Rating alliances

[wickedj]

CSN - 4 Need to find their voice more often. Need to stand for what is right behind the scenes as well as in the spotlight.

Stand up for whats right? You mean defending allies in a curbstomp..?

Something else you wanna share with the class because im drawing a blank

[Locke]

Try late July, but w/e semantics I suppose

Debatable. You may have had a treaty, but when the treaty doesn't reflect the relationship (i.e. one side doesn't reciprocate the bond say around, oh, April ), you can hardly be called allies.

[Owned-You]

Stand up for whats right? You mean defending allies in a curbstomp..?

Something else you wanna share with the class because im drawing a blank

I think he means, nobody knows who you are or what you all have really done. Thus, when he says "stand up" he means, be known for doing something worthy of praise rather then doing it quietly then coming off somewhat hostile when a person makes a comment on the relative obscure nature of your alliance.

[Gotterdanaa]

Debatable. You may have had a treaty, but when the treaty doesn't reflect the relationship (i.e. one side doesn't reciprocate the bond say around, oh, April ), you can hardly be called allies.

Which of course was the point of my original post

[Lord Brendan]

I feel i have to speak out here, Grub was put into a particularly awkward situation here, Grub did his best to honor his treaties both sides, and he worked tirelessly through Diplomatic channels in Valhalla defence.

Like with Monos Archein, Rok, TTK, we accepted the side of that war they had to be on, and they accepted ours.

No Valhalla member had an issue with the path Grub had to take, and to be honest, none of us expected him to take another, nor did we feel the treaty was signed with intents on never activating it, and due to all alliances understanding each others position, no one at the time felt that the treaties were being violated, and none of us got Butt-Hurt over the situation.

He was put into an awkward situation or he put himself there? He's stated he had a rough idea of what the sides would be. Therefore he knew that in any war situation large enough for Valhalla to require assistance, Polar would be unable to assist (being a Q member, only a global war could have threatened you). Whether fully intentional or not, the treaty was signed with the knowledge that it was utterly useless except as a NAP and to make Bob Janova do some work.

Your other treaties with Karma alliances are different because you had them long beforehand. I believe all of those listed have been activated at some point (most in WoTC, maybe not TTK?). It's nice that you've been able to get over the fact that you were on opposite sides, but that doesn't change the fact that it was done knowingly, if not deliberately.

[The Pansy]

Valhalla - 5 You seem to have a good community, just shut Pansy up about his Casualties. Casualties are stats too y'know.

Only way Valhalla can shut me up is by giving me more casualties,what with me not being with them since about the start of July

[Delta1212]

There should be some way to destroy a person's casualties.

[potato]

I don't know, having many casualties means you just suck at war.

[Litha Riddle]

I don't know, having many casualties means you just suck at war.

Says the Frenchman

[Ashley Smith]

TOP-0

MHA-0

Sparta-0

NpO-0

IRON-0

ODN-0

FARK-0

GPA-0

NPO-0

FOK-0

MK-0

WTF-0

TOOL-0

TDO-0

VE-0

Legion-0

RoK-0

GATO-1

CSN-0

Athens-0

Gremlins-0

MCXA-0

UPN-0

RIA-0

STA-0

Invicta-0

RnR-0

MASH-0

NADC-0

WAPA-0

NV-0

NSO-0

NEW-0

MA-0

Umbrella-0

FAN-0

LoSS-0

TSO-0

NATO-0

Nordreich-0

GR-0

Vanguard-0

GOD-0

FoB-0

PC-0

Valhalla-0

GGA-0

TPF-0

[Deadshot]

TOP-0

MHA-0

Sparta-0

NpO-0

IRON-0

ODN-0

FARK-0

GPA-0

NPO-0

FOK-0

MK-0

WTF-0

TOOL-0

TDO-0

VE-0

Legion-0

RoK-0

GATO-1

CSN-0

Athens-0

Gremlins-0

MCXA-0

UPN-0

RIA-0

STA-0

Invicta-0

RnR-0

MASH-0

NADC-0

WAPA-0

NV-0

NSO-0

NEW-0

MA-0

Umbrella-0

FAN-0

LoSS-0

TSO-0

NATO-0

Nordreich-0

GR-0

Vanguard-0

GOD-0

FoB-0

PC-0

Valhalla-0

GGA-0

TPF-0

u mad

(sorry MK, had to do it)

[AlmightyGrub]

He was put into an awkward situation or he put himself there? He's stated he had a rough idea of what the sides would be. Therefore he knew that in any war situation large enough for Valhalla to require assistance, Polar would be unable to assist (being a Q member, only a global war could have threatened you). Whether fully intentional or not, the treaty was signed with the knowledge that it was utterly useless except as a NAP and to make Bob Janova do some work.

