Joint Echelon, MCXA, NPO, NADC, and UBD Announcement

[Wu Tang Clan]

As the guy who came up with the idea for BLEU I can authoritatively state that you have no idea what you are talking about.

My intention, and that of the rest of Polar, was to finally fix the blue team. We succeeded, at least for a while. Agora sought only to divide and isolate, the Pacifican Modus Operandi.

Random. No. You are clouding his propaganda with fact and truth. You are making a fool of him. Quit that.

It's about time?

o/ BLEU

[Sandwich Controversy]

BLEU was an abomination that abused its power against innocent alliances on multiple occasions, but at least they did something for sphere unity, unlike Agora. Good riddance.

[Teriethien]

BLEU always did sound better anyway.

[Francesca]

Really ? Gosh, you played such an important role in a Bloc that has been dead for over 2 months. But it was only announced today.

I didn't say I played an important role, I said I knew first-hand exactly how useless Agora was for trades, especially relating to MCXA.

[maicke]

haha, what a glorious day!

*waits for the reformation of BLEU announcement*

[Drai]

Glad to see that the signatories recognized this bloc wasn't working out.

Hope things go well from here.

[Owned-You]

Being a former BLEU Leader, this is sweet to taste tonight.

[Lusitan]

This was the official announcement HERE. It was met with much cynicism despite the spin by those involved. It achieved nothing in the terms of unity amongst blue alliances. Shame on those who took the soft option and expected they were protected by NPO by signing it instead of seeking to improve BLEU. It was already dead and buried to many blue alliances from when the announcement of it was made. This announcement confirms nothing but what we thought from day one.

I seriously doubt you know the motives why each of the original signatories placed their names in the Agora Accords

Agora was actually intended to produce economic benefit for its signatories, that was the sole purpose of the signatories who had left BLEU (full treaty or economic pact) for different reasons. There was also a naive expectation when it was created that remnanents of BLEU would eventually join it and there could be some blue unity. NPO's presence and the (probable) NpO differences with the MCXA of the time didn't allow it, but I'll get there later.

The truth is, there was an intention to create an economic bloc who could also control the Team Senate. Protection wasn't that much of a preocupation, because signatories were all treatied among themselves via MDoAPs in general, and those who weren't treatied directly to NPO were protected by the now defunct Möbius Accords due to being connected to MCXA. So, saying the treaty was signed for Protection doesn't make sense.

Personally, I placed my name on those Accords simply because I was interested in the project. To a point, TFD was kept aside in most of BLEU affairs. We wanted to take part but we didn't have and weren't given the opportunity. This is not a critic to BLEU, as our progression in BLEU made perfect sense from an application and growth by effort point of view. Agora was the opportunity we had to be part of a large project, opportunity we didn't have before. The idea alone seduced me, I admit.

As for NPO's role, while many like to think NPO was there giving us instructions on the hostile takeover of the Blue Sphere, that's simply not true. You have my word, whatever the value you wish to give it, NPO never mentioned, talked or said anything that concerned the Blue sphere - except NpO's possible admission into Agora, for obvious reasons - at least that I saw as TFD liason to Agora. Had they done such thing, I'd have been the first to request near TFD's Senate the resignation from the Agora Accords. No, the only thing I saw NPO doing in Agora besides discussing CN politics (and they didn't even discuss them that much) was trying to engage in a long-term tech deal scheme with UBD. Nonetheless, NPO's presence was a mistake, in the sense that it deterred other alliances from joining the bloc - even though how many would join having issues with MCXA is another question.

While I am at it, I'll explain why and where Agora failed economically. I suppose I am partially responsible for its failure, as it was me who designed both Tech and Trade systems. The Trade system was a good system, I like to think, but you can judge that yourselves. The plan was simple, there was a google docs list where each alliance would upload the names and resources of their nations. On the human front, each allliance would supply a Trade Circle engineer to work on a 6-men team (NPO was left out, as we didn't build Red Team circles) who would pick up the resources requests, combine them, search for the missing and create Trade Circle. Later, with the addition of UBD and IDC it was supposed to be expaned to 8-person team. Why did it fail? Well, mostly human causes. ICENI and LoSS, for example, never supplied anyone to work in there. Essentially lack of commitment from all signatories. Eventually, its control was handed to MCXA members at the time, who had more people working in the section. It was never fully functional, but it's efficiency dropped with the time and it was dealt the final blow with the formation of TSO, as most people who still did something in there departed then. I also recall talking with Skingrad, who at the time was member of MCXA, that they were also having a problem on most of people needing trades having furs as resources, but I am unsure how bad the problem was

