Official IRON Announcement

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Dom Zak' timestamp='1340272414' post='2991686']
So, if I remember correctly, members of LSF already said that this was a valid CB against their alliance. Why are we still arguing over this?

They acted like asshats during negotiations, we don't respond kindly to being slapped in the face. End of story; they had a chance to avoid it, they didn't care. So why is this bickering still going on?[/quote]
We said the apology was a valid CB if you indeed wanted to pursue war. We fail to see your objectives with this war, however.

The bickering is still going on because your government felt the need to lie about the two other points to further justify their move.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Anarquista' timestamp='1340261392' post='2991608']
however, i am defending the LSF, the LSF is being blamed for actions of a few, without respect for its own process (both internally and externally), and myself and others are working to bring back order and do what we have to in order to rectify the situation,
the LSF will take responsibility for individual members actions if it needs to, but it must be able to work as it always has

i also can't blame you powindahs for believing what you do,
it has been a mess, but in order to fix it you must know the truth
[/quote]


The truth is that when LSF started impersonatting MCRABT, step one was not "go to war". Step one was "Go talk to LSF". Everything LSF did from there was designed to make things worse, until it reached the point where your official "apology" was "$%&@ IRON up their ass".

At this point, why would IRON care about you, or any of your members, or your processes.

After all you've done, I think I can sum up how I feel about LSF right here. $%&@ LSF up their ass.

You *still* aren't apologizing, you're saying "We have a right to be my idols, deal with it".

And we're dealing with it. I hope you keep the attitude that you have now, because you'll never see peace as long as you have that.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1340289743' post='2991817']
The truth is that when LSF started impersonatting MCRABT, step one was not "go to war". Step one was "Go talk to LSF". Everything LSF did from there was designed to make things worse, until it reached the point where your official "apology" was "$%&@ IRON up their ass".

At this point, why would IRON care about you, or any of your members, or your processes.

After all you've done, I think I can sum up how I feel about LSF right here. $%&@ LSF up their ass.

You *still* aren't apologizing, you're saying "We have a right to be my idols, deal with it".

And we're dealing with it. I hope you keep the attitude that you have now, because you'll never see peace as long as you have that.
[/quote]

You do realize that the whole "$%&@ IRON in the ass" thing was a direct result of them not respecting our policies, right? We didn't even get to have a formal vote on it, and the amount of people who were online who actually wanted to post that could be counted on one hand with room to spare. Had we been allowed to do democracy properly and get dozens of votes on the matter, this thread wouldn't even be here. As I said before, you can hate on LSF all you want, but to act as though IRON are innocent here is to stick your head right up your ass. We were disrespected and treated like !@#$ from day one, and any hostility or mocking or whatever you see out of LSF is a response to hostility, not a provocation seeking hostilities. Now quit burning those straw men and join the conversation with the rest of us.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340290178' post='2991824']
You do realize that the whole "$%&@ IRON in the ass" thing was a direct result of them not respecting our policies, right? [/quote]

Your policies let you go around impersonating other people in an attempt to stir up trouble, but you aren't supposed to be responsible for it. Your polices let you cuss out other alliances.

If your government is designed so that you can only insult people and can't do anything useful without having a month to talk it out, then that's a problem with your government, not a reason for IRON to sit around while you post "$%&@ IRON in the ass" and such.

[quote]any hostility or mocking or whatever you see out of LSF is a response to hostility, not a provocation seeking hostilities.[/quote]

Step one in this process was LSF posing as a member of IRON government, trying to convince IRON allies to attack someone. And you want to pretend that IRON was the hostile party who started everyting, and LSF was just responding.

