact I did not like the way they did things. I saw the actions as wrong then, and I see them as wrong now. But if you must reach for straws Mr. Denial, please be my guest.[/color]
[/quote]
That's not what you said amongst the other anti-GOONS conspirators. Though, I must acknowledge you did slightly raise the average IQ level up from 40 when you entered that room.

[quote name='Margrave' timestamp='1286696621' post='2480255']
Moralist.



"Kill or Be Killed."
[/quote]
Sorry, I am a proud invisible hegemonist.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1286695996' post='2480247']
Okay, firstly, if you want to play semantics, you might want to learn the meaning of the word you are debating.

Destroy:


[b]1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.[/b]
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
[b]4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.[/b]
[b]5. to defeat completely.[/b]

Notice how all of them point towards pursuing disbandment?

Anyway, the discussion of semantics is irrelevant, as RV makes his intentions even more clear a number of other times:

<%Rebel_Virginia> As much as we agree GOONS needs to go, we need to win this thing.

<@HeroofTime55> We have to kill GOONS
<%Rebel_Virginia> We agree.

<%Rebel_Virginia> GOONS must die.


So, are you going to try and argue "kill" and "die" now means "hug lovingly"?
[/quote]

First- you talk about how someone must learn the definition of a word, then show you have no clue what the definition means. not all of those definitions means "disband". in fact, only 2 categorically say anything that could be taken as disband. the others all state "cripple". ya know, kinda like how MK wanted to "cripple" NPO. unless of course you are stating that MK wanted to forcefully disband NPO in which case, MK are horrible, horrible hypocrites and liars.

second- you take what is obviously a heated speech and stretch it to the point where one or two sentences now take on the entire context of the rest of the post (not sure what that is) or the entire lifespan of a person. everyone gets heated and to use RV agreeing with HoT over "killing" GOONS and RV stating GOONS must die, is simply disingenuous. that would be like me finding a sentence or two of you stating an alliance should die and then stating how you have always wanted to disband every alliance you ever fought.

third- if RV makes his intentions more clear other times, why are you using this one then? this one seems like RV got a bit heated and agreed with someone else's intentions about GOONS needing to die. how about one where RV brought it up first? i have always loved how there is always stronger evidence and people bring out the weak !@#$ first. makes absolutely no sense. this is not an essay you are writing. you don't have to build up your evidence. just give us the strongest piece already.

[Denial]

So, um, what was the point of that tirade, exactly?

1. When talking about an alliance, the terms "reduce to useless fragments", "injure beyond repair or renewal", "ruin", "render ineffective or useless", "invalidate", "defeat completely" and so on point towards forcing disbandment to me. To use one example, to render an alliance ineffective or useless would essentially mean to push it to the point where it could not protect its own members or live up to the aims in its charter. This would lead to disbandment, as we have seen in the past. If the aforementioned terms are not applicable to alliance disbandment, I would hate to see the words you would use to relate to disbandment!

2. What the hell are you even talking about here? Seriously, you're all over the place.

3. I'll be sure to rearrange my post according to your standards next time!

Edited October 10, 2010 by Denial

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286488660' post='2478192']
It was, in his view, an unnecessary war, started over a trivial matter that could be resolved diplomatically (which it was.) Furthermore, Os didn’t want to see a war between PB and everyone else just [b]yet[/b].
[/quote]

Interesting choice of words.

[leprecon]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1286718418' post='2480370']
Interesting choice of words.
[/quote]


You have uncovered a secret conspiracy by highlighting one word. Congratulations!

[Tyranus]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1286717395' post='2480363']
second- you take what is obviously a heated speech and stretch it to the point where one or two sentences now take on the entire context of the rest of the post [b](not sure what that is)[/b]
[/quote]

LOL WUT.

(Okay, so that entire paragraph makes no sense, but it doesn't matter since that one bit devalues the paragraph early.)

Edited October 10, 2010 by Rhobar II

[Goldie]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1286717395' post='2480363']
First- you talk about how someone must learn the definition of a word, then show you have no clue what the definition means. not all of those definitions means "disband". in fact, only 2 categorically say anything that could be taken as disband. the others all state "cripple". ya know, kinda like how MK wanted to "cripple" NPO. unless of course you are stating that MK wanted to forcefully disband NPO in which case, MK are horrible, horrible hypocrites and liars.

second- you take what is obviously a heated speech and stretch it to the point where one or two sentences now take on the entire context of the rest of the post (not sure what that is) or the entire lifespan of a person. everyone gets heated and to use RV agreeing with HoT over "killing" GOONS and RV stating GOONS must die, is simply disingenuous. that would be like me finding a sentence or two of you stating an alliance should die and then stating how you have always wanted to disband every alliance you ever fought.

third- if RV makes his intentions more clear other times, why are you using this one then? this one seems like RV got a bit heated and agreed with someone else's intentions about GOONS needing to die. how about one where RV brought it up first? i have always loved how there is always stronger evidence and people bring out the weak !@#$ first. makes absolutely no sense. this is not an essay you are writing. you don't have to build up your evidence. just give us the strongest piece already.
[/quote]

OWF: Place where you go to posture. Often includes putting on a facade so people learn to like/trust who you are and what you stand for.