The tech part had a conceptional problem from the start. Before the War of the Coalition, TFD sold several tenths of thousands of units of tech to both MCXA and NpO. They would give us the names of the nations receiving the tech, and we'd give them the names of the nations receiving the money - as opposed to just redirecting sellers to them or a free for all system like the one that existed in BLEU. I based my system proposal on that experience. Basically there was a forum where an alliance wishing to sell whatever ammount of tech would place a thread saying they had "X ammount of tech to sell". Then an alliance interested to buy would post in there stating their interest to acquire said tech, and therefore business could be done more immediatelly, and to a point in a more organized fashion. Each alliance would manage the process at home, where they held the control, and the "business" part would happen at Agora forums. It was essentially a place where alliances could advertise the Tech they wanted to sell or wanted to buy. It failed gloriously. None of the initial signatories could sell tech or was interested in doing it then for strategic reasons - such as maintenance of a tech source back up, read protectionism. UBD's entrance brought us some hope, but then they ran short on sellers as well. As the tech seller alliances of Blue Team would refuse invitations due to loyalties to former signatories of BLEU, as the NpO would refuse invitations without the inclusion of the other former BLEU signatories, and as the other former BLEU signatories wouldn't want to join Agora due to NPO presence (and any other reasons they had), fixing the Tech section of Agora was no more in our hands. TFD still had in plans a rescue plan for Agora's tech market (which was also profitable for TFD) but for logistical and internal reasons it didn't go ahead.

By then, we were still able to hold two Senate seats based on equal parts on our collective effort and the room other blue alliances were giving to us. The collective effort was mostly lead by MCXA, and when TSO formed, it just died. Efforts were made to revive it, but they failed and with Tech, Trade and Senate dead, there was no point for Agora to exist.

Excuse me the wall of text

[x Tela x]

Random. No. You are clouding his propaganda with fact and truth. You are making a fool of him. Quit that.

It's about time?

o/ BLEU

I think you missed a couple cliches. Have a mind of your own? Use it.

Random, whatever the intention initially was, both Sponge and Assington (With help from all of BLEU) twisted it to fit their own agenda. I won't defend Agora and call it a bastion of security and stability for the blue sphere. That's a little far fetched of an argument, even for me. BLEU had a lot of potential, and still does, if they stay on their current course, but for a long time BLEU was nothing more than a Polaris powerbase that was used to further Polaris' own agenda.

I believe you completely when you say that BLEU was created to bring stability and good will to the sphere - I was right there from the start. The bloc itself very quickly shifted from economics to military, though. All of the blame for that can't be laid solely on the lap of Polaris, but they were certainly the driving force in most military moves that BLEU made as a bloc, most of them aggressive in nature and many of them unjust.

[teamcoltra]

I seriously doubt you know the motives why each of the original signatories placed their names in the Agora Accords

Agora was actually intended to produce economic benefit for its signatories, that was the sole purpose of the signatories who had left BLEU (full treaty or economic pact) for different reasons. There was also a naive expectation when it was created that remnanents of BLEU would eventually join it and there could be some blue unity. NPO's presence and the (probable) NpO differences with the MCXA of the time didn't allow it, but I'll get there later.

The truth is, there was an intention to create an economic bloc who could also control the Team Senate. Protection wasn't that much of a preocupation, because signatories were all treatied among themselves via MDoAPs in general, and those who weren't treatied directly to NPO were protected by the now defunct Möbius Accords due to being connected to MCXA. So, saying the treaty was signed for Protection doesn't make sense.

