Sabcat Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340300048' post='2991954'] Seen as your alliance clearly lacks a structure capable of delivering diplomacy to foreign alliances as is demonstrated by the fact your conduct has prompted two separate declarations of war, by two unrelated parties on your alliance and in both instances all of your allies have concluded that your conduct has been sufficiently poor not to warrant intervention on your behalf, perhaps you should take an isolationist approach. This would stop people rolling you, stop your inane wining and most importantly, free you to pursue your anarchist dreams within the confides of your community. [/quote] One of those DoW's is a complete fiasco caused by the lack of structure you mention. The other was a result of a fully functioning structure that has since ceased to function as a result of the last time it functioned. On that basis it is difficult to work out whether we were better off before or after the collapse into chaos of our former structure. These and other deeply philosophical questions are taking up more time than is healthy, time spent in the confines of our own community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iotupa Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Completely warranted. Destroy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenfolk GTS Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' timestamp='1340300609' post='2991961'] Completely warranted. Destroy them. [/quote] Destroy Bal Masque? Did someone say that? Well ok, give us some time but we will gladly do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340300048' post='2991954'] Seen as your alliance clearly lacks a structure capable of delivering diplomacy to foreign alliances as is demonstrated by the fact your conduct has prompted two separate declarations of war, by two unrelated parties on your alliance and in [b]both instances all of your allies have concluded that your conduct has been sufficiently poor not to warrant intervention on your behalf, perhaps you should take an isolationist approach[/b]. This would stop people rolling you, stop your inane wining and most importantly, free you to pursue your anarchist dreams within the confides of your community. [/quote] To the bolded: You have no idea of what you are talking about, and seeing as you're not LSF or their allies, I would highly suggest in shutting your trap regarding the official relationships between LSF and their allies. They asked us to stay out of this mess and they already know that we would be there for them in a heart beat. Edited June 21, 2012 by Rudolph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leet Guy Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 21 pages and I'll I've been reminded of is that forced apologies are always stupid and pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeology Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1340301187' post='2991968'] 21 pages and I'll I've been reminded of is that forced apologies are always stupid and pointless. [/quote] well look at the alliance that made the force apology. also very much agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorikz Kain Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1340291466' post='2991842'] If not being able to meet the terms of a peace deal under 24 hours is proof that an alliance "clearly is incapable of governing its own members," there are MANY alliances potentially in that category. The problem is NOT the demands made, the problem is expecting them to be completed within such a short time frame. If IRON had waited for LSF to have gone through THEIR process of approving everything (respect is something earned, not automatically given JUST because you're the bigger alliance IRON) then I'm sure this would have come out fine. [/quote] The "clearly incapable of governing its own members" statement goes much deeper than just this. Its stated in regard to not being able to keep your nations from spying, impersonating government officials, inciting war, and well, these two quotes help my point I do believe: [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340298008' post='2991918'] Actually, this part isn't exactly true. Sabcat actually had no idea when he posted that that apology had that in it. [/quote] [quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1340299404' post='2991941'] I still didn't know what it had in it when you told me to change it. [/quote] Seeing as they are supposed to be an apology from LSF and the one posting and representing LSF doesn't even know what is happening!? It sounds like you have some internal problems to take care of. But I'm sure you have already realized just how $%&@ed up your "internal process" you call government is, unless war and public humiliation is part of your process in which case I should applaud you for a most excellent job in accomplishing both of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank4ever Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Lorikz Kain' timestamp='1340304369' post='2991997'] The "clearly incapable of governing its own members" statement goes much deeper than just this. Its stated in regard to not being able to keep your nations from spying, impersonating government officials, inciting war, and well, these two quotes help my point I do believe: Seeing as they are supposed to be an apology from LSF and the one posting and representing LSF doesn't even know what is