Deuterium Dawn Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 may come as a surprise to some that some of us had sympathies lying on the other side of the fence but yeah i know we have a long road to travel before you and others will give us the time of day You had the chance to be on the other side of the fence last August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 You had the chance to be on the other side of the fence last August. yes i know, and for one reason or another the decision was hijacked, i cannot stress enough the regret many feel about last August, and some of us have kept that close to our hearts and minds in the last few days.....and some of us were on the right side of the fence way before it became the norm (admittedly outside of ODN). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael Nadal Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I can personally attest to the back and forth nature, and thus, difficulty, ODN had in coming to this decision. And it's because of my, and others, regular discussions with ODN gov't members that I can say with 100% certainty that this announcement had it's roots in a time before this war had even remotely materialized. While the scope of the announcement, such as the Blood Brothers Pact, may have been widened by NPO's actions the other day, the nature of the decision is not newly founded. I welcome ODN out of the shadows of CN politics. ODN is among the oldest alliances in the game, yet they have been (for multiple reasons) a second rate power for quite a while now. Vanguard stands by you ODN, and we're pleased to have you stand by us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilzey Land Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 The best decision you guys ever made. o/ ODN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobb Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Good stuff ODN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscus Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 This is only my personal opinion, and not that of the rest of ODN, but they have honestly been one of our greatest hinderances for that same year. They have been in our business, dictating who we ally and do not ally ourselves to, as well as who we can cancel and not cancel on, as if we are their secondary colony on Orange. We appreciate their political maneuvering to keep us alive, but we will not, I repeat, will not dance for them when they themselves dance for Pacifica, and whoever else they feel they need to please. Perhaps, at some point, we were the blood brothers that our pact claimed that were were, but the fact that IRON made a huge "oversight" about informing us of the return of GOONS speaks for just how much importance IRON places upon us as an ally.I talked with Finsterbaby earlier today, because, despite me actually supporting the return of GOONS, I wanted to figure out, for the sake of ODN's GA, why they chose not to come to us with this news. These are the (brief) logs... [logdump] I have waited, and he has yet to elaborate to me what it is. Fine, fine...I am, after all, not that important...he doesn't need to share with me this info. [another logdump] The best part, though, is that Finster apparently had not forgotten, because Arsenal had been in contact with him approximately a month ago about the relationship between ODN and GOONS. I showed Arsenal the log above. Here's what Arsenal said about the issue... [yet another logdump] And this is from earlier... [ohnoes, logdump] So, apparently, not only has IRON had a sudden bout of memory loss, but now they're pissed at us because we're tired of putting up with their BS on top of the reasons cited in the OP. And to add to it, they're not even trying to give us any modicum of explanation. When IRON Starts showing that it at all wants to be an ally, then we'll damn sure be willing to reciprocate. At least degenerate108 actually came onto the ODN forum to plead GGA's case, an alliance we all know is so far in shambles it's amazing it's still breathing. IRON does not have that problem, and I know that they can take a couple minutes out of their oh so busy schedule to give us the time of day. Make of it what you will... * facepalms If it is not one of those three treaties listed in the OP, then yes, it is superceded. Please don't tell me you have no idea WTF you're talking about. The OP states very clearly you won't fight in support of NPO and those 3 treaties are the ones that will be activated for certain. Not that others can't be activated as well. With that said... have fun boys and girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MutedFaith Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 o/ ODN I always knew you'd choose the good side.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elpadrino Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) So basically in the last minute before every big war you choose the side whose treaties will be honored and the side whose treaties will be ignored, and its always the side with the bigger score, or did I miss something? probably its just a coincidence Edited April 22, 2009 by elpadrino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shilo Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) * facepalmsPlease don't tell me you have no idea WTF you're talking about. The OP states very clearly you won't fight in support of NPO and those 3 treaties are the ones that will be activated for certain. Not that others can't be activated as well. With that said... have fun boys and girls. Coming from me as common member, I do apologize for the insults that have been made by various members of ODN towards other alliances, most notably our allies that for their own good reasons decided to go for the other side. So basically in the last minute before every big war you choose the side whose treaties will be honored and the side whose treaties will be ignored, and its always the side with the bigger score, or did I miss something? probably its just a coincidence You did miss something. The the last three days, ODN has been banging their collective heads against each other on what to do in a situation where we have allies on two sides of a deceisive conflict. Not supporting them was never really an option. So we had to choose between supporting all our allies, our