Personally, I placed my name on those Accords simply because I was interested in the project. To a point, TFD was kept aside in most of BLEU affairs. We wanted to take part but we didn't have and weren't given the opportunity. This is not a critic to BLEU, as our progression in BLEU made perfect sense from an application and growth by effort point of view. Agora was the opportunity we had to be part of a large project, opportunity we didn't have before. The idea alone seduced me, I admit.

As for NPO's role, while many like to think NPO was there giving us instructions on the hostile takeover of the Blue Sphere, that's simply not true. You have my word, whatever the value you wish to give it, NPO never mentioned, talked or said anything that concerned the Blue sphere - except NpO's possible admission into Agora, for obvious reasons - at least that I saw as TFD liason to Agora. Had they done such thing, I'd have been the first to request near TFD's Senate the resignation from the Agora Accords. No, the only thing I saw NPO doing in Agora besides discussing CN politics (and they didn't even discuss them that much) was trying to engage in a long-term tech deal scheme with UBD. Nonetheless, NPO's presence was a mistake, in the sense that it deterred other alliances from joining the bloc - even though how many would join having issues with MCXA is another question.

While I am at it, I'll explain why and where Agora failed economically. I suppose I am partially responsible for its failure, as it was me who designed both Tech and Trade systems. The Trade system was a good system, I like to think, but you can judge that yourselves. The plan was simple, there was a google docs list where each alliance would upload the names and resources of their nations. On the human front, each allliance would supply a Trade Circle engineer to work on a 6-men team (NPO was left out, as we didn't build Red Team circles) who would pick up the resources requests, combine them, search for the missing and create Trade Circle. Later, with the addition of UBD and IDC it was supposed to be expaned to 8-person team. Why did it fail? Well, mostly human causes. ICENI and LoSS, for example, never supplied anyone to work in there. Essentially lack of commitment from all signatories. Eventually, its control was handed to MCXA members at the time, who had more people working in the section. It was never fully functional, but it's efficiency dropped with the time and it was dealt the final blow with the formation of TSO, as most people who still did something in there departed then. I also recall talking with Skingrad, who at the time was member of MCXA, that they were also having a problem on most of people needing trades having furs as resources, but I am unsure how bad the problem was

The tech part had a conceptional problem from the start. Before the War of the Coalition, TFD sold several tenths of thousands of units of tech to both MCXA and NpO. They would give us the names of the nations receiving the tech, and we'd give them the names of the nations receiving the money - as opposed to just redirecting sellers to them or a free for all system like the one that existed in BLEU. I based my system proposal on that experience. Basically there was a forum where an alliance wishing to sell whatever ammount of tech would place a thread saying they had "X ammount of tech to sell". Then an alliance interested to buy would post in there stating their interest to acquire said tech, and therefore business could be done more immediatelly, and to a point in a more organized fashion. Each alliance would manage the process at home, where they held the control, and the "business" part would happen at Agora forums. It was essentially a place where alliances could advertise the Tech they wanted to sell or wanted to buy. It failed gloriously. None of the initial signatories could sell tech or was interested in doing it then for strategic reasons - such as maintenance of a tech source back up, read protectionism. UBD's entrance brought us some hope, but then they ran short on sellers as well. As the tech seller alliances of Blue Team would refuse invitations due to loyalties to former signatories of BLEU, as the NpO would refuse invitations without the inclusion of the other former BLEU signatories, and as the other former BLEU signatories wouldn't want to join Agora due to NPO presence (and any other reasons they had), fixing the Tech section of Agora was no more in our hands. TFD still had in plans a rescue plan for Agora's tech market (which was also profitable for TFD) but for logistical and internal reasons it didn't go ahead.

By then, we were still able to hold two Senate seats based on equal parts on our collective effort and the room other blue alliances were giving to us. The collective effort was mostly lead by MCXA, and when TSO formed, it just died. Efforts were made to revive it, but they failed and with Tech, Trade and Senate dead, there was no point for Agora to exist.

Excuse me the wall of text

Very true facts, and the problem is agora really never carried out what it was supposed to be for.

<3 it wouldn't be lusitan post if it wasn't a wall of text

[empirica]

I think you missed a couple cliches. Have a mind of your own? Use it.

