MHA Announcement

[ROMMELHSQ]

sad and stupid... but necessary I suppose

[shahenshah]

All those criticizing MHA really need to spend some time with Ramirus, you'll come back running and shower hails in here.

Fact is MHA is describing a de-facto situation. How do you cancel an eternal treaty you people ask? Well, you spell yourself as Ramirus Maximus and go tell you eternal partner tl;dr whatever, f*** off. Then go about killing your own alliance.

Be intellectually honest with yourselves, Gre left MHA with no option. I know for a fact MHA tried v. hard for peace, it tried v. hard to protect Gre, it tried to reason with Gre in every possible way, what it got was less than respectful in return.

Only Gramlins in general and Ramirus in particular are responsible for this.

Edited August 2, 2010 by shahenshah

[Letum]

A piece of paper is a piece of paper. A relationship is what truly matters, and all this arguing about what one letter justifies and the other forbids is ultimately meaningless.

[iamthey]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1280736876' post='2398163']
All those criticizing MHA really need to spend some time with Ramirus, you'll come back running and shower hails in here.

Fact is MHA is describing a de-facto situation. How do you cancel an eternal treaty you people ask? Well, you spell yourself as Ramirus Maximus and go tell you eternal partner tl;dr whatever, f*** off. Then go about killing your own alliance.

Be intellectually honest with yourselves, Gre left MHA with no option. I know for a fact MHA tried v. hard for peace, it tried v. hard to protect Gre, it tried to reason with Gre in every possible way, what it got was less than respectful in return.

Only Gramlins in general and Ramirus in particular are responsible for this.
[/quote]

Most people offering criticism are not doing so in the defense of Gre, or Ramirus. It is more focused on MHA's general history of treaty violations.

[ojiras ajeridas]

I have to admit that that "It was wrong to cancel that treaty, they should have waited until Grämlins disband" made me smile a little bit. I mean, if we put aside exaggerated e-lawyering and watch at it from a more pragmatic point of view, what is better? To have a treaty with an alliance hoping on your disbanding, or cancel that treaty? If MHA continued Härmlins accords although they didn't find anything in common with Ramlins' path any more, these accords would have become some worthless paper garbage. Worthless paper garbage should be recycled as soon as possible. In my opinion, the big mistake in hindsight that MHA made wasn't to cancel this treaty, but to sign it. The expression "eternal" should be banned from treaties at all. Nothing is "eternal" on Planet Bob. The only thing that MHA violated in this treaty was the senseless non-cancellation-clause, which of course is unfortunate, but not worth all this hick-hack.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1280737224' post='2398169']
Most people offering criticism are not doing so in the defense of Gre, or Ramirus. It is more focused on MHA's general history of treaty violations.
[/quote]

Its only fair to look at events in there context. I am not particularly fond of the gap between the words and deeds of MHA in last couple years, But this specific action, when put in context does not seem to add a dot to the trend line you're referring to, IMO.

Its just my opinion and I respect yours too old freind.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I was wondering if an MoFA for Harmlin could possibly share with us their definitions of unbreakable and honest just for our records so we can know in the future what we're getting into with all these unbreakable and honest to goodness treaties that last less than 2 years.

I'm kind of curious if they've borrowed definitions from the Vogon Dictionary (probably the only thing worse than the Vogon poetry).

This just goes to show if you want a Harmlin treaty to last forever you have to have their assurances it is written upon their towels!

Edited August 2, 2010 by Maelstrom Vortex

[RustyNail]

The HA was signed with The Grämlins. That once fine and proud alliance has been dead and gone for some time now. Whereas I am a former member of MHA and a former fan of Gre, I haven't been a huge fan of either for some time now. I think they should have done this a while ago, whether it has a cancellation clause or not, a treaty such as this is built on a relationship and level of friendship and brotherhood that disappeared long ago. When it all comes down to it, a treaty is only worth the relationship that it is founded upon.

This needed to be done. Next time, just rip off the band-aid, it will hurt less.

[Timberland]

So MHA, who are you going to follow around mindlessly now ?

[majorddf]

[quote]So MHA, who are you going to follow around mindlessly now ? [/quote]

Ahaha.

[Dilber]

[quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1280728591' post='2398038']
Sorry, I got my facts mixed up. He left the NPO AA to try to hide and escape into peace mode while NPO was getting it's $@! whooped. (April 28, 2009) but it was not to join the NSO [i]at that time[/i]. It was reported by Corinan (of NSO) that's how I attached NSO to Dilber 7 months earlier than when he finally left NPO for NSO.