happening!? It sounds like you have some internal problems to take care of. But I'm sure you have already realized just how $%&@ed up your "internal process" you call government is, unless war and public humiliation is part of your process in which case I should applaud you for a most excellent job in accomplishing both of those. [/quote] All this proves is that IRON didnt give them enough time to go through the proper democratic process, so Sabcat was forced to go on their forums last minute & grab the first thing he saw related to the subject. Considering that out of the few people that did get to vote, even Hereno the co-writer, voted against it. That to me says it was just a "joke apology" not meant for outside eyes. Easily fixed with a conversation since both parties agree an attempt at communicating was made (doesnt matter when, the point is it was attempted & ignored by your govt) and maybe even a raise in reps, but I guess war is more fun. Edited June 21, 2012 by Tank4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1340305517' post='2992005'] All this proves is that IRON didnt give them enough time to go through the proper democratic process, so Sabcat was forced to go on their forums last minute & grab the first thing he saw related to the subject. Considering that out of the few people that did get to vote, even Hereno the co-writer, voted against it. That to me says it was just a "joke apology" not meant for outside eyes. Easily fixed with a conversation since both parties agree an attempt at communicating was made (doesnt matter when, the point is it was attempted & ignored by your govt) and maybe even a raise in reps, but I guess war is more fun. [/quote] "it was just a joke!" isn't a very effective go to excuse fyi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted June 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1340301106' post='2991967'] To the bolded: You have no idea of what you are talking about, and seeing as you're not LSF or their allies, I would highly suggest in shutting your trap regarding the official relationships between LSF and their allies. They asked us to stay out of this mess and they already know that we would be there for them in a heart beat. [/quote] I would suggest that if you condone your allies behaviour you grow a pair of balls and do what you think is right, otherwise pipe down sugar plum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank4ever Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Auctor' timestamp='1340305831' post='2992009'] "it was just a joke!" isn't a very effective go to excuse fyi [/quote] Didnt say use it as an excuse. Just giving hypothetical solutions to the problem, outside of a war. Communication was attempted. Instead of ignoring, a simple "Was Sabcat's post LSF's official apology?" could have been asked. If they answered yes, then attack because of the hidden message. If they say no, then request an immediate edit/repost of an official apology. I mean you were willing to extend deadlines, but not willing to ask one simple question to get clarification on the subject. Edited June 21, 2012 by Tank4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorikz Kain Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1340305517' post='2992005'] All this proves is that IRON didnt give them enough time to go through the proper democratic process, so Sabcat was forced to go on their forums last minute & grab the first thing he saw related to the subject. Considering that out of the few people that did get to vote, even Hereno the co-writer, voted against it. That to me says it was just a "joke apology" not meant for outside eyes. Easily fixed with a conversation since both parties agree an attempt at communicating was made (doesnt matter when, the point is it was attempted & ignored by your govt) and maybe even a raise in reps, but I guess war is more fun. [/quote] So in other words you never wanted to publicly mock IRON, only in the safety and privacy of your home. Now i just feel silly, I apologize for my actions, had I known you were only going to talk about me behind my back and not to my face I never would have attacked you. That aside the time was an ultimatum from IRON to LSF to correct their mistakes. We weren't asking nicely, we were telling LSF what needed to be done for their mistakes to be forgiven in our eyes. instead of using this opportunity LSF made a mocking apology clearly stating they had no intention of owning up to their mistakes. This war was not caused by the mock apology, this war was caused by the recklessness of LSF's nation's actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indian Bob Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1340235459' post='2990747'] Some alliances are better than others, but there is a certain amount of having to figure out how to "heard cats" that comes with the organizing of any deal. There is a reason alliances normally allow a reasonable amount of time to get terms completed. I've made peace deals before on behalf of the alliance I've been a part of and not once has any other alliance demanded that the deal be completed within a day. They few times I've managed it, we're praised for the fast response and thanked. [/quote] What cats needed to be herded? It was 200 tech, easily payable by one person. In fact, in the logs Sabcat was going to pay it all off himself. The fact is that anyone with the authority to agree to the terms should have had the ability to take care of