Your other treaties with Karma alliances are different because you had them long beforehand. I believe all of those listed have been activated at some point (most in WoTC, maybe not TTK?). It's nice that you've been able to get over the fact that you were on opposite sides, but that doesn't change the fact that it was done knowingly, if not deliberately.

I will once again state your opinion is meaningless to me (wickedj is cool and all but CSN does not appear on my RADAR at all) but seeing how you wish to keep addressing me, I guess I am obligated to respond in some way. My response to your nonsense (yes nonsense, provocative nonsense with a deliberate motive) is as follows.

If only life was truly that simple you would look like a genius right now, unfortunately the opposite is quite true. Your assumption is that I would not defend Valhalla, seems like a rather big jump right there. I think you need to have an actual look at the treaties we signed with everyone when we ''re-emerged''. During Karma I would think absolutely zero of them actually activated. If someone had attacked Valhalla, I would have gladly defended Valhalla or indeed anyone in that situation. The reason Valhalla doesn't have a great issue with me is exactly that. We were clear where the boundaries lay right at the very beginning. We would not chain our way into anything, especially if you started it.

If you look at all our allies and all our treaties at the time, you will notice that every single one of those alliances willingly declared war. For the hidden e-lawyers, that meant to us that when you do so, we are not obligated to assist you. The NPO willingly rolled tanks against OV, thats their issue and their call to make. Likewise GR, NV STA and everyone else decided to get themselves some action and jump in. More power to them, but our obligations ended right there.

Whether we would have joined if we did not have so many direct conflicts is entirely another matter. If we did not have a treaty with the NPO or Valhalla maybe we could have easily slipped the boot into someone we didn't like as so many of you availed yourselves of and blatantly so. We chose not to take that option, when the NpO rolls for the next time it will be because we believe we have to and not just because it is convenient to do so. The curbstomp we endured taught us some harsh lessons, apparently we needed to learn them the hard way, so it more than amuses me when people start suggesting we should have forgotten what we took out of the SPW and abandon it readily for a bit of cheap action. Spare me the self righteous indignation, I am up to my neck in it .

I said at the time, I do not support Karma, and that is still very true today. I do however recognize what the effort accomplished, but I am not sure the price paid won't come back to haunt some of you over and over.

tl:dr. Polaris will always defend her allies and to suggest otherwise is stupid. Just try us out if you have any doubts. The reason the NpO was miscalculated from both sides is quite simple, we set the rules, you need to follow the bouncing ball to be able to play along.

[Goldie]

i think a lot of the smack talking here is pretty funny. not everyone had a clear entrance into war like VE did, some people actually had treaties on both sides or were only attached through friends of friends. shouldnt cast judgement that some people decided to chain their treaties, and some people didnt. who are we all to decide if other alliances valued some friends over others, or if some alliances valued all of their friends on both sides enough to not get involved.

[Marty McFly]

Honestly, about January or February. Blind Freddy could see what was happening and only drastic action would have changed the fate, drastic action that was advised and ignored.. c'est la vie. I find it completely and totally misleading to suggest that Karma was only formed in the immediate lead up to the war and always have especially considering the logs, spreadsheets etc that were circulating months and months before.(no you can not have my copies). It amuses me to no end that those spreadsheets from early in the year turned out to basically be 100% correct, except for a few notable exception such as NpO who I saw drafted on both sides at various times.

I know I have suggested this all before and been shouted down by the ''karma leadership'' but I know what I knew and when I knew it and to suggest it was all done quickly in response to OV makes me giggle like a school girl. The final plans may have been thrown together, but the deliberate bait set for the NPO on at least two previous occasions along with the extensive pre-planning and polling made the transition to actual bloc and war fairly smooth I would have thought. The revisionists would forget how many times I was asked which side I was on and for how long. You suggest there were no sides until OV, I again giggle, what was I joining then?

In reference to our entrance to the Karma War, you will note that the DoW was not posted by me , so I wont be attempting to explain the rationale behind it. It is suffice to say however, Tyga is correct, as he more than often is in these matters. The NSO requested help defending from something or other and we did so. The fact that STA and NSO were in the same conflict makes it all quite a matter of semantics. ML declared war on us, so eventually we fought them. Our only declaration was on DOOM and the reasons thereof are inexplicable in real terms ( I will not be attempting to justify them at all in case you are terminally slow)

Grub is right about the spreadsheets and logs. Someone I knew in Vox shared them with me as early as february and they were almost perfect in terms of the sides. People had been actively planning the demise of the NPO for that particular conflict for a while.