So to correct my earlier statement, Dilber left NPO while they were at war to try to hide and get into peace mode (while wearing a dress and carrying a baby) but his story is that he left NPO "so he could fight" (by getting into peace mode?) but he didn't leave to join NSO, he carried "The Dark Knight" AA.



http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55874&view=findpost&p=1479254
[/quote]

Actually, you still have it wrong. It's well known what actually happened on those couple of days. The FA department of the NPO was blamed for the start of Karma after being completely ignored through the entire leadup. After being used initially as scapegoats, Triyun and myself changed our AAs to another alliance that we were considering forming. We were not unmasked on the NPO boards(I was still an admin), and both of us stated that we would fight until the NPO achieved peace, as we were some of the people in charge of the Order. I think it was 2-3 days later at most that both Triyun and myself switched back to the NPO AA.

Triyun states it publicly that we were both engaged at the same time, and would continue to fight until peace was achieved for the Order. Said thread you linked ;)

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55874&view=findpost&p=1479383

I left the NPO during the Bipolar war to fight for the NSO, and entered with minimal tech after having spent almost a year paying tech reps.

[leprecon]

You could easily argue that the current Grämlins are but a shell of their former selves hence the Härmlins doesn't apply to them.

But honestly, does anyone really want to follow a treaty just because the treaty says so, not because you respect your ally?
I don't blame them for cancelling that which technically cannot be cancelled.

[Rextu]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1280736933' post='2398164']
A piece of paper is a piece of paper. A relationship is what truly matters, and all this arguing about what one letter justifies and the other forbids is ultimately meaningless.
[/quote]

You remind me of IRON.

[Karesh]

That treaty seemed like it had existed from the beginning of Bob. A sad moment to see its passing, good luck for the future.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1280726028' post='2397967']
oh, thats how you remember it.

MHA canceled the Ordinance of the Orders (amazing since they were not even a signatory of it) and you bravely fought your way out of the doomed Alamo, while it was under attack, because you wanted to "fight" in the war. As if there wasn't enough fight in NPO's own front yard? Did you wear a dress and carry a baby while you were "fighting" your way out?
[/quote]
No, that's not when he left.

Ruler: Dilber
Alliance Affiliation: New Sith Order
Alliance Seniority: 1/29/2010 11:13:34 PM (185 Days)

On January 29th, 2010, the NPO was at peace.

[quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1280728591' post='2398038']
Sorry, I got my facts mixed up. He left the NPO AA to try to hide and escape into peace mode while NPO was getting it's $@! whooped. (April 28, 2009) but it was not to join the NSO [i]at that time[/i]. It was reported by Corinan (of NSO) that's how I attached NSO to Dilber 7 months earlier than when he finally left NPO for NSO.
[/quote]
No, this also is not accurate. You're now talking completely out of your $@!, as you don't know what Black Knights was about.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1280729316' post='2398067']
ODN has signed then shattered two practically unbreakable treaties? That's news to me and I fancy myself a CN historian.
[/quote]
Well, they did sign Orrple twice.

[Bob Janova]

Welcome to no. 1, MHA. Enjoy the hate. (And don't let it get you paranoid like it did TOP.) Considering you're getting criticised for both 'enabling Ramirus' and 'abandoning an ally', I'd say you probably did the right thing at the right time in difficult circumstances.

I told you at the time that we should put a cancellation clause into Harmlins. Unfortunately, both sides (led by Shamshir and Syz mostly) were overly idealistic and went for a 'till death do we part' treaty, and that means that you're now collecting the PR fallout for 'divorce', which is unfortunate but inevitable. To those who are hating on MHA for that, let me ask you: if you married someone, and five years later they had turned abusive, would you expect to stay in that marriage forever, or to receive the levels of hate you're dishing out here to MHA for the divorce?

Yes, it was stupid to make Harmlins 'eternal'. That stupidity is not at the door of the people you're throwing hate at now, though, and I'm sure the lesson – don't sign long cancellation period treaties – has been learnt.

It's also amusing to see the hate posts from MK (MHA were useful enough to you in Bipolar) and NPO (no, they didn't betray you, it was an MDP not an MADP and you attacked without giving them notice). TOP is more understandable since they did get hit by several bandwagones in Bipolar and MHA did nothing to help there.

[Scorn]

Today sucks. Finding out that people hate MHA for mistakes we have made in the past is no surprise. Losing the Härmlin Accords and the relationship that was there with Grämlins is what hurts.

o/ Grämlins

[Branimir]

Its a sticky situation. There wasn't a 100% correct answer. You did what you felt right and it is unavoidable you will get flanked for it, as said prior.

