In Response to Recent Drama

[Crymson]

RoK started this war after rebuffing at least two attempts by outside parties to mediate the dispute. Transparent motives, anyone?

Edited August 9, 2010 by Crymson

[lamuella]

This thread is almost enough to make me change my sig & apologize to Legion.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1281384854' post='2408210']
It seems to have been made abundantly clear that the member was under our protection until reason was given to dismiss him. RoK attacked anyway.
[/quote]
It seems abundantly clear by looking at the relevant publicly available material [OOC war dec screen /OOC] that your member declared war on several nations in RoK's protectorate as an unaligned nation, then joined your alliance. You lot then directly aided and abetted his aggression against RoK's protectorate, in the face of advice given to you regarding your member's behaviour and the associated consequences in assisting that behaviour. It's a clear-cut case to me - you guys $%&@ed up, simple as that. Spare us the whining and man up.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281369014' post='2407643']
Friendship. So, would you be inclined to tell me why, in the supposed 6 hour negotiations with RoK or whatever, or even when Hoo said "Aid the rogue and its war" and Heft goes ok, we will, NSO never told us that there was a situation with RoK that could lead to war? Please tell me? We love to switch sides before a beat down? Haven't we been beat down the most? Congratulations to z3 on being a total moron.
[/quote]

Keep trying to make this look good. Everyone else will continue to laugh. And yeah, I'm glad I still haven't filled out my bracket.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1281391170' post='2408427']
RoK started this war after rebuffing at least two attempts by outside parties to mediate the dispute. Transparent motives, anyone?
[/quote]

Crymson the last time you were worrying about transparent motives you needlessly cost your alliance millions of NS and their place on top of the game. From someone who likes your alliance, please listen to my advice and take a step back and chill. This war is what it is and nothing more.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281392000' post='2408446']
Crymson the last time you were worrying about transparent motives you needlessly cost your alliance millions of NS and their place on top of the game. From someone who likes your alliance, please listen to my advice and take a step back and chill. This war is what it is and nothing more.
[/quote]

Goldie, while what you have raised can be discussed back and forth looking past at history, I do not think that in my opinion it addresses the point that was currently raised by Crymson regarding attempts to mediate and resolve the issue peacefully twice by outside parties.



[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1281391329' post='2408430']
This thread is almost enough to make me change my sig & apologize to Legion.
[/quote]

[img]http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9100/gatowae.jpg[/img]

Tho, I must say it isn't as flashy as yours.

Edited August 9, 2010 by shahenshah

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1281391919' post='2408441']
It seems abundantly clear by looking at the relevant publicly available material [OOC war dec screen /OOC] that your member declared war on several nations in RoK's protectorate as an unaligned nation, then joined your alliance. You lot then directly aided and abetted his aggression against RoK's protectorate, in the face of advice given to you regarding your member's behaviour and the associated consequences in assisting that behaviour. It's a clear-cut case to me - you guys $%&@ed up, simple as that. Spare us the whining and man up.
[/quote]
He was spied on by the RoK protectorate. Thats why he attacked them.
[img]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2376/spyop.png[/img]

Edited August 9, 2010 by kevin32891

[Goldie]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1281392223' post='2408458']
Goldie, I do not think that this in anyway addressed the point that was raised by Crymson.





[img]http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9100/gatowae.jpg[/img]

Tho, I must say it isn't as flashy as yours.
[/quote]

To a point, yes, but at the same time it is an impossible venture trying to tell people "no, there are no ulterior motives to this other than applying a check on NSO's Gone Wild" so I tried to lay it out as clearly as possible that when you start reading too much into things and don't accept what people who are known to be men of their words (like him or not, Hoo is honest and up front) say, you bring yourself down a slippery slope to ruin.

[flakese]

GATO is technically in the right, but using a clause in a treaty usually reserved for blatant disrespect of communication in times of trial allows for little moral high ground. GATO leadership must have known when they made this decision that it would not look for them to cancel on a ally who asked for nothing during a time of war, yet they decided on a PR cluster$%&@, why? Where you guys suspicious of any plans the superfriends might have to drag you guys in?