[Drai]

I don't know, having many casualties means you just suck at war.

Bring it

[scythegfx]

TOP-0

MHA-0

Sparta-0

NpO-0

IRON-0

ODN-0

FARK-0

GPA-0

NPO-0

FOK-0

MK-0

WTF-0

TOOL-0

TDO-0

VE-0

Legion-0

RoK-0

GATO-1

CSN-0

Athens-0

Gremlins-0

MCXA-0

UPN-0

RIA-0

STA-0

Invicta-0

RnR-0

MASH-0

NADC-0

WAPA-0

NV-0

NSO-0

NEW-0

MA-0

Umbrella-0

FAN-0

LoSS-0

TSO-0

NATO-0

Nordreich-0

GR-0

Vanguard-0

GOD-0

FoB-0

PC-0

Valhalla-0

GGA-0

TPF-0

you should quit if you hate everyone that much, you bitter, bitter, human being.

[wickedj]

If someone had attacked Valhalla, I would have gladly defended Valhalla or indeed anyone in that situation

Am i mistaken in remembering both Fark and RIA declared on Valhalla?

[Gopherbashi]

Am i mistaken in remembering both Fark and RIA declared on Valhalla?

I imagine that would be under the chaining clause mentioned earlier.

[Buds The Man]

A most interesting claim by yourself. Personally, I would agree that the sides for the Karma War were fairly predictable; a list I made sometime around January was accurate but for one or two mistakes. At least there's one point we can agree on.

Let's say for the sake of the argument that in mid-January, you had a roughly accurate idea of what the sides would be in the inevitable showdown with the New Pacific Order. Nothing all that special about that. However, something else happened around then: Polar was released from surrender terms, meaning you didn't yet have any treaties yet. All the treaties you held at the time of the Karma War were signed within a ~3 month span preceding the war.

That includes MDoAPs with STA, Valhalla, Nueva Vida, Genesis, NPO and Ragnarok. All this with a roughly accurate idea of who the combatants would be in the upcoming war. You might not have been certain for a few fence-sitters, but obviously you knew where central figures such as NPO and Valhalla would end up. Obviously STA would stick with MK, and as the above poster so kindly highlights, STA was your #1 priority. Other figures such as Ragnarok and NV further bound you to what would become Karma.

Do you admit then that you signed treaties with NPO and Valhalla with the knowledge that you would be unable to honor them when the time came?

NVM grub put it well

I feel i have to speak out here, Grub was put into a particularly awkward situation here, Grub did his best to honor his treaties both sides, and he worked tirelessly through Diplomatic channels in Valhalla defence.

Like with Monos Archein, Rok, TTK, we accepted the side of that war they had to be on, and they accepted ours.

No Valhalla member had an issue with the path Grub had to take, and to be honest, none of us expected him to take another, nor did we feel the treaty was signed with intents on never activating it, and due to all alliances understanding each others position, no one at the time felt that the treaties were being violated, and none of us got Butt-Hurt over the situation.

This man speaks volumes of truth

Am i mistaken in remembering both Fark and RIA declared on Valhalla?

You bet they did after we went agressive in defense of TPF on PC which brought Kronos and Umbrella on to us. Not sure how RIA got there but I would imagine as the first 3 alliances are all top heavy they needed a bit of help to hit the few smaller nations we had. We understood NpOs stance and respected it then and still do today. Really you guys are trying to make something out of nothing Polar was very clear and upfront from the start. Take it from those who were there your argument just does not float here.

[Penkala]

Honestly, about January or February. Blind Freddy could see what was happening and only drastic action would have changed the fate, drastic action that was advised and ignored.. c'est la vie. I find it completely and totally misleading to suggest that Karma was only formed in the immediate lead up to the war and always have especially considering the logs, spreadsheets etc that were circulating months and months before.(no you can not have my copies). It amuses me to no end that those spreadsheets from early in the year turned out to basically be 100% correct, except for a few notable exception such as NpO who I saw drafted on both sides at various times.