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340290178' post='2991824']
You do realize that the whole "$%&@ IRON in the ass" thing was a direct result of them not respecting our policies, right?
[/quote]
And the war that you find yourselves in now is a direct result of the [i]whole "$%&@ IRON in the ass" thing[/i] (apart from some other stuff). IRON is not and never has been under any obligation to respect your policies. [i]Your[/i] member was the one who screwed up, and it is [i]you [/i] who has to respect IRON's policy. Instead, you decied to jerk them around. It does not matter if IRON over-reacted, or if someone else might have reacted differently. You were the one who messed up first, and instead of fixing it(which you had plenty of opportunities to do BTW), you decided to !@#$%* and moan. Now its time to pay for your sins.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Ostrogothi

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Lorikz Kain' timestamp='1340271788' post='2991681']but has also shown that it clearly is incapable of governing its own members is hypocritical and idiotic.[/quote]

If not being able to meet the terms of a peace deal under 24 hours is proof that an alliance "clearly is incapable of governing its own members," there are MANY alliances potentially in that category.

The problem is NOT the demands made, the problem is expecting them to be completed within such a short time frame. If IRON had waited for LSF to have gone through THEIR process of approving everything (respect is something earned, not automatically given JUST because you're the bigger alliance IRON) then I'm sure this would have come out fine.

What I see here is a comedy of errors on both LSF's and IRON's account.

[quote name='Joe Kremlin' timestamp='1340258512' post='2991538']IRON didn't owe LSF anything.[/quote]

Once IRON agreed to peace terms, IRON owed LSF a reasonable amount of time to complete those terms. Declaring war after 17 hours isn't reasonable.

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1340249254' post='2991098']-If you had just declared war because of the apology that would be cool, lying about the other stuff just gets you called out on it.
[/quote]

Thank you! Agreed 100%

Edited June 21, 2012 by White Chocolate

[Ostrogothi]

[quote]Once IRON agreed to peace terms, IRON owed LSF a reasonable amount of time to complete those terms. Declaring war after 17 hours isn't reasonable.[/quote]

LSF had to send 200 tech and post an apology. I'd say half an hour would be a reasonable time to complete those terms. And don't tell me they were busy or offline- they apparently had plenty of time to !@#$%* and moan on the OWF.

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1340291466' post='2991842']

Once IRON agreed to peace terms, IRON owed LSF a reasonable amount of time to complete those terms. Declaring war after 17 hours isn't reasonable.


[/quote]

No, not really. Once an apology like that has been thrown up IRON has no reason to believe they will follow through with any of their other promises. I'm surprised they even held off declaring til the next day. If LSF didn't want to get attacked they wouldn't have backed out of their deal out of the gate.

[smurthwaite]

Honestly, this is the most legitimate CB I have seen in the past year, with the exception of Legion rolling Tetris.

IRON, I have personally never 'liked' you, as you have always been on the other side of the web from me, but I respect this move. at those complaining about a legit CB....

Are solid CBs so rare that we don't recognize them when we see them?

*We = the whole of the CN community.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='smurthwaite' timestamp='1340293778' post='2991865']
Are solid CBs so rare that we don't recognize them when we see them?
*We = the whole of the CN community.
[/quote]

No, it is just that those opposed to this DoW are nitpicking whatever they can as a way to retain "control" of something and besmirch IRON. Some don't even care that war was declared, it is just that IRON has to be in the wrong about something here so we should have used only one specific incident (the @#$% IRON IN THE @#$) rather than the full scope of the situation. That makes us liars or bullies or some such. The point is we perceived that we were wronged by several things and now IRON and LSF are at war.

Edit: Switched Now to No

Edited June 21, 2012 by Matt Miller

[Gottrich Northeim]

[quote name='Anarquista' timestamp='1340256948' post='2991484']
what society is that?
[/quote]

The vast majority of them. But specifically speaking, this would be the Cybernations community. While this community would tend to be more lenient of people varying from the template than anywhere else. This tolerance understandably wears thin when that individuality starts to interfere with their perception of "how the game should be played" - the template.

[Stealthkill]

I have to admit, I laughed at the apology. Regardless, this is a far better CB than Dave. o/ IRON

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340294344' post='2991872']
No, it is just that those opposed to this DoW are nitpicking whatever they can as a way to retain "control" of something and besmirch IRON. Some don't even care that war was declared, it is just that IRON has to be in the wrong about something here so we should have used only one specific incident (the @#$% IRON IN THE @#$) rather than the full scope of the situation. That makes us liars or bullies or some such. The point is we perceived that we were wronged by several things and now IRON and LSF are at war.

