The New Grämlins

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1273003482' post='2286659']
I'll cross that reps bridge if it comes to that. It's not up to me.

Better than I deserve? As if I've done something so terribly insidious! Here there are an abundance of people telling IRON/DAWN to keep GRE in an eternal war, to give us perma ZI, to force us to disband, to keep us in nuclear anarchy [b]forever[/b] and you're still getting uppity about what we [b]might[/b] do.

Please spare me the self-righteous tripe about what I "deserve."
Until GRE actually makes some harsh surrender terms (which we have no history of doing) you're just fearmongering about change.
[/quote]
You're not getting it here. We'll keep you in nuclear anarchy until you stop keeping us in war. If that means forever, so be it. Don't complain about something that you are bringing on yourself.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='04 May 2010 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1273003704' post='2286663']
You're not getting it here. We'll keep you in nuclear anarchy until you stop keeping us in war. If that means forever, so be it. Don't complain about something that you are bringing on yourself.
[/quote]


No, you're not getting it. I'm not talking about what happens in a war.
I'm talking about what people have proposed as terms for GRE.

[Lord Brendan]

I would really like to see an answer to this:

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='02 May 2010 - 11:13 PM' timestamp='1272856370' post='2284606']
Why must the terms be kept secret?
[/quote]

I just don't see the logic in it, especially given the assurances that the terms would be nothing you wouldn't accept yourselves. If that's the case, why not reveal them, have IRON accept them and end the war (I'm aware that might no longer be possible, but it was at one point)?

[Gamemaster1]

Show us, please, where they've posted those as terms. Seems to me that they are saying this is what'll happen until Grems decide to stop going for an unconditional surrender and just end the war.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='04 May 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1273004612' post='2286682']
I would really like to see an answer to this:



I just don't see the logic in it, especially given the assurances that the terms would be nothing you wouldn't accept yourselves. If that's the case, why not reveal them, have IRON accept them and end the war (I'm aware that might no longer be possible, but it was at one point)?
[/quote]

And if that was the case why did would they have not handled terms when everyone else did? Its makes zero sense for them to claim they had fair terms in mind when they could have had those terms during the original peace talks. They resisted and continued the demand for unconditional surrender until everyone else got tired of being held up by them and moved and peace was made. So one of two things must be true. The terms were so harsh that unconditional surrender was they only way to get them or Gramlins has the least competent leadership we have ever seen on Planet Bob. Me? I thinks it a little of both.

[Stetson76]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1273003482' post='2286659']
And the codex does mean something to me, and my opinion counts. [b]We're requiring an unconditional surrender. That is not a harsh term nor is it a term I wouldn't accept.[/b] Furthermore, the terms we do give them after they surrender will conform to the moral standards set forth in our codex.[/quote]

I thought unconditional surrender wasn't a term?

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='29 April 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1272572215' post='2280220']
Not splitting hairs at all.
Terms of a peace are not on the table. GRE requires a surrender.

Requiring a surrender is not a term, in fact "unconditional" mean [b]"without conditions"[/b] which demonstrates that terms have not been put on the table.
I suspect that what you mean by "hidden behind door number 3" is what the terms will be when terms are actually offered. If so, then there is no violation of the codex. Whatever's "hidden behind door number 3" will need to be something that we, ourselves, would be willing to accept.
[/quote]

Except demilitarization, right?

[quote]If GRE nations in the lower tier are outnumbered 3:1, tell me how much of a difference 3 nukes and 24 ships really makes if IRON/DAWN is so convinced that GRE will crumble.[/quote]

It does make a difference in the individual battles. One nation with a superior navy and full military improvements can easily handle 3 who are not fully equipped. Although your point is valid if the rules of engagement did not limit to 3 offensive wars, the reality is much different.

[quote]then CnG can and should roll us themselves (as they have no treaty with us and nobody would stop them)[/quote]

Because they're the new moral police? LOL

[quote]On the other hand, it seems to me like many people here are excusing that as a goal so long as it's them doing it to us. Who's the pot and who's the kettle?

They want me to never recover? Sounds very humane of them!
Can't sustain it *forever*, sure. But it's not as if this war is really impeding my growth either.[/quote]

It's not a goal, and no one has said it would be (I find quotes for you, find one for me) they are merely stating that it's possible given your stubbornness.