Treaties which sell themselves as unbreakable can turn into a prison. In experience of my alliance, I can get an idea how it is like. Although it is so often mentioned, OoO, truth is 90% of those that mention it weren't here when it was forged. Back then nobody thought (I suppose) 3 years ahead, environment was young, dynamics quick, wars weren't planned years ahead. NpO was a blue NPO, nothing else in the beginning. It made sense. I am sure at the time you signed this with Gre it made sense to you as well.

But time and years will do their charm. You learn and move on.

As I mentioned in your embassy at our place, I only think that you should have done it earlier. Gre had its backing, as we can see from all the barking Mk is doing here, Gre was well covered in every step of their lunacy and auto destruction. And as also what I mentioned there, I do love me the "shade" of numb. 2, hah. You have to suck it up, I guess.

[HellAngel]

Well you stuck it out longer than was reasonable and shorter than was worded in the treaty. Hard decision, definately. But at least Gremlins can finally die now and we can remember them for what they were, rather than what they have become.

Good decision nevertheless.

[Joe Stupid]

What I don't get was out of respect for you guys, they didn't even ask you to intervene (instead they begged every other alliance xD) and you turn your backs on them? I knew you guys weren't they greatest alliance, but i did expect some class. It just goes to show that even though you might be number 1 in stats, you're clearly a bottom shelf alliance. Poor show.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1280749077' post='2398283']

I told you at the time that we should put a cancellation clause into Harmlins. Unfortunately, both sides (led by Shamshir and Syz mostly) were overly idealistic and went for a [b]'till death do we part' treaty[/b], and that means that you're now collecting the PR fallout for 'divorce', which is unfortunate but inevitable. To those who are hating on MHA for that, let me ask you: if you married someone, and five years later they had turned abusive, would you expect to stay in that marriage forever, or to receive the levels of hate you're dishing out here to MHA for the divorce?

[/quote]

Read the bolded. (or we can read the treaty text)

Loophole. I think its been said plenty that Gre is dead and have been for a long time.
So, if it is "til death do we part" then MHA has done nothing wrong here.
Gre is dead. Go back and read how many times people have said so.
Some of the same lot that are bashing MHA have said Gre is dead.
You can't expect a treaty to be valid with a dead alliance.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Fernando12

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Cable77' timestamp='1280702781' post='2397435']
[center][img]http://www.mostlyharmlessalliance.com/styles/hermes/imageset/MHA.jpg[/img][/center]

On November 5, 2008, the Mostly Harmless Alliance and The Grämlins came together to present a unique treaty in The Härmlin Accords. Since that time, our two alliances have been through a lot, both good and bad.

There are many that will say that without the Grämlins, MHA would not be where it is today. For a long time, our alliance was greatly assisted by the Grämlins, both financially and diplomatically. That bond of friendship lasted for many months. Even as, to our dismay, many of the prominent members slowly left the alliance.

Eventually, Ramirus Maximus came to power and soon began changing the Grämlins into an entity that, by his own admission, was not the same alliance we had signed with; all of this while insulting those we called friends.

Sadly, the Grämlins recently embarked on a path in which we were unwilling to follow. In fact, we were not asked to do so. Soon after the Easter Accords were signed, Ramirus told us, "We'll handle it from here." What followed was a demand for IRON's unconditional surrender that many, both in our alliance and the world at large, did not support. This further strained the relationship. As feared, this path has lead to the demise of our once great ally.

We're glad to see that they found peace, but we miss our old friends and we are sad to see what their alliance has become. When the Accords were signed, we could not envision that such a change would take place. It is with heavy hearts that we must do what we at one time considered unthinkable and cancel The Härmlin Accords. We wish the remaining Grämlins the very best of luck. Out of respect for the relationship we once shared, we will continue to protect their AA for one week.

As for us, we will always remember the fifth of November as a day when a bond turned into a brotherhood, and the day when we became one with The Grämlins. Thank you for everything our former brothers.

[u]Signed,[/u]
MajorDDF, [i]Triumvir[/i]
Dynasty, [i]Triumvir[/i]
Cable77, [i]Triumvir[/i]
Unpronounced, [i]Minister of Hitchhikers[/i]
MaDSpartus, [i]Minister of Destructor Fleets[/i]
Yankeefan2, [i]Minister of Babel Fish[/i]
Jadoo1989, [i]Minister of Towels, Triumvir Emeritus[/i]
Priya91, [i]Minister of Bad Poetry[/i]
[/quote]


That's weak.


When Athens pulled their little raiding stunt, MK stood by them. I don't even like those shroomy !@#$%^&* and they took a lot of flak for "protecting a menace to society" yadda yadda, but even I can say that at least they had the guts to stick by someone even though they made a very unpopular decision. That's what friends do.