Back-channels: Place where posturing has no place, you are liked and trusted for your skill with strategy and your honesty, not for what you say on the OWF.

There are clearly two faces of RV, two faces of Schattenman. As Sardonic's This Week in Schattenman details, it is pretty easy to see that these people who rail against 'hegemony', 'forced disbandment', 'outrageous reps', 'fabricated cb's', and preach their 'morals' are in fact worse than those who they accuse of those things.

GOONS doesn't plot in back channels to manufacture cb's against other alliances, they just play the game their way and the only trouble that finds them are when people decide they don't want them to raid anymore so they think attacking them will stop them, or even better, that OWF posts will. It is stuff like those logs that fall into their laps that mean GOONS will never really have to stretch to find a CB because people hand them out like candy.

GOONS doesn't force established alliances to disband. If you get raided by GOONS and want off, you don't have to pay a cent to ensure you never get raided by them again.

Schatt's close relationship with NPO must have made him hegemonic by osmosis, I'm just glad the world can laugh when he tries to preach his morals on the rest of the world, calls other people hegemonic, or rails against people who simply want to have some fun in the game, because we all now know that it's just his facade, and that behind everything lies a regular Moo-Cows. I can imagine the logs of NPO's ally channels from pre-Karma looking a whole lot like the logs from WCE. "C&G will fight with us through their looser than loose ties to us" has become the new "Fark will fight with Q".

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1286720782' post='2480389']
OWF: Place where you go to posture. Often includes putting on a facade so people learn to like/trust who you are and what you stand for.

Back-channels: Place where posturing has no place, you are liked and trusted for your skill with strategy and your honesty, not for what you say on the OWF.

There are clearly two faces of RV, two faces of Schattenman. As Sardonic's This Week in Schattenman details, it is pretty easy to see that these people who rail against 'hegemony', 'forced disbandment', 'outrageous reps', 'fabricated cb's', and preach their 'morals' are in fact worse than those who they accuse of those things.

GOONS doesn't plot in back channels to manufacture cb's against other alliances, they just play the game their way and the only trouble that finds them are when people decide they don't want them to raid anymore so they think attacking them will stop them, or even better, that OWF posts will. It is stuff like those logs that fall into their laps that mean GOONS will never really have to stretch to find a CB because people hand them out like candy.

GOONS doesn't force established alliances to disband. If you get raided by GOONS and want off, you don't have to pay a cent to ensure you never get raided by them again.

Schatt's close relationship with NPO must have made him hegemonic by osmosis, I'm just glad the world can laugh when he tries to preach his morals on the rest of the world, calls other people hegemonic, or rails against people who simply want to have some fun in the game, because we all now know that it's just his facade, and that behind everything lies a regular Moo-Cows. I can imagine the logs of NPO's ally channels from pre-Karma looking a whole lot like the logs from WCE. "C&G will fight with us through their looser than loose ties to us" has become the new "Fark will fight with Q".
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You fellows are quite disingenuous. You should know by now that I'm not picky about word choice. "Kill," "roll," "die," etc. are all for me synonyms for attacking, and removing from power. Disbanding GOONS never crossed my mind, and had it done so I'd have said it explicitly. As for reps, I've always been against those regardless of who has been defeated. I find those to simply be a weak move.

As for me plotting to manufacture a CB, let me remind you that I was not active in the talks about creating a microalliance to bait GOONS with. My rolle was limited to explaining why attacking GOONS without a CB would be folly.

But honestly, I am not surprised to see any of these desperate measures coming from your little brain trust. You're seeking to discredit the one credible threat to your power. Well, let me tell you. Your little lies and delusions may be believes amongst yourselves, but you ain't fooling the rest of the world. And that's who matters.

Also, do you mean to tell me that GOONS has never been in a back channel? That VE hasn't? That none of these alliances have never one plotted or planned? You must be deluded, because quite frankly any alliance worth a bit or two has been there and done that. GOONS included. The only difference between your meetings and ours is that yours haven't been leaked yet. Kudos to you on that, but let me assure you the day that it does happen I'll be the first to remind you of how you said "but we would never."

As for me being worse that GOONS, the day I start extorting individuals and alliances, advocating perpetual war, undo humiliation of foes, and "survival of the fittest" thought to justify those actions is the day you might have a leg to stand on. But that's simply not the case. Am I stupid? No. Do I plan moves in secret? Of course. Why wouldn't I? To do everything publicly is asking for failure. I've done nothing contradictory to my views, and to even suggest that I'd do anything I'm clearly against proves you have no idea who I am. Reparations, forced disbandment, and extensive war I will never advocate, and should my cohorts have decided that it what GOONS deserved they would have found an enemy in me.