[Lord Rune]

Paraphrasing from your Codex, Gremlins will not issue terms that Gremlins, themselves would not accept. Would it be too presumptuous to ask what terms Gremlins would find unacceptable?
Would Gremlins find demilitarisation acceptable or unacceptable?
What about Wonders being destroyed?
Or navies, planes and nuclear weapons decommissioned?
Installment of a viceroy?
All future treaties to be agreed by the victorious alliance?
(feel free to add others of your choosing)

I'd really like to know what you, as an alliance, would find unacceptable.

edit; good spelling is a marvelous thing.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Lord Rune

[HellAngel]

Guys, stop acting like they have any decency left. They will clearly elawyer their way around the codex, even if it is clear to everyone Gremlins themselves wouldnt accept unconditional surrender without knowing the real terms.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='05 May 2010 - 05:47 AM' timestamp='1272998802' post='2286572']
Because "white peace" is not an acceptable resolution to me.
[/quote]
Why not?

[Alekhine]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='04 May 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1272981693' post='2286363']
How many folks here think that if/when people like Alekhine running for Grämlins senior government win; they will change the alliance stance on the current situation?

Can we get a pool going regarding this? No sorry electoral candidates you cant bet on this.
[/quote]

Damn, I stood a good chance of winning the pool too...

[shilo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1273003677' post='2286661']
Either we have different history books or you choose not to read yours.
This world has seen demands of wonder deletions, permanent tech farms, disbandment, viceroys and EZI.
[/quote]
That is what you have still not, after over 100 pages here, and about half of it in the other threads, figured out: unconditional surrender is worse

Why? Because it can imply those horrendous terms above, and even worse stuff, with no limit in any way. And the moment unconditional surrender is accepted by us, we accept, agree, comply, affirm with, submit to, fulfill, go along with anything, everything you come up with.

That is what unconditional surrender means, and only this. There is no MPK definition, no gRAMlin definition, just this one.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='04 May 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1273009417' post='2286790']
Why not?
[/quote]
Because his arrogance is blinding him.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='04 May 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1272994736' post='2286527']
Oh [i]come[/i] [b]on[/b]! Is it that hard to believe that I could say something irony-free (get it? IRON-y? ). Seriously though, that quoted sentence was a sarcasm-free.
[/quote]
It's actually getting hard to imagine anyone of even moderate intelligence could post in this thread without a huge dose of sarcasm.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1273003482' post='2286659']
I'm not calling them cowards for staying in PM. I'm saying that if they are serious about their posturing that they heavily outnumber us, and that we are outmatched, then the lie that they're afraid of demilitarizing makes no sense unless they are cowards.
[/quote]

You are calling them cowards for refusing to surrender.

BAAAHHHH THEY WON"T STOP FIGHITING US!!!! WHAT COWARDS!!!!!!

[quote]Furthermore, GRE has no motivation to enact harsh terms; we are in face disincentivized to do so [/quote]

At this point, if you had any sense (it's clear you don't) you would be grabbing white peace while you can. You aren't in a position to be offering *any* terms other than possibly incredibly light token reps. I'm not sure you could get that. A month ago, they would have agreed to reps. (And they tried to.) Now? I doubt it.

[quote]I understand the numbers. I have no desire to "hold them down and bleed them dry" that's merely a consequence; not my goal.
On the other hand, it seems to me like many people here are excusing that as a goal so long as it's them doing it to us. Who's the pot and who's the kettle?[/quote]

As long as Gramlins is yelling "Unconditional Surrender or the war continues", then you don't really have much room to complain about them actually fighting the war. Yes, I know, you think that as long as they fight, they are cowards, and that anyone with any backbone would roll over and become your slaves.

You aren't holding them down and bleeding them dry. They are doing that to your lower tier, and they will continue to drag more and more of you down. This is your own doing. You could have accepted their surrender, their reps, and been at peace, but you refused it and declared that the war would continue until they decided that slavery was better than war. Now you've dug yourself into a very deep hole, and all you do about it is to continue to dig.

[quote]They want me to never recover? Sounds very humane of them!
Can't sustain it *forever*, sure. But it's not as if this war is really impeding my growth either.[/quote]

For now, you (individually) aren't at war, as you are over the NS line. Your time will come, if the war lasts that long. If you come to your senses and agree to end the war, then you won't get drug down that way.

[quote] Better than I deserve? As if I've done something so terribly insidious! [/quote]

Demanding people submit to whatever whims you choose? Yes, that's pretty insidious.

[quote] Here there are an abundance of people telling IRON/DAWN to keep GRE in an eternal war, to give us perma ZI, to force us to disband, to keep us in nuclear anarchy [b]forever[/b] and you're still getting uppity about what we [b]might[/b] do.[/quote]

Wow. You are claiming that you are the victim? IRON declared on you and is keeping you in eternal war? ZIing you?