Karma allies or the other allies. Most members could not stomach lending support to NPO, even indirectly, in this war. That made it rather difficult to support both sides of our allies, or only the not Karma ones. So we ended up doing what felt was the right decision to make, and that is support our friends on the Karma side. The assumed size of a coalition that hasn't been clearly determined until tonight (or this morning) and the opposition that ceased to be before it started, also tonight, clearly had no influence on where we decided to go during the last 3 days. The best way to describe it was for ODN to once again being committed to walk on its own path, that we have walked before, but have changed due to outside circumstances. And the very large part of us feels very good being ourselves again. To assume that this was in any way an easy thing to do, is all but a false statement. The fact alone that we lost a longterm member, with one year in government, who felt strongly to support IRON, says a lot about the difficulty we all had. Anyone that has any clue about ODN knows that we have simply done what we all feel is the right thing to do, outside influences were at best, marginal, in convincing the Network where to go. Edited April 22, 2009 by shilo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bralor Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Impressive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventus ex Gutter Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 * facepalmsPlease don't tell me you have no idea WTF you're talking about. The OP states very clearly you won't fight in support of NPO and those 3 treaties are the ones that will be activated for certain. Not that others can't be activated as well. With that said... have fun boys and girls. ...ODN doesn't have any other treaties with mandatory defense or aggression clauses in them, other than those three treaties, and the ones they're not going to activate. The rest are ODPs, FPTs, or PIATs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroicDisaster Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 So did you drop the IRON treaty? I didn't read the pages before. Good luck ODN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazyox Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I still don't like you. You choose the convenient side to join. Either way, welcome to the good fight. those of us who argued numbers and military almost all thought that NPO would win . those who pushed for Karma mostly believed we were going to take a beating but it was the right thing to do ..we had been discussing this with debate for a week .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdaddychacha Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Caesius is absolutely correct, I still remember vividly the "Closed Draft Period" of GWIII. Soccerbum also clearly still has his finger on the pulse of what's going on in the Network, although he is an ex-member. Anyone who thinks this was the "easy" choice, the "safe" choice, the "infra-preserving" choice, or that ODN have been opportunistic in coming to this decision needs to send more spies over to our boards because they obviously have no idea about the pulse of what's going on in the Network. Keep hatin', though! You can never placate the haters... Imagine, if you will, that ODN had stayed neutral due to our conflicting treaties: The haters would have trolled us for neutrality! Next, imagine that the ODN had gone to war in defense of our allies in defense of NPO's actions: The haters would have trolled us for going with the "safe" side (exactly like they are now!) Furthermore, imagine that we had tried to honor every single one of our treaties that could have been activated in this war: attacking both Hegemony and Anti-Hegemony targets in a completely insane pointless gesture of meaningless loyalty via suicide war that would have moved the situation forward on Planet Bob not one inch: The haters would have trolled us for loosing our g**damn minds after the Polaris incident! ODN has a lot of friends who aren't all safely tucked away in the exact same bloc (as if that is any real guarantee that you won't be on opposite sides these days): The haters think that's a problem! Backed into a corner, with no choices that the haters wouldn't troll mercilessly, the ODN did something drastic: We made a choice. We made the right choice this time. Our allies who are receiving our protection appreciate that. Most of our allies who found themselves on the opposite side in this instance due to a complicated treaty web grudgingly understood and respected that and seem intent on preserving relationships in spite of this isolated instance. But that wasn't good enough for the haters... Nothing ever would be for their kind. Also, THE NETWORK HUNGERS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 So, apparently, not only has IRON had a sudden bout of memory loss, but now they're pissed at us because we're tired of putting up with their BS on top of the reasons cited in the OP. And to add to it, they're not even trying to give us any modicum of explanation.When IRON Starts showing that it at all wants to be an ally, then we'll damn sure be willing to reciprocate. At least degenerate108 actually came onto the ODN forum to plead GGA's case, an alliance we all know is so far in shambles it's amazing it's still breathing. IRON does not have that problem, and I know that they can take a couple minutes out of their oh so busy schedule to give us the time of day. Make of it what you will... Thank you for confirming what I've begun to suspect for some time now; the ODN I used to love might still be here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joracy Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I still don't like you. You choose the convenient side to join. Either way, welcome to the good fight. You think this was convenient? Convenient would have been taking our !@#$ going home and going to sleep at a normal time knowing we would be neutral and not have to worry about this !