Joint New Polar Order/Ragnarok Announcement

[Proko]

[quote name='heggo' date='01 April 2010 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1270094979' post='2243045']
I'm good in the hugs department, actually, but an apology from your alliance would be fine instead.

Or can't y'all take responsibility for your mistakes?
[/quote]

I highly doubt you are going to get an apology from Penguin over a decision he didn't make. Similarly, you're not going to get an apology from me for a decision I didn't make. We will also not apologize for Sponge's actions that precipitated the Second Patriotic War, nor will we apologize to GATO for not recognizing them as alliance. We will recognize that things occurred, but we are not going to take responsibility for decisions we didn't make.

[heggo]

But no doubt Jrenster also would appreciate an apology. I don't think there are many Sith that wouldn't.

[heggo]

[quote name='Proko' date='31 March 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1270095524' post='2243059']
I highly doubt you are going to get an apology from Penguin over a decision he didn't make. Similarly, you're not going to get an apology from me for a decision I didn't make. We will also not apologize for Sponge's actions that precipitated the Second Patriotic War, nor will we apologize to GATO for not recognizing them as alliance. We will recognize that things occurred, but we are not going to take responsibility for decisions we didn't make.
[/quote]

Has the entirety of your gov changed?

Also, I like how you couldn't even use some dry phrase like "mistakes were made." You had to say "things occurred." Way to go. It's practically a microcosm for the issue. No matter what argument you raise, you seem unwilling to man up to the facts of your betrayal. Oh well. If you'd only be honest about it...

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Proko' date='01 April 2010 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1270095524' post='2243059']
I highly doubt you are going to get an apology from Penguin over a decision he didn't make. Similarly, you're not going to get an apology from me for a decision I didn't make. We will also not apologize for Sponge's actions that precipitated the Second Patriotic War, nor will we apologize to GATO for not recognizing them as alliance. We will recognize that things occurred, but we are not going to take responsibility for decisions we didn't make.
[/quote]

Okay, everything was going fine until I saw this. I highly doubt that Polar is an irresponsible alliance that only places blame on their leaders. That's just ridiculous. When the Emperor moves, the rest of Polar does. When the Emperor makes a mistake, the rest of Polar does. If disagree with your leaders mistakes, you do something about it.

Just like when your leadership re-signs a treaty with Ragnarok, the rest of Polar is responsible for it as well.

[Proko]

[quote name='heggo' date='01 April 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1270095754' post='2243066']
Has the entirety of your gov changed?

Also, I like how you couldn't even use some dry phrase like "mistakes were made." You had to say "things occurred." Way to go. It's practically a microcosm for the issue. No matter what argument you raise, you seem unwilling to man up to the facts of your betrayal. Oh well. If you'd only be honest about it...
[/quote]

There is one person in Polaris that makes the final decision on anything. I was in Sponge's government as the Minister of Love when he undertook actions that led directly to the Second Patriotic War, such as declaring war on FIST and signing that treaty with Hyperion or whatever. I am not going to apologize for those decisions, as wrong as I may think them to be, unless I had something to do with it myself.

Your last paragraph displays your closed-mind. It does not seem clear to me that this discussion serves any purpose to you, as your mind is very obviously made up. I am not sure how you are so sure that what transpired was purely the fault of Polaris, but you have either seen some damning evidence, or not heard our side of it. I'd be willing to discuss this more with you in detail if you are earnestly interested in hearing more of the Polar perspective. But if you want to keep your mind made up, then that's fine as well.

[USMC123]

Wait, the Sith feel WRONGED? Come on, I thought you guys believed that doing whatever it takes to come out on top (or at least keep others down) was the proper way to do things? Oh wait, not when they're done to you right?

[Proko]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='01 April 2010 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1270096171' post='2243071']
Okay, everything was going fine until I saw this. I highly doubt that Polar is an irresponsible alliance that only places blame on their leaders. That's just ridiculous. When the Emperor moves, the rest of Polar does. When the Emperor makes a mistake, the rest of Polar does. If disagree with your leaders mistakes, you do something about it.