This war is being fought because you wanted it. IRON has offered white peace. Drop the "OMG, they are keeping us in eternal war" !@#$%^&*.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1273003677' post='2286661']
Either we have different history books or you choose not to read yours.
This world has seen demands of wonder deletions, permanent tech farms, disbandment, viceroys and EZI.
[/quote]

Once you get unconditional surrender, all of those (and more) are options. After all, there are no conditions - at that point, they've agreed to do whatever you want.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1273003846' post='2286665']
No, you're not getting it. I'm not talking about what happens in a war.
I'm talking about what people have proposed as terms for GRE.
[/quote]

The only terms I've seen offered for Gramlins is white peace, which you've thrown back in their face. What we've been talking about (your upper tier slowly getting knocked down into the masses of IRON and kept there) is a direct result of the fact that Gramlins has no intention of agreeing to peace unless they get unconditional surrender, which isn't going to happen.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Baldr

[franciscus]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1273003846' post='2286665']
No, you're not getting it. I'm not talking about what happens in a war.
I'm talking about what people have proposed as terms for GRE.
[/quote]

Gamemaster is right, you're the one not getting it. The single most consistent proposal for terms for Gre I've heard is we offering you unconditional surrender right back. Too bad we're not the lunatics your govt. seems full of, right? But really, thank you for trying hard to make us understand white peace scares the hell outta you. We'll certainly take that into consideration when the time comes.

As for us being afraid of Gre: I'm not afraid of Gre and neither are my allies. I'm afraid of setting a precedent so horrible that our (our, as in everybody's, not just DAWN's or IRON's) entire future on Bob could be changed to worst. If that means I'm a coward, so be it. I'm not looking forward to having the opportunity to ever offering unconditional surrender to my biggest enemy, to the enemy I'd want to see dead and buried, as tempting as that may be. And, most important, I'm not looking forward to giving anyone the opportunity to give such term to any of their worst enemy. I'm sorry you can't see beyond your limitations. I can. And I will do everything in my power to stop such thing from happening. Unconditional surrender is wrong and will be wrong for many years to come.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='04 May 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1273003482' post='2286659']
Furthermore, the terms we do give them after they surrender will conform to the moral standards set forth in our codex.
[/quote]

In light of recent actions by your alliance, what you're claiming here has zero credibility. What can't you understand about that?

[Coursca]

This is still going on?

What a surprise.

I am left to wonder when CnG will start wanting their reparations from IRON and whether that will be the catalyst for the ending of this trainwreck.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='shilo' date='04 May 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1273018817' post='2286994']
That is what you have still not, after over 100 pages here, and about half of it in the other threads, figured out: unconditional surrender is worse

Why? Because it can imply those horrendous terms above, and even worse stuff, with no limit in any way. And the moment unconditional surrender is accepted by us, we accept, agree, comply, affirm with, submit to, fulfill, go along with anything, everything you come up with.

That is what unconditional surrender means, and only this. There is no MPK definition, no gRAMlin definition, just this one.
[/quote]


So you admit that you are afraid of what we [b]might[/b] do as opposed to anything we have actually done?

I have also stated numerous times that if GRE actually demanded you do anything of those things you would tell us to pound sand and you'd be right to do so.
On top of that, the entire cyberverse would have an actual reason to roll us (instead of the speculation presently). It's not like we're in the same position as NPO (and I'm not talking about morally, I'm talking numerically) so we couldn't [b]force[/b] you to do anything of those things. Everybody would attack us and nobody is obligated by treaty to defend us.
So you tell me, who risks more?

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Baldr' date='04 May 2010 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1273041952' post='2287414']
You are calling them cowards for refusing to surrender.

BAAAHHHH THEY WON"T STOP FIGHITING US!!!! WHAT COWARDS!!!!!!
[/quote]
No, I'm calling them cowards for their expressed fear about what GRE [b]might[/b] demand based on the premise that if we were to make any of the demands they claim that we'd never be able to enforce them. And if we did demand something like disbandment and they actually claimed an obligation to comply then they are the [b]worst[/b] cowards.



[quote]At this point, if you had any sense (it's clear you don't) you would be grabbing white peace while you can. You aren't in a position to be offering *any* terms other than possibly incredibly light token reps. I'm not sure you could get that. A month ago, they would have agreed to reps. (And they tried to.) Now? I doubt it.[/quote]

They tried to accept unofficial surrender terms (and a month late, at that).
I'm not interested in white peace, nor am I personally interested in reps. So this is a moot point.