And did you just use "you have a relationship with NPO" to try and prove your asinine assumptions? Why should people take any of the dribble you say seriously with that kind of disregard for logic?[/color]

Edited October 10, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286729947' post='2480434']
[color="#0000FF"] You're seeking to discredit the one credible threat to your power. Well, let me tell you. Your little lies and delusions may be believes amongst yourselves, but you ain't fooling the rest of the world. And that's who matters.[/color]
[/quote]

Listen to him. He's telling you the truth. Only a few ppl are believe that RV or anyone else in that room wanted to disband GOONS.

Edited October 10, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[Tyranus]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286729947' post='2480434']You're seeking to discredit the one credible threat to your power.
[/quote]

Relax, I'm not seeking to discredit you. You have already discredited yourself.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1286730048' post='2480437']
Listen to him. He's telling you the truth. Only a few ppl are believe that RV or anyone else in that room wanted to disband GOONS.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Believe it or not, but I have said in the past that GOONS is one of the few alliances that truly is needed in this world, in that only it does something to make the world interesting. I merely do not believe that they should have free reign. That would be a problem, however, reducing them to minor power status would be satisfactory.[/color]

[Goldie]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286729947' post='2480434']
[color="#0000FF"]You fellows are quite disingenuous. You should know by now that I'm not picky about word choice. "Kill," "roll," "die," etc. are all for me synonyms for attacking, and removing from power. Disbanding GOONS never crossed my mind, and had it done so I'd have said it explicitly. As for reps, I've always been against those regardless of who has been defeated. I find those to simply be a weak move.

As for me plotting to manufacture a CB, let me remind you that I was not active in the talks about creating a microalliance to bait GOONS with. My rolle was limited to explaining why attacking GOONS without a CB would be folly.

But honestly, I am not surprised to see any of these desperate measures coming from your little brain trust. You're seeking to discredit the one credible threat to your power. Well, let me tell you. Your little lies and delusions may be believes amongst yourselves, but you ain't fooling the rest of the world. And that's who matters.

Also, do you mean to tell me that GOONS has never been in a back channel? That VE hasn't? That none of these alliances have never one plotted or planned? You must be deluded, because quite frankly any alliance worth a bit or two has been there and done that. GOONS included. The only difference between your meetings and ours is that yours haven't been leaked yet. Kudos to you on that, but let me assure you the day that it does happen I'll be the first to remind you of how you said "but we would never."

As for me being worse that GOONS, the day I start extorting individuals and alliances, advocating perpetual war, undo humiliation of foes, and "survival of the fittest" thought to justify those actions is the day you might have a leg to stand on. But that's simply not the case. Am I stupid? No. Do I plan moves in secret? Of course. Why wouldn't I? To do everything publicly is asking for failure. I've done nothing contradictory to my views, and to even suggest that I'd do anything I'm clearly against proves you have no idea who I am. Reparations, forced disbandment, and extensive war I will never advocate, and should my cohorts have decided that it what GOONS deserved they would have found an enemy in me.

And did you just use "you have a relationship with NPO" to try and prove your asinine assumptions? Why should people take any of the dribble you say seriously with that kind of disregard for logic?[/color]
[/quote]

Of course we use back channels. We just don't use them to manufacture CB's against other alliances. Believe me, if that was our motive, you'd have seen a lot more wars because unlike your coalition, we can be pretty confident in our strength and that if we are discussing a CB it probably has enough rational thought behind it to be legitimate.

The majority of my post was in reference to Schattenman, I just used your name in the one line to show that you are two-faced on this, in that you spend your OWF experience railing against the very things you were a part of in those talks. Your 'cohorts' were advocating for those exact things. You may not have wanted to forced disband GOONS, and I can't prove your intent, but some of your comrades did. Your comrades wanted heavy reparations, but you were not an enemy in the channel to them. And no, I know nothing of your relationship to NPO, but I do know that Schatt and NPO are close through their joint ventures through Red Dawn, so I did comment on that.

The point those logs make is that your coalition has very little different than those you hate. The main differences aren't 'morals', or 'hegemonic', they are that those you hate are much smarter at navigating inter-alliance politics and are much better at war than your grouping is, and that two major revelations have been brought up by this: one is that ODN is a tremendous ally to save an alliance like UPN and all of its friends from destruction, and two that Schattenman's OWF persona is a total ruse, and that in reality he is as hegemonic and 'immoral' as those he rails against. The world now can see him for what he is.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286729947' post='2480434']
[color="#0000FF"] Well, let me tell you. Your little lies and delusions may be believes amongst yourselves, but you ain't fooling the rest of the world. And that's who matters.
[/color]
[/quote]
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about your coalition.