Just like when your leadership re-signs a treaty with Ragnarok, the rest of Polar is responsible for it as well.
[/quote]

They are and they aren't. There is nothing you can do to force me (or Penguin or yourself) to take responsibility for actions undertaken by Sponge, for example.

If you thought when the NSO recruited from neutrals was wrong, and you yourself did not personally partake, are you responsible for it? The implications, I would say, stray from the intent of this announcement. Like I said, I'd be happy to talk about it with you more, however.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' date='31 March 2010 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1270094065' post='2243014']
Y'know, NpO has backstabbed, betrayed,and disregarded many alliances.
[/quote]

Funniest post of the entire thread

[ClashCityRocker]

[quote name='Proko' date='01 April 2010 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1270096354' post='2243074']
There is one person in Polaris that makes the final decision on anything. I was in Sponge's government as the Minister of Love when he undertook actions that led directly to the Second Patriotic War, such as declaring war on FIST and signing that treaty with Hyperion or whatever. I am not going to apologize for those decisions, as wrong as I may think them to be, unless I had something to do with it myself.

Your last paragraph displays your closed-mind. It does not seem clear to me that this discussion serves any purpose to you, as your mind is very obviously made up. I am not sure how you are so sure that what transpired was purely the fault of Polaris, but you have either seen some damning evidence, or not heard our side of it. I'd be willing to discuss this more with you in detail if you are earnestly interested in hearing more of the Polar perspective. But if you want to keep your mind made up, then that's fine as well.
[/quote]

your not absolved from mistakes simply because you didnt make them, if you allowed them to happen. Regardless of government structure, if you think your alliance is making a bad decision you can either try to change it or leave. or you can blindly follow, in which case you're an enabler of all decisions your alliance makes, not blameless.

[flak attack]

Good to see this signed. I know you guys both considered each other to be among your closest friends a few months ago. I'm glad recent events couldn't drive you apart.

[Big Z]

Congratulations to both Polar and RoK on this great treaty

[Proko]

[quote name='ClashCityRocker' date='01 April 2010 - 12:38 AM' timestamp='1270096705' post='2243080']
your not absolved from mistakes simply because you didnt make them, if you allowed them to happen. Regardless of government structure, if you think your alliance is making a bad decision you can either try to change it or leave. or you can blindly follow, in which case you're an enabler of all decisions your alliance makes, not blameless.
[/quote]

There is more to it than that. You ignore ideas like those of community and loyalty. I am a Polar because I am a Polar. I plan to always be a Polar - this is where my community is and this is where my friends are. An alliance exists as more than an extension of its government, but as its own character, albeit without agency.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Proko' date='01 April 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1270096525' post='2243077']
They are and they aren't. There is nothing you can do to force me (or Penguin or yourself) to take responsibility for actions undertaken by Sponge, for example.

If you thought when the NSO recruited from neutrals was wrong, and you yourself did not personally partake, are you responsible for it? The implications, I would say, stray from the intent of this announcement. Like I said, I'd be happy to talk about it with you more, however.
[/quote]

Yes. We are responsible for it. Just like we were responsible for our refusal to surrender. We won't force you to apologize, we are just asking for it. But alas, we are straying off topic.

In any case, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Polar re-allying themselves with Ragnarok in my opinion.

[Griff]

[quote name='Proko' date='01 April 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1270096354' post='2243074']
Your last paragraph displays your closed-mind. It does not seem clear to me that this discussion serves any purpose to you, as your mind is very obviously made up. I am not sure how you are so sure that what transpired was purely the fault of Polaris, but you have either seen some damning evidence, or not heard our side of it. I'd be willing to discuss this more with you in detail if you are earnestly interested in hearing more of the Polar perspective. But if you want to keep your mind made up, then that's fine as well.
[/quote]
If you wanted to tell us your side of things, then why did you send us a diplomat who, and I quote "was not very active for the whole blowup"? Damming evidence eh? Your leaving us out on the field twice (quite an accomplishment in a single war, I might add) was a very public affair. None of us have a "closed mind", as you call it because what you did to us is cold hard fact, made in announcements by your government, who would have at least have to have gone along with grub's erratic actions of the time.