I know I have suggested this all before and been shouted down by the ''karma leadership'' but I know what I knew and when I knew it and to suggest it was all done quickly in response to OV makes me giggle like a school girl. The final plans may have been thrown together, but the deliberate bait set for the NPO on at least two previous occasions along with the extensive pre-planning and polling made the transition to actual bloc and war fairly smooth I would have thought. The revisionists would forget how many times I was asked which side I was on and for how long. You suggest there were no sides until OV, I again giggle, what was I joining then?

In reference to our entrance to the Karma War, you will note that the DoW was not posted by me , so I wont be attempting to explain the rationale behind it. It is suffice to say however, Tyga is correct, as he more than often is in these matters. The NSO requested help defending from something or other and we did so. The fact that STA and NSO were in the same conflict makes it all quite a matter of semantics. ML declared war on us, so eventually we fought them. Our only declaration was on DOOM and the reasons thereof are inexplicable in real terms ( I will not be attempting to justify them at all in case you are terminally slow)

It was less that and more of us all knowing how NPO operates - isolate and destroy any groups that could pose a threat to them. And we weren't going to let it happen again. As an author of many of the spreadsheets you've seen that's quite simply the truth - too many people got tired of NPO's tactics working. It's hardly "planning NPO's downfall" - it's planning for the defense of yourself. As far as timelines... mid-October most people began worrying about what was going on. In December, a lot of alliances began ramping up military prep, warchest minimums, etc. In mid-late January "Karma" gained the advantage. In March, projections were showing "Karma" with 15% more nations and 20% more NS than the Hegemony, but that included some awful large assumptions including TOP being Karma and NpO siding with Karma or going neutral.

Edit: to expand, I know many Karma gov members maintain that there was no planning. That's mostly true. And I can see why they just say "lol, no." Because frankly the I-Am-Being-Persecuted-Because-I'm-Hegemony players will twist what I just said into premeditated plans to attack the NPO. That's why I've never publicly been open about the above before - yes, leaders anticipated the war and planned as comprehensive a defensive plan as possible. That's it. Until a couple months before the war we were even or losing. We weren't 'planning' anything except defense should NPO attack. NPO attacked, of course, proving pretty much everyone right, and those defensive plans were put into action - essentially, circle the wagons.

Of course NPO will continue on spewing their lies about protecting their sovereignty. We know what the war was about. We don't just think we know, mind you, we have evidence and proof that we're right. NPO tried their games again, and this time the Cyberverse was ready. Frankly, Grub, what you said about 'bait' being set is 100% !@#$%^&*. If by 'bait' you mean circling the wagons and preparing for NPO to inevitably try to isolate and destroy one bloc or group of alliances, yeah, you're right, we were totally 'baiting.' We weren't going to let any more alliances be rolled alone. We were done with that game.

Edit: 2/21 showed 'Karma' with ~24,000,000 more NS than NPO but that included TOP's 12,000,000 NS so really 'Karma' was only about 12,000,000 NS ahead.

. The fact is, people were predicting a grand come-uppance for NPO pretty much for the entire lifespan of Continuum, and the fact that that did actually come about in the end doesn't mean that the people predicting it 'knew what was coming' before anything was coming. Even the day before the war started, things could have happened very differently.

I knew it was coming

NPO had become predictable in its actions and it was that predictability that lead to its strategy not working on that fateful evening. If even I could see it coming then many of the much brighter people than me saw it coming too.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Penkala

[Cataduanes]

I don't know, having many casualties means you just suck at war.

I have to disagree, having a decent casualty count simply means that the nation in question was in the trenches, pulling its weight so to speak

[AlmightyGrub]

It was less that and more of us all knowing how NPO operates - isolate and destroy any groups that could pose a threat to them. And we weren't going to let it happen again. As an author of many of the spreadsheets you've seen that's quite simply the truth - too many people got tired of NPO's tactics working. It's hardly "planning NPO's downfall" - it's planning for the defense of yourself. As far as timelines... mid-October most people began worrying about what was going on. In December, a lot of alliances began ramping up military prep, warchest minimums, etc. In mid-late January "Karma" gained the advantage. In March, projections were showing "Karma" with 15% more nations and 20% more NS than the Hegemony, but that included some awful large assumptions including TOP being Karma and NpO siding with Karma or going neutral.

When you set out to detail a massive conflict in the terms that became Karma, you are planning. Whether it is a contingency or an option play is irrelevant, it is a plan. ''The !@#$ has got to stop!!" (actual quote I believe) means something more than we are going to lie here and wait for some other object to be stuffed up our fundamental orifice by the NPO. It implies a proactive stand and proactive planning. BTW, I do not think there is anything at wrong with that. I am always looking ahead a long way in this game, but to continually try to sell the Karma effort as an ad hoc thrown together coalition... that just happens to be exactly the same as the preparations that were clearly in place... doesn't seem to be a mere coincidence.