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]I had no desire to manufacture a CB. I quite clearly stated that GOONS has done more than a few things to warrant being rolled. I won't bother listing them here, because quite frankly it all comes to down a lack of human decency on their part.

Now, want to tell me how suggesting we wait until GOONS messes up to the point where those not involved would actually have the motivation to become involved? That isn't manufacturing a CB. It is waiting on GOONS to be GOONS to the wrong person. As much as I would hate to do that, and as sneaky as it does sound, it is unfortunately necessary because attacking without what can be seen as a "valid" CB would only strengthen GOONS position, and allow them to get off with more and greater crimes against the world. That simply could not be allowed to be.

As for heavy reparations and disbandment, those were not once brought up in the talks. It is neigh impossible for me to protest such things when they are not even being discussed. In fact, the only thing discussed while I was in the channel was the validity of the CB that UPN had, and as you know I wasn't entirely sure it would hold water. But I won't let logic deny you your fantasies.[/color]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1286731216' post='2480450']
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about your coalition.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I agree. The UPN CB was not going to convince the rest of the world, and in all likelihood could have made it more sympathetic to GOONS in much the same way as Methrage's misguided crusade has been beneficial to GOONS (outside the steady stream of 90 mil reps that is). Another point which I stated in the channel.[/color]

Edited October 10, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Alexander The Second]

Not sure we so much had a CB compared to a situation were neither side was gunna budge, with the upn being stuck on the side that either defends new members by attacking there attackers, or our aid to them would eventually get them to attack our other nations also escalating the situation.

ODN are great allies, I wouldn't sell them short in any situation. While we did not want to pay the reps or have someone pay them for us, ODN made there move how they viewed it best for all of our allies involved. No one can fault ODN for anything involving there choice to pay off what goons wanted rather then see a lot of there treaties go to war, and them be stuck in a situation to choose sides between friends.



While I don't like GooNs style of raiding, or treating micro-alliances that fight back like rogues, or there EoG practices, I respect that they never backed down from what they wanted from the situation... I hope at least in that respect it is mutual.


best of luck guys, cant wait and see what PB does to this world.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286731544' post='2480453']
[color="#0000FF"]I had no desire to manufacture a CB. I quite clearly stated that GOONS has done more than a few things to warrant being rolled. I won't bother listing them here, because quite frankly it all comes to down a lack of human decency on their part.

Now, want to tell me how suggesting we wait until GOONS messes up to the point where those not involved would actually have the motivation to become involved? That isn't manufacturing a CB. It is waiting on GOONS to be GOONS to the wrong person. As much as I would hate to do that, and as sneaky as it does sound, it is unfortunately necessary because attacking without what can be seen as a "valid" CB would only strengthen GOONS position, and allow them to get off with more and greater crimes against the world. That simply could not be allowed to be.

As for heavy reparations and disbandment, those were not once brought up in the talks. It is neigh impossible for me to protest such things when they are not even being discussed. In fact, the only thing discussed while I was in the channel was the validity of the CB that UPN had, and as you know I wasn't entirely sure it would hold water. But I won't let logic deny you your fantasies.[/color]


[color="#0000FF"]I agree. The UPN CB was not going to convince the rest of the world, and in all likelihood could have made it more sympathetic to GOONS in much the same way as Methrage's misguided crusade has been beneficial to GOONS (outside the steady stream of 90 mil reps that is). Another point which I stated in the channel.[/color]
[/quote]

I believe he was referring to the vast majority of others in the room that were actively seeking to manufacture a CB, not you personally. To be honest, you and a few others looked at the situation reasonably, but the fact of the matter is out of about 20+ alliance leaders, there were only around 3 who weren't on board for the whole snake in the grass thing.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Tautology]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286731544' post='2480453']
[color="#0000FF"]... I quite clearly stated that GOONS has done more than a few things to warrant being rolled. I won't bother listing them here, because quite frankly it all comes to down a lack of human decency on their part.
...[/color][/quote]
This world will be a much more interesting place if we all use our opinions of what constitutes a lack of human decency as justification for rolling an alliance.

[Earogema]

I don't see why you're all still talking about us manufacturing a CB when we

1. Didn't attack.
2. Didn't actually manufacture a CB (this relates to 1, as there is no CB since there is no war).

I mean eventually the whole room decides to back up and not use a crappy CB and all of a sudden it's "OMG YOU GUYS WERE PLANNING IT ALL ALONG!!!@!@" I mean, surely certain Karma alliances weren't discussing the prospect of hitting NPO and friends before they had a legitimate CB. Heaven forbid.

If we had gone in, it would be hilarious. The logs also do make us look stupid. However, there really is no point in discussing an idea that was shot down by even WCE.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Earogema