all of this essentially instantaneously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Zak Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1340305517' post='2992005'] [b]All this proves is that IRON didnt give them enough time to go through the proper democratic process,[/b] so Sabcat was forced to go on their forums last minute & grab the first thing he saw related to the subject. Considering that out of the few people that did get to vote, even Hereno the co-writer, voted against it. That to me says it was just a "joke apology" not meant for outside eyes. Easily fixed with a conversation since both parties agree an attempt at communicating was made (doesnt matter when, the point is it was attempted & ignored by your govt) and maybe even a raise in reps, but I guess war is more fun. [/quote] Ok, so IRON should know how active LSF's government is? We should know how much time they need? From my understanding, LSF knew that 24 hours was not enough; why didn't they request more time? IRON is reasonable in that matter, ask anyone that we deal with outside of our alliance, we understand RL comes first. Sure, LSF were lucky to even get a diplomatic response to Opti's impersonation of MCRABT, but if they knew they needed more time and did nothing, then it is once again their own fault for not making the time limit and makes their argument on that point null. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tick1 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1340305517' post='2992005'] All this proves is that IRON didnt give them enough time to go through the proper democratic process, so Sabcat was forced to go on their forums last minute & grab the first thing he saw related to the subject. Considering that out of the few people that did get to vote, even Hereno the co-writer, voted against it. That to me says it was just a "joke apology" not meant for outside eyes. Easily fixed with a conversation since both parties agree an attempt at communicating was made (doesnt matter when, the point is it was attempted & ignored by your govt) and maybe even a raise in reps, but I guess war is more fun. [/quote] All this proves is that Sabcat was too lazy to edit a few words so a subliminal message wasn't located in the apology. If anyone actually could have figured out that the message was within the paragraphs without being informed by an LSF member then kudos to them. However I'm go to guess that the person that actually wrote up the apology pointed it out in his post on their private forums informing other LSF members of the subliminal message. Edit: and if you actually want to have a joke apology, you don't inform people (This includes members) that you did it. Until later down the road.... just saying Edited June 21, 2012 by Tick1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340306016' post='2992012'] [quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1340301106' post='2991967'] To the bolded: You have no idea of what you are talking about, and seeing as you're not LSF or their allies, I would highly suggest in shutting your trap regarding the official relationships between LSF and their allies. [b]They asked us to stay out of this mess and they already know that we would be there for them in a heart beat.[/b] [/quote] I would suggest that if you condone your allies behaviour you grow a pair of balls and do what you think is right, otherwise pipe down sugar plum. [/quote] I would suggest that you read my post and I even bolded it for people with low reading comprehension. Edited June 21, 2012 by Rudolph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EgoFreaky Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1340301187' post='2991968'] 21 pages and I'll I've been reminded of is that forced apologies are always stupid and pointless. [/quote] I believe this is actually the first time ever we agree.. This day sucks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted June 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1340308685' post='2992041'] I would suggest that you read my post and I even bolded it for you for easier reading comprehension. [/quote] So what does that have to do with the price of cheese? If you feel like they were justified in their actions and are an innocent here, then stitch up your vagina grow a pair and defend [b]your[/b] principles. A word to the not so wise, they asked you to stay out because they are aware themselves that their actions were reckless, idiotic and totally unnecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocOctane Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340309381' post='2992050'] So what does that have to do with the price of cheese? If you feel like they were justified in their actions and are an innocent here, then stitch up your vagina grow a pair and defend [b]your[/b] principles. A word to the not so wise, they asked you to stay out because they are aware themselves that their actions were reckless, idiotic and totally unnecessary. [/quote] Well see Apparently LSF didn't ASK them to stay out of it, they must have TOLD them to stay out of it. It's a whole pants wearing thing.... Edited June 21, 2012 by DocOctane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340309381' post='2992050'] So what does that have to do with the price of cheese? If you feel like they were justified in their actions and are an innocent here, then stitch up your vagina grow a pair and defend [b]your[/b] principles. A word to the not so wise, they