[quote]As long as Gramlins is yelling "Unconditional Surrender or the war continues", then you don't really have much room to complain about them actually fighting the war. Yes, I know, you think that as long as they fight, they are cowards, and that anyone with any backbone would roll over and become your slaves.[/quote]

I'm not complaining about them fighting the war, look back through this thread and tell me who is complaining about the war.
Nor am I calling them cowards for continuing to fight; it's due to their expressed irrational fear of the unknown.


[quote]For now, you (individually) aren't at war, as you are over the NS line. Your time will come, if the war lasts that long. If you come to your senses and agree to end the war, then you won't get drug down that way.[/quote]

When somebody is ready to fight with me I'll be here; I'm willing and ready to get "drug down" for standing up for what I believe in.



[quote]Demanding people submit to whatever whims you choose? Yes, that's pretty insidious.[/quote]

No more insidious than telling POW's to await further instruction. Having them do what you say is not evil, unless what you tell them to do is evil.



[quote]Wow. You are claiming that you are the victim? IRON declared on you and is keeping you in eternal war? ZIing you? This war is being fought because you wanted it. IRON has offered white peace. Drop the "OMG, they are keeping us in eternal war" !@#$%^&*. [/quote]

Reading comprehension. I never said I was a victim. I'm simply outlining that those crying "outrage" to GRE have themselves called for outrageous consequences to be enacted on us. Again, who is the pot and who is the kettle?



[quote]Once you get unconditional surrender, all of those (and more) are options. After all, there are no conditions - at that point, they've agreed to do whatever you want.[/quote]

Already addressed this multiple times. If you want to keep discussing it then you should find a problem with my response.



[quote]The only terms I've seen offered for Gramlins is white peace, which you've thrown back in their face. What we've been talking about (your upper tier slowly getting knocked down into the masses of IRON and kept there) is a direct result of the fact that Gramlins has no intention of agreeing to peace unless they get unconditional surrender, which isn't going to happen.
[/quote]

I've simply said that I'm not interested in white peace. I'd hardly calling that "throwing it back in their face".

[amad123]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='05 May 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1273084795' post='2287822']
So you admit that you are afraid of what we [b]might[/b] do as opposed to anything we have actually done?
[/quote]

No, you don't get it. You have to be in a position of power to create fear. Read this next part very carefully.

We will not allow you to have an "Unconditional Surrender", fear is not involved. You don't get to play the game the way you want. We are withholding it from you. So now what are you going to do about it?

The hole you have dug just gets deeper and deeper.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='amad123' date='05 May 2010 - 12:18 PM' timestamp='1273087106' post='2287864']
No, you don't get it. You have to be in a position of power to create fear. Read this next part very carefully.

We will not allow you to have an "Unconditional Surrender", fear is not involved. You don't get to play the game the way you want. We are withholding it from you. So now what are you going to do about it?

The hole you have dug just gets deeper and deeper.
[/quote]


I do get it.
In fact, your post here makes perfect sense.
You can say that you won't allow us to have "unconditional surrender" and you are withholding it from us... there is no way I could refute that.

But this thread has primarily been about the "evils" of the concept and the fearmongering about what GRE might do with an unconditional surrender; and I can oppose that ridiculous tripe forever because it's nonsense.

You're a sovereign alliance and you can say "no" all day long to our demands, that's less relevant to me.
But you can look just a little higher in the thread and find Shilo himself talking about how terrible unconditional surrender is.

[King Srqt]

This is the absolute most idiotic war I have ever seen, and that is saying something.

IRON does not trust you enough to surrender unconditionally nor should they. Why don't you just do the reasonable thing and sit down and discuss exactly what it will take to end this war and exactly what will be expected to happen after the war's conclusion? Is that really too much to ask?

[Golan 1st]

MPK, you really overestimate yourself. Fear is not what people think of in relation to your gang.
It's more laughter, disgust and pity.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Golan 1st' date='05 May 2010 - 12:42 PM' timestamp='1273088543' post='2287894']
MPK, you really overestimate yourself. Fear is not what people think of in relation to your gang.
It's more laughter, disgust and pity.
[/quote]

Reading comprehension.
People are irrationally afraid of the unknown element, not of GRE.

[Cormalek]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='05 May 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1273089089' post='2287909']
Reading comprehension.
People are irrationally afraid of the unknown element, not of GRE.
[/quote]

I'd like to point out, that most people are not afraid of what Grämlins might do after getting the unconditional surrender. It is the idea of introducing unconditional surrender to Bob politics what scares us.