[TehChron]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281392833' post='2408482']
To a point, yes, but at the same time it is an impossible venture trying to tell people "no, there are no ulterior motives to this other than applying a check on NSO's Gone Wild" so I tried to lay it out as clearly as possible that when you start reading too much into things and don't accept what people who are known to be men of their words (like him or not, Hoo is honest and up front) say, you bring yourself down a slippery slope to ruin.
[/quote]
How did we go wild, by the way? All we have is Heft sending aid to a member with accusations being a rogue to flip the bird at Hoo.

Hardly something that requires a check. Not that Omni hasn't already specifically said that had nothing to do with it.

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='dvdcchn' timestamp='1281381248' post='2408073']
lol it has been caught my orange brother, but again silly facts such as GATO knew but didnt go to their ally NSO is besides the point, the miscommunication is just a farce. heck i found out first not from NSO, but from my allies and friends. this whole thing happened in the middle of the night, and did not even span 12 hours. at least one gov member of GATO acknowledges that NSO was thrown under the bus.
[/quote]

Politics!

Good to know that people didn't miss the the extreme idiocy behind the first defense used by GATO. And from what I see the holes in every subsequent defense have only become larger as the defense has become more convoluted.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1281392541' post='2408471']
He was spied on by the RoK protectorate. Thats why he attacked them.
[img]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2376/spyop.png[/img]
[/quote]
Hoo/RoK knows they mucked this up and pushed for war on a junk CB. They are enjoying their time in power now, we'll see how long that lasts.

[the masheen]

Everytime I feel a little bad for NSO Fernando posts and I go back to hating them.

[TehChron]

[quote name='the masheen' timestamp='1281395890' post='2408558']
Everytime I feel a little bad for NSO Fernando posts and I go back to hating them.
[/quote]
Meh, maybe he should stop then.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='the masheen' timestamp='1281395890' post='2408558']
Everytime I feel a little bad for NSO Fernando posts and I go back to hating them.
[/quote]
I havent been paying attention, did he hit ZI yet?

[Baldr]

[quote name='Masterchief777' timestamp='1281340623' post='2407118']
Of course our allies told us what was gonna happen, we tried informing NSO but at the time it seemed NSO didn't give !@#$, When Omni finally got a chance to tell NSO, a few of you dropped to peace mode That's why RoK DoWed in the middle of the day.
[/quote]

The fact that NSO started going to peace mode after Omni told them "Hey, you are about to be attacked" looks like evidence that they weren't expected, prior to that, to be attacked. If they knew that an attack was coming, and were going to try and use peace mode, why wait for GATO to tell them? Why not go to PM sooner?


[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281341340' post='2407138']
Actually if VE would have not told us about what was going on I would be throwing a fit about what happened too. Except they did tell us just like several other of our allies.
[/quote]

I've seen nothing to make me think that VE ever talked to NSO. If not, then NSO had no idea that VE was going to attack. That fits with the trying to jump to peace mode when you told them - which is when they found out they were about to get rolled.

And it doesn't fit with "OMG, they knew all along that a big war was coming and told us nothing".

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281350592' post='2407282']
Athens and FoB raiding Knights of Ni! because I was bored would be a good example of someone doing something stupid and having their allies stand by them. This is not the same thing. This is a case of NSO being clearly told the consequences of aiding a rogue and DOING IT ANYWAY. There is a HUGE difference between deliberate acts of war against an alliance, and simple stupidity. [/quote]

I'm having trouble following the logic here. Sending $6M in aid is a "deliberate act of war" but actually attacking an entire alliance isn't?

You need to think that through a bit, because I don't think many people are going to buy it.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1281386323' post='2408278']
When a former member of GATO who stood for so long against the viceroyship of NPO against GATO says this, well....you just need to quote it now and then.
[/quote]

Well sorta. I was very unhappy with this decision when I posted that. In some ways I'm actually unhappier now than before (we'll get to that, hang on) but I'd like to amend my statement. No alliance deserves to die, or to have a viceroy, or even to be curbstomped. What I really meant with that quote is that it seems some of GATO's leadership has forgotten what its like to have their allies and friends drop treaties days or hours before an attack, forgotten what its like to face an unwinnable war over what should have been a forgivable mistake, forgotten the year in which their government was torn down and some of their best members were blacklisted. If they'd remembered, this horrendous misjudgment would not have happened.