Random, whatever the intention initially was, both Sponge and Assington (With help from all of BLEU) twisted it to fit their own agenda. I won't defend Agora and call it a bastion of security and stability for the blue sphere. That's a little far fetched of an argument, even for me. BLEU had a lot of potential, and still does, if they stay on their current course, but for a long time BLEU was nothing more than a Polaris powerbase that was used to further Polaris' own agenda.

I believe you completely when you say that BLEU was created to bring stability and good will to the sphere - I was right there from the start. The bloc itself very quickly shifted from economics to military, though. All of the blame for that can't be laid solely on the lap of Polaris, but they were certainly the driving force in most military moves that BLEU made as a bloc, most of them aggressive in nature and many of them unjust.

BLEU didn't appear to be a powerbase for Polaris at the time Genesis joined as a full member. I also don't recall NpO representatives being the only ones who made aggressive posts. We were all friends, and we were often all cavalier in how we expressed points, because we knew our friends weren't thin skinned enough to be offended by blunt manners.

I also don't recall Echelon trying to vote against any wars undertaken by BLEU. BLEU was a pretty democratic bloc, nobody's voice was ignored. The good of BLEU was shared by all, as was the bad. Trying to lay it all or even mostly on Polaris, when each alliance had an equal vote, is unjust.

[SirDog]

Lusitan, if Agora "was actually intended to produce economic benefit for its signatories" as you put it then;

III. Military Cooperation

A. Should any signatories find themselves in a defensive war, they may request political, economic, and military assistance from the other signatories. B. This agreement highly encourages those other signatories to come to the defense of the attacked signatory. C. Any signatory may request assistance in any sort of military matter with 48 hours notice, however that assistance is not mandatory.

indicates that this is more than just an economic bloc. You may have been tied via treaties already but this just ensures that that military bloc is strengthened. Also it would have bound new alliances who joined to honour Article III. Hence the cynicism it received that it was not purely an economic bloc and why NPO was a co-signatory. You stated that NPO being involved was a mistake and I have to agree with you. And to say I don't know the intentions of the co-signatories is true, however, to limit it to just stating that they were excited about building an new economic bloc for blue is shallow considering the inclusion of Article III coupled by NPO's presence.

But it's dead now.

[Thierra]

Lusitan, if Agora "was actually intended to produce economic benefit for its signatories" as you put it then;

indicates that this is more than just an economic bloc. You may have been tied via treaties already but this just ensures that that military bloc is strengthened. Also it would have bound new alliances who joined to honour Article III. Hence the cynicism it received that it was not purely an economic bloc and why NPO was a co-signatory. You stated that NPO being involved was a mistake and I have to agree with you. And to say I don't know the intentions of the co-signatories is true, however, to limit it to just stating that they were excited about building an new economic bloc for blue is shallow considering the inclusion of Article III coupled by NPO's presence.

But it's dead now.

I don't think it was the bad PR or who was in it that detracted from its ability to succeed... it's that alliances didn't make a strong enough effort to fulfill the economic portions of it. It seems like the only people that benefited from the treaty at all were alliances that paired off and started doing economic agreements with each other instead of with the entire body.

Essentially, for a few short months, Agora was a huge singles bar for lonely alliances.

[Doitzel]

This is surprising. I was not expecting the failure of this organisation when you had to bring in a big player from off-team to give it legitimacy and stability.

[He Who Has No Name]

I have an honest question.

What did this economic bloc actually do? Did it ever actually DO anything?

I don't recall ever hearing a thing about it except the announcement.

Edited June 7, 2009 by He Who Has No Name

[Doitzel]

I have an honest question.

What did this economic bloc actually do? Did it ever actually DO anything?

I don't recall ever hearing a thing about it except the announcement.

It pissed a lot of people off, which was its intent I believe. Overall I think it can go down in the books as a huge success, don't you?

[RossGarner]

BLEU didn't appear to be a powerbase for Polaris at the time Genesis joined as a full member. I also don't recall NpO representatives being the only ones who made aggressive posts. We were all friends, and we were often all cavalier in how we expressed points, because we knew our friends weren't thin skinned enough to be offended by blunt manners.