Edit: to expand, I know many Karma gov members maintain that there was no planning. That's mostly true. And I can see why they just say "lol, no." Because frankly the I-Am-Being-Persecuted-Because-I'm-Hegemony players will twist what I just said into premeditated plans to attack the NPO. That's why I've never publicly been open about the above before - yes, leaders anticipated the war and planned as comprehensive a defensive plan as possible. That's it. Until a couple months before the war we were even or losing. We weren't 'planning' anything except defense should NPO attack. NPO attacked, of course, proving pretty much everyone right, and those defensive plans were put into action - essentially, circle the wagons.

Mostly true is not true. I will still maintain there was an active agenda to proactively resist the NPO's machinations at every turn and that said resolve was made in the early months of 2009.

Of course NPO will continue on spewing their lies about protecting their sovereignty. We know what the war was about. We don't just think we know, mind you, we have evidence and proof that we're right. NPO tried their games again, and this time the Cyberverse was ready.

You were ready because you had planned to be ready. You had your proverbial ducks in a row and you were lying in wait for several weeks waiting for the trigger. I have no issues with that at all, you did not want to be the aggressors, that's fine, but it does not mitigate the fact that you were ready, ready and waiting.

Frankly, Grub, what you said about 'bait' being set is 100% !@#$%^&*. If by 'bait' you mean circling the wagons and preparing for NPO to inevitably try to isolate and destroy one bloc or group of alliances, yeah, you're right, we were totally 'baiting.' We weren't going to let any more alliances be rolled alone. We were done with that game.

By bait, I mean exactly that. There were several active attempts to get Karma rolling prior to the OV debacle, whether it was Karma or a chameleon of another colour. Lets be entirely honest here, you guys were waiting for the trigger point, you knew the NPO would react to something eventually but once you are ready and waiting, you need it to happen or everyone loses interest.

I will not dispute that the NPO made this one a no brainer in your eyes, they attacked during negotiations that were being conducted in good faith you say and so it was simple to raise the alarm. I am not for one minute going to suggest to you that the NPO did not make an awful mistake with OV, TORN and so forth..but they would have made another mistake and pai the same price at some stage... because you were ready for them. Effectively you had said enough is enough, the next move they make we are kicking their faces in.

Edit: 2/21 showed 'Karma' with ~24,000,000 more NS than NPO but that included TOP's 12,000,000 NS so really 'Karma' was only about 12,000,000 NS ahead.

I knew it was coming

NPO had become predictable in its actions and it was that predictability that lead to its strategy not working on that fateful evening. If even I could see it coming then many of the much brighter people than me saw it coming too.

I believe even the NPO saw the inevitable, if even they could see it I don't understand why it is denied over and over.

[Penkala]

I hardly consider ensuring our survival to be 'planning the Karma war', though I can't really disagree with anything you individually said in your last message I find that to be a bit of a stretch. 'Planning for Karma' gives people the illusion of dozens of alliances plotting in dark, smoky back-rooms to attack NPO and end them. It was more of "let's be realistic, NPO's coming for us. How can we have the best chance of survival?"

I just don't want anyone getting the wrong ideas - if NPO had never ever come for us then we'd be all fine and dandy, it wasn't some plan to kill NPO off, just to defend ourselves. That's all I'm sayin'.

[rsoxbronco1]

Should it be considered "planning" for the Karma war that as we went into the NoCB War I (and probably others) thought, "If we get out of this in one piece there's going to be a round 2."? I just don't understand the argument that we somehow planned/orchestrated the Karma war when all we did was react to the Hegemony starting it.

My thoughts on the matter from earlier this evening:

[01:47] <rsoxbronco1|Athens> we only plot against the people we never end up attacking

[01:47] <rsoxbronco1|Athens> the wars we have fought pop up on short notice

[01:47] <rsoxbronco1|Athens> it's a great injustice

Sad, but true.

[shahenshah]

Honestly, about January or February. Blind Freddy could see what was happening and only drastic action would have changed the fate, drastic action that was advised and ignored.. c'est la vie.

Well said.

As a general member, Just by reading OWF alot of things were fairly obvious unless off-course we were all born yesterday and still have not developed basic human intelligence. Freddy might be blind, but he's not stupid.