As to why I'm angrier now than before. Last night I talked to a few GATO members about this. Good honest people who in my mind truly stand for strength in unity and honor in justice. Unfortunately the things they said in private and what they are saying to all of you out here in public are so different that I cannot in good faith call some of their public statements anything but lies. I earnestly believe these people are just trying to defend their alliance against the criticism this sudden treaty drop caused but there's got to be a point where their own judgements and feelings come before the defense of their alliance. Always putting the alliance first without question can mean putting your own personal honor last as I feel is the case here. To those people I say: [b]STOP![/b] Stop putting the alliance before yourselves in this way. It's not ya'lls job to go out and defend every action, especially ones you actually disagree with. I don't expect or even wish for ya'll to apologize or reverse your statements but I would hope ya'll would have the dignity to at least remain silent instead of going against your personal feelings.

Lastly let me once again voice my great respect and faith in GATO. This voiding of the NSO's treaty was a mistake but as some have said in the grand scheme of things it was really a small issue. If the timing and method had been better this would have been seen as simply and rightly one alliance cutting ties with another it no longer had a strong friendship with. Labels such as WAE should not be apart of anyone's vocabulary when referring to GATO. I may be one of their harshest critics when they do something wrong, but I also know it is an alliance that has weathered some of the harshest storms this world has ever thrown any organization. It is manned and led by some great people and it has accomplished more than most alliances on Bob ever will.

[Baldr]

In case I haven't made it clear, I think NSO did stupid things. They accepted a new members who had agressive wars showing, and sent aid to him *after* being told that it wouldn't be taken well. No way that is smart.

But until Ragnarok and friends declared on NSO, it was all small time stuff. That nation was so small that $6M would bring him from ZI back to larger than he had been before. I wouldn't have expected a huge curbstomp war over some thing so small.

And I sure wouldn't have expected any honorable alliance to cancel a treaty over it, especially with NSO saying "We aren't asking our allies for help".

[SonOfHoward]

There could be a few things happening here. Below I present 3 viable scenarios of what has transpired and what is going on behind the scenes right now.

1. NSO asking their allies not to help is actually a way of goading their allies to help. If NSO asked them outright their allies would probably say 'no'.

2. Point 2 is somewhat related to point 1. NSO is saving their allies from the embarrassment of having to say 'No' to helping them.

3. OR it's still too early and a counter attack is in the making!

Edited August 9, 2010 by SonOfHoward

[elpadrino]

at least you didn´t come with the "we just lost communication lately" cause, it would have been worse
good luck GATO

[Griff]

[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1281365967' post='2407534']
Meh this is bull and you know it. The NSO treaty was a terrible idea in the first place, and the treaty deserves to have died since they signed with IRON, or after the last large war where NSO expected GATO to defend IRON's pre-emptive attack.

I don't see where people are having such a hard time comprehending this. NSO never should have aided that rogue. When you do stupid !@#$, do you really not expect there to be negative repercussions?
[/quote]
Hi, http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=75249&view=findpost&p=2011278

So does this mean your word here is worthless?

[Branimir]

[quote name='Griff' timestamp='1281398505' post='2408656']
Hi, http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=75249&view=findpost&p=2011278

So does this mean your word here is worthless?
[/quote]
Ohohohohoho,....ouuuuu

Damn, I felt that burn all the way here. Yikes.

[Lennox]

[quote name='Griff' timestamp='1281398505' post='2408656']
Hi, http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=75249&view=findpost&p=2011278

So does this mean your word here is worthless?
[/quote]

Holy !@#$ man that was a snipe. Can I get a

[Griff]

[quote name='Lennox' timestamp='1281398781' post='2408663']
Holy !@#$ man that was a snipe. Can I get a
[/quote]
Mebbe

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Griff' timestamp='1281398505' post='2408656']
Hi, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=75249&view=findpost&p=2011278"]http://forums.cybern...dpost&p=2011278[/url]

So does this mean your word here is worthless?
[/quote]

You owe me a new computer, mine caught fire from the heat from that epic burn.