If it's not completely your fault, then it's damn close.

[NearX]

Congrats, glad things worked out

[SWAT128]

Can't say I agree with Rok signing a treaty with NpO again this fast. I really hope this doesn't come to bite you in the $@! again Hoo.

[Rampage3]

It is good to FINALLY see this. I thank Dajobo for listening and for understanding when he could have simply been defensive. I thank the rest of Polar's membership for reaching out to us, for keeping the faith that we would find our way back.

O/ Ragnarok!

O/ Polaris!

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Glad to have this back. Very glad indeed, a triumph of genuine friendships all round. Not just Ragnarok and Polaris, but a whole gamut of people from all parts of the planet. Working together, overcomes everything.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Proko' date='31 March 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1270096891' post='2243084']
There is more to it than that. You ignore ideas like those of community and loyalty. I am a Polar because I am a Polar. I plan to always be a Polar - this is where my community is and this is where my friends are.
[/quote]

For some reason I noticed this comment by accident b/c I typically don't read these back and forths, but I can applaud this sentiment. PPL should stick with their friends.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Proko' date='01 April 2010 - 05:19 AM' timestamp='1270095524' post='2243059']
I highly doubt you are going to get an apology from Penguin over a decision he didn't make. Similarly, you're not going to get an apology from me for a decision I didn't make. We will also not apologize for Sponge's actions that precipitated the Second Patriotic War, nor will we apologize to GATO for not recognizing them as alliance. We will recognize that things occurred, but we are not going to take responsibility for decisions we didn't make.
[/quote]

I doubt they want an apology from Penguin, more an apology from NpO. Who better to represent NpO than its emperor?

Edited April 1, 2010 by silentkiller

[ClashCityRocker]

[quote name='Proko' date='01 April 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1270096891' post='2243084']
There is more to it than that. You ignore ideas like those of community and loyalty. I am a Polar because I am a Polar. I plan to always be a Polar - this is where my community is and this is where my friends are. An alliance exists as more than an extension of its government, but as its own character, albeit without agency.
[/quote]

I ignore concepts like loyalty eh? that couldnt be more ironic coming from any other alliance. Sure community is important, but at a certain point concepts like common decency are more important than wanting to belong.

[D34th]

[quote name='Jrenster' date='01 April 2010 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1270096982' post='2243086']
Yes. We are responsible for it. Just like [b]we were responsible for our refusal to surrender.[/b] We won't force you to apologize, we are just asking for it. But alas, we are straying off topic.

In any case, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Polar re-allying themselves with Ragnarok in my opinion.
[/quote]

We have nothing to apologize for, as you said NSO is the only responsible for do not accept do beer review and get peace. Polaris made many mistakes in this war but peace out with GOD/VE/etc after NSO call our help useless and refuse to accept a simple beer(food) review wasn't one of them.

[Smacky]

Wow, I thought you were better then this RoK.

[Dilber]

Look on the bright side. When Polar hits the alliance you don't need help with, you still have SF there to take out the ones you actually need. Good thing you didn't need help with them, because they'll leave soon anyways.


I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I hope that Ragnarok gets treated better then us.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='D34th' date='01 April 2010 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1270097445' post='2243100']
We have nothing to apologize for, as you said NSO is the only responsible for do not accept do beer review and get peace. Polaris made many mistakes in this war but peace out with GOD/VE/etc after NSO call our help useless and refuse to accept a simple beer(food) review wasn't one of them.
[/quote]

This is a different issue that can be discussed in private channels. Such as Sith embassy boards. Like I said, we're getting off topic.