When you're bound by oaths of friendship and brotherhood, even when the other is going through a phase (which, obviously GRE are) and they put you in a tough spot or embarrass you by association, you don't abandon them. You console them, advise them, hell, [i]force them[/i] to make better decisions. But don't turn your back for the sake of political expediency. That's short sighted and, frankly, pretty weak.

Don't you think that with the devastation wrought by Ramirus Maximus that you wouldn't have had a good chance of convincing the membership to seek a new path or leader? Or, even if you just waited, and GRE was reduced to nothing but a 1 man alliance, what harm would come of still staying true to a treaty you proclaimed as 'eternal'?

Then, had you done either of those two, you wouldn't have to look like such spineless opportunists as you do now.

Sad to see such a unique treaty come to an end, and I'm sure it was a hard decision. Probably not as hard as doing what you said you were going to do, but, hey, people make their own misery.

Good luck and all that.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[CRexx]

This is impressive, really. It makes the betrayal of "The Imperial Accords" look good and that typically takes some doing. Or when the Legion attacked despite NAPs in GWIII.

The whole reason MHA deserves to take flack over this is they always take the easy path . They wait until the Gramlins have lost and stand as a broken alliance (both in terms of political power and physical power) and then they suddenly get off their rears and drop the "eternal" treaty. Months ago when the Gramlins were still strong and could have been of use, MHA was refusing to drop the treaty and talking about how it was eternal. Once they realized the Gramlins are 12 smoking craters, suddenly it wasn't so eternal.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280755665' post='2398320']
That's weak.


When Athens pulled their little raiding stunt, MK stood by them. I don't even like those shroomy !@#$%^&* and they took a lot of flak for "protecting a menace to society" yadda yadda, but even I can say that at least they had the guts to stick by someone even though they made a very unpopular decision. That's what friends do.

When you're bound by oaths of friendship and brotherhood, even when the other is going through a phase (which, obviously GRE are) and they put you in a tough spot or embarrass you by association, you don't abandon them. You console them, advise them, hell, [i]force them[/i] to make better decisions. But don't turn your back for the sake of political expediency. That's short sighted and, frankly, pretty weak.

Don't you think that with the devastation wrought by Ramirus Maximus that you wouldn't have had a good chance of convincing the membership to seek a new path or leader? Or, even if you just waited, and GRE was reduced to nothing but a 1 man alliance, what harm would come of still staying true to a treaty you proclaimed as 'eternal'?

Then, had you done either of those two, you wouldn't have to look like such spineless opportunists as you do now.

Sad to see such a unique treaty come to an end, and I'm sure it was a hard decision. Probably not as hard as doing what you said you were going to do, but, hey, people make their own misery.

Good luck and all that.
[/quote]

Your argument is weak.

How many treaties have been canceled in the history of planet bob?
By your logic everyone has abandoned and turned their back on an ally at some point.
It isn't MHA's place to impose a new leader on GRE.
GRE is garbage, why should MHA risk being treatied to someone they no longer know or support.
Why should MHA risk GRE being attacked and activating the treaty?
MHA responsibility is MHA. They are doing the hard right thing.
A few days of bad PR perhaps, but they will survive.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1280756153' post='2398325']
Your argument is weak.

How many treaties have been canceled in the history of planet bob?
By your logic everyone has abandoned and turned their back on an ally at some point.
It isn't MHA's place to impose a new leader on GRE.
GRE is garbage, why should MHA risk being treatied to someone they no longer know or support.
Why should MHA risk GRE being attacked and activating the treaty?
MHA responsibility is MHA. They are doing the hard right thing.
A few days of bad PR perhaps, but they will survive.
[/quote]

Had it been any other kind of treaty, I might not have had such an opinion on it. But it was, and I do.

I'm not saying you can't cancel treaties, relationships do change. But they locked themselves into a treaty that was termed unbreakable. The wisdom of doing that is, mmmm, open to debate.

But once you're in something like that, you're in for life.

Sure, they could say, "our friends screwed up really bad, they won't listen to us, we don't even know each other anymore (which, it takes two for that to happen) and they are a potential liability", but even then they should say "but we're not going to cancel this treaty because our word means something. We have [b][i]integrity[/i][/b]. Now we're going to help our friends emerge from this stronger and wiser."

And while I also would not normally advise one alliance to meddle in the internal affairs of another, in a deep relationship like that, if there is one person who is obviously leading the alliance off the end of a cliff, their friends should step in and at least give some very strong advice on changing things up. Even if GRE took offense to that and canceled first, it wouldn't have been MHA with egg on their face.