@#$. This was anything but convenient. Thank you for confirming what I've begun to suspect for some time now; the ODN I used to love might still be here. hehehehe, if only you knew as much as I do about him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky Karma Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) It has been with tears in our eyes and having hot discussions - but NOT choosing was this time no option for us. Many ODN-ers and ex-ODN-er have explained pretty well why we needed to choose exactly thÃs direction. When I voted - I voted for democracy and NOT for bully-ship - I just hope this debacle will finally lead to democracy... Please accept my sorry to those that feel hurt. Hope I can make it up to you one day and show you what friendship really is about. Last days my name has been used for many issues, but I'm really the only (and since many years), Edited April 22, 2009 by Wacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baden-Württemberg Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 To be honest, some people are ridiculing ODN, and hailing the MHA at the same time. They both have conflicting treaties. They both need to join either side, or stay neutral. They both decided to support their allies on the, in their opinion, more just side. I really don't see what's wrong with that. You have my respect for standing up in what you believe in, ODN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Our allies who are not in support of this action can expect our full readiness to defend them. For reference, those treaties which will be enforced include:Mutual Orange Juicing Obligation - MDoAP with Vanguard International Got all our members, and all we got was this treaty! - MDP with The International The Citrus Express - MDP with R&R Unless you actually have to honour them of course. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoiL Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Indeed congratulations on standing up for the stronger side.... once again. It is interesting seeing these kind of comments from IRON. I mean you guys are either hypocrites in that you aren't staying with NPO(despite the circumstance) or you are hypocrites in that you want to defend them but aren't going to get rolled for them. Anyway, its not like IRON was so interested in ODN. I do wonder if there were discussion on this though. You both aren't going to defend the aggression of the NPO but yet there seems to be no cooperation in the whole deal. Anyway, good for ODN. I've been hoping you would get out of the middle for some time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill n ted Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I wondered how long it would take for ODN to weasel its way out of its obligations, surprisingly longer than expected. It looks like the Optional Defence Network hasnt learnt a thing, dont sign treaties that you wont honor when the going gets tough. Either declare total neutrality in a conflict or scrap treaties; its hard to see how choosing which treaties you will honor and which treaties you wont somehow gives you the moral highground to decry the actions of others. If I was in IRON now Id be wondering whether or not to take the same approach to treaties as ODN, ignore the Orange Senate Treaty and take ODNs seat, afterall it was only signed so that we could pick or choose wheather or not to actually honor it. To Pansy; if your reading this you can count myself in on your quest. You know exactly what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Unless you actually have to honour them of course. :lol: one step at a time dear boy , jk.... we will of course be honoring them when called to do so, yet i do not expect most people to take my word for it which means you will just have to wait and see us put that pledge into action when the time comes. Edited April 22, 2009 by Cataduanes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoiL Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I wondered how long it would take for ODN to weasel its way out of its obligations, surprisingly longer than expected.It looks like the Optional Defence Network hasnt learnt a thing, dont sign treaties that you wont honor when the going gets tough. Either declare total neutrality in a conflict or scrap treaties; its hard to see how choosing which treaties you will honor and which treaties you wont somehow gives you the moral highground to decry the actions of others. If I was in IRON now Id be wondering whether or not to take the same approach to treaties as ODN, ignore the Orange Senate Treaty and take ODNs seat, afterall it was only signed so that we could pick or choose wheather or not to actually honor it. To Pansy; if your reading this you can count myself in on your quest. You know exactly what I mean. Because scrapping treaties in the last major war worked out nicely. Where did the term optional defense network come from again? oh yea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coursca Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) DISCLAIMER: This is me personally speaking, given that I am no longer a member of IRON, but rather a representative of my own nation. ODN, kindly explain what BS you put up with under my watch because I'd love to hear it considering I was one of the most pro-ODN Councilors in recent history. Because, as far as I recall, you guys shot yourselves in the foot more often than not when you had an opportunity to advance yourselves in the FA realm and be taken seriously. Why do you think you lost so many of your government members over the last year? You guys didn't have it together. I also believe that I tried to help you guys repeatedly at the risk of my own reputation and credibility with several allies and friends. I tried to defend you guys after you dropped on Polaris last war. And after the war, I defended you to several individuals in Polaris. So don't give me this load of crap "we aren't going to take IRON's BS anymore." It is not IRON's fault (nor mine) that ODN couldn't make headway in anything you did. Its your own fault. Take some responsibility for once. I may not be in IRON anymore, but I am no less insulted personally at the insinuation that I, in my capacity with IRON, was holding you back. Ridiculous. Edited April 22, 2009 by Coursca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 To Pansy; if your reading this you can count myself in on your quest. You know exactly what I mean. That clears up a lot, actually. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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