asked you to stay out because they are aware themselves that their actions were reckless, idiotic and totally unnecessary. [/quote] What is it with this guy and his tough guy act towards sub-1m NS micro alliances? Must be a complex. Anyway, this thread is dildos and I am done posting in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander shepard Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340311021' post='2992075'] Anyway, this thread is dildos and I am done posting in it. [/quote] Thank you, now get some nuking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank4ever Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Lorikz Kain' timestamp='1340307760' post='2992028'] So in other words you never wanted to publicly mock IRON, only in the safety and privacy of your home. Now i just feel silly, I apologize for my actions, had I known you were only going to talk about me behind my back and not to my face I never would have attacked you. [b]That aside the time was an ultimatum from IRON to LSF to correct their mistakes. We weren't asking nicely, we were telling LSF what needed to be done for their mistakes to be forgiven in our eyes.[/b] instead of using this opportunity LSF made a mocking apology clearly stating they had no intention of owning up to their mistakes. This war was not caused by the mock apology, this war was caused by the recklessness of LSF's nation's actions. [/quote] Oh so you weren't being generous like previous stated by IRON members. It was basically "Do WHAT we say, WHEN we say do it, and HOW we want you to do it! Or we attack." [quote name='Lorikz Kain' timestamp='1340307760' post='2992028'] -snip-....instead of using this opportunity LSF made a mocking apology clearly stating they had no intention of owning up to their mistakes. This war was not caused by the mock apology, this war was caused by the recklessness of LSF's nation's actions. [/quote] So one "normal"(normal in the sense of, unless a vote is taken nobody has the authority to speak for the LSF as a whole) member with less than 5 days seniority, makes a mocking apology which he himself voted against. Next it was prematurely posted by an unaware second "normal" member when a 24hr deadline suddenly popped up. Finally the post is frowned upon by LSF members, one being the writer of the "apology". Yet all of this is showing LSF's intention of not owning up to another member's actions. Am I understanding your post right? Edited June 21, 2012 by Tank4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foose Babganoosh Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Things don't look so good for the Lesbian Socialist Front Edited June 21, 2012 by Foose Babganoosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldr Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1340301106' post='2991967'] You have no idea of what you are talking about, and seeing as you're not LSF or their allies, I would highly suggest in shutting your trap regarding the official relationships between LSF and their allies. They asked us to stay out of this mess and they already know that we would be there for them in a heart beat. [/quote] And if we don't shut our trap, what are you going to do about it, little boy? You obviously don't have the balls to fight, so all you can do is cry on the forums. [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1340305517' post='2992005'] All this proves is that IRON didnt give them enough time to go through the proper democratic process, so Sabcat was forced to go on their forums last minute & grab the first thing he saw related to the subject. [/quote] They had time to write a "Fark IRON in the ass" message, and they had time to post it. [quote]That to me says it was just a "joke apology" not meant for outside eyes.[/quote] If it wasn't meant for outside eyes, it shouldn't have been posted on the OWF. And even if it wasn't meant for outside eyes, if you say stupid !@#$ and someone happens to overhear you, it's still your fault. If you cuss out your boss at work and he happens to be sitting in the next cubicle, you're probably going to regret it. If you call your wife a !@#$@#$ !@#$%* and it gets back to her, it doesn't matter if you didn't mean for her to hear it, she's going to be pissed. In this case, LSF was caught with their hand in the cookie jar. IRON tried diplomacy. The response was "$%&@ IRON in the ass". That's pretty clear cut. [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1340306524' post='2992017'] Communication was attempted. Instead of ignoring, a simple "Was Sabcat's post LSF's official apology?" could have been asked. [/quote] IRON had already tried this. The first time, MCRABT went to their IRC channel, where they were rude. He demanded an apology, and they posted a "$%&@ IRON in the ass" message on the OWF. And you expect IRON to go back and talk to them yet again? That had been tried several times, and each time, LSF just cranked it up a notch. Now they are crying because IRON gave up on talking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabcat Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 [quote name='Foose Babganoosh' timestamp='1340314278' post='2992124'] Things don't look so good for the Libertarian Socialist Front [/quote] Really, those guys are in a spot of bother as well? Things don't look to great for us in the Libertarian Socialist Federation either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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