I also don't recall Echelon trying to vote against any wars undertaken by BLEU. BLEU was a pretty democratic bloc, nobody's voice was ignored. The good of BLEU was shared by all, as was the bad. Trying to lay it all or even mostly on Polaris, when each alliance had an equal vote, is unjust.

Each alliance had representatives to the bloc; but the old government of the NpO misused the trust we all had in them to lead the bloc to war against NADC.

[Reachwind]

Each alliance had representatives to the bloc; but the old government of the NpO misused the trust we all had in them to lead the bloc to war against NADC.

LOL.

Yeah that's totally how it happened all right. Those NpO bastages tricked us!!1!1!

No, not really.

[FreddieMercury]

Lusitan, if Agora "was actually intended to produce economic benefit for its signatories" as you put it then;

indicates that this is more than just an economic bloc. You may have been tied via treaties already but this just ensures that that military bloc is strengthened. Also it would have bound new alliances who joined to honour Article III. Hence the cynicism it received that it was not purely an economic bloc and why NPO was a co-signatory. You stated that NPO being involved was a mistake and I have to agree with you. And to say I don't know the intentions of the co-signatories is true, however, to limit it to just stating that they were excited about building an new economic bloc for blue is shallow considering the inclusion of Article III coupled by NPO's presence.

But it's dead now.

You realize "highly encouraged" is in the wording of alot of ODP clauses right? I know NADC's ODP treaty template has that wording, which might explain why it's in Agora's, but it doesn't mean crap. Just like PIATs' "high" encouragement of the sharing of intelligence.

I mean, I think it's interesting how NPO's made larger than life, even after it's current defeat. I mean ghee, I'd be disappointed in NPO trying to control the blue sphere using language such as "highly suggesting". NPO creating NpO, now that was a plan to step behind.

Blue's not gonna be truely unified for awhile with the divisions created in the BLEU era circa WoTC and wars like NADC-BLEU, Agora was a product of it; not of NPO's half baked plan to enslave blue (for the 2nd time).

[Joe Stupid]

It pissed a lot of people off, which was its intent I believe. Overall I think it can go down in the books as a huge success, don't you?

Clearly this was one of the most well thought out and executed economic blocs in the history of cybernations. It's goals were clearly established, and blue unity was achieved as soon as it first set sail. The Blue sphere would be in shambles today if it wasn't for Agora.

[Earogema]

Fantastic. Took a bit, but we got there.

[x Tela x]

LOL.

Yeah that's totally how it happened all right. Those NpO bastages tricked us!!1!1!

No, not really.

Reachwind, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Assington flat out lied to all of BLEU when asked about evidence of NADC spying, and he lied to his membership as well.

We're going to war with NADC within the week, likely on the 28th or 29th.

Whilst we currently do not have any tangible evidence supporting their involvement in the spy operations, we now know it to be a fact. At this point I don't care if the rest of CN doesn't think we are justified, it's going to happen anyway.

I would ask that every please begin preparations for this as we are going to unleash hell on them for this.

We have the support of NPO, IRON, GGA and no doubt BLEU so this won't be difficult to clean up NADC and anyone foolish enough to support them.

Onward Polars.

BLEU trusted Polaris when they told us that the war was justified. We didn't find out the truth until after the fact.

[SirDog]

You realize "highly encouraged" is in the wording of alot of ODP clauses right? I know NADC's ODP treaty template has that wording, which might explain why it's in Agora's, but it doesn't mean crap. Just like PIATs' "high" encouragement of the sharing of intelligence.

OK so why include it and also thats a very interesting point of view you have that certain phrases in a treaty "doesn't mean crap" to you. So can you please go through all the NADC treaties and point out what phrases written into your treaties bear no meaning. Thanks.

[Barix9]

I think you missed a couple cliches. Have a mind of your own? Use it.

Says the puppet.

[FreddieMercury]

OK so why include it and also thats a very interesting point of view you have that certain phrases in a treaty "doesn't mean crap" to you. So can you please go through all the NADC treaties and point out what phrases written into your treaties bear no meaning. Thanks.

Of course if I were to be attacked, I'd want somebody to defend me. But at the end of the day, that decision's still up to the other guy. No amount of flowery language will change that.

Your welcome