Edit: Switched Now to No[/quote]
No. It's just that the rest of your DoW isn't true, that's all. But admitting it would require honesty and saying you were wrong.

@Jacapo: it took them sixteen hours and a NG member to figure out the subtext in the apology. I'm sure they would have declared before otherwise.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Ostrogothi]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340295695' post='2991890']
No. It's just that the rest of your DoW isn't true, that's all. But admitting it would require honesty and saying you were wrong.[/quote]
So you have argued back and forth for 20 pages not because you don't think you deserve this war, but because you want IRON to admit they were wrong about some details. That was sort of exactly what Matt Miller was saying
[quote]
@Jacapo: it [b]took them sixteen hours[/b] and a NG member to figure out the subtext in the apology. I'm sure they would have declared before otherwise.
[/quote]
Implying IRON actually spent 16 hours carefully combing through your apology?

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340295695' post='2991890']
No. It's just that the rest of your DoW isn't true, that's all. But admitting it would require honesty and saying you were wrong.
[/quote]

Not the way we see it. The apology is a non-starter given the fact that it was never intended to be anything of the sort. I don't care that you say we accepted it or that it was forced so what do we expect. It was, infact, not an apology as we see it. The fact that LSF "tried so hard to pay reps, but IRON did not answer" is a moot point since there was no attempt of any kind until after said apology was exposed. We see that as an after-the-fact "whoops they caught us, better get this sorted out" situation. You claim that none of our DoW is true, but I have just laid out how we see it. You can either accept that our view is different than yours for ridiculously obvious reasons (opposite sides of this war) or you can continue to falsely claim we are liars. Your choice is of no concern to me.

Edit: Spelling

Edited June 21, 2012 by Matt Miller

[Hastein]

[quote name='Anarquista' timestamp='1340261392' post='2991608']
first of all, i'm not insulting anyone nor have i ever,
second, i'm not defending the individual members (which BTW never declared war on members of another alliance when they were in the LSF)
if it's the individual members that did anything wrong, then they should take responsibility and like you said, own it

however, i am defending the LSF, the LSF is being blamed for actions of a few, without respect for its own process (both internally and externally), and myself and others are working to bring back order and do what we have to in order to rectify the situation,
the LSF will take responsibility for individual members actions if it needs to, but it must be able to work as it always has

[b]i also can't blame you powindahs for believing what you do,
it has been a mess, but in order to fix it you must know the truth[/b]
[/quote]

You, perhaps not. Your alliance and those represent it...yes. While LSF members did not declare war on other alliances under the LSF banner, LSF nations initially sent them war aid in an act of support, and, furthermore, they were allowed back into the alliance. Both nations that left LSF specifically to wage war on NoR nations have returned to LSF and have been allowed to remain.

Despite that it was only a few members who committed the acts of war and deception against NoR and IRON, LSF has not seemed keen on actually remedying the situation with other alliances. LSF did not care to do much at all about repairing the situation before the war with NoR, and even after the war allowed the offending nations back into the alliance, despite that they had brought war upon LSF. You then have an individual who impersonated a government member of another alliance in order to purposefully try to provoke war there, too. So you see the pattern? LSF nations leaving LSF to try to provoke war and then returning with impunity. Doesn't paint the best picture of the alliance.
And that individual still isn't owning those actions nor being given any consequences for once more bringing war upon LSF. You're asking for respect, and yet LSF does not give it to IRON in the present situation. And especially not with the bogus "apology," which was not only insulting to IRON, but also, again, an act of hypocrisy on LSF's part (I assume, being a socialist alliance, you guys have some kind of anti-oppressive politics, but given the language you guys frequently use...enough to make one skeptical). And the excuse of respecting your decision making processes, in this case, only seems a method of prolonging the situation. How long, exactly, were IRON supposed to give LSF? How long is "reasonable" after an LSF member tried to purposefully provoke war for IRON? And when does this voting process end, if you need to consult all members when some of your members even seem on the verge of deletion or are inactive? While you want your processes respected, you also need to respect the perspectives of others and the very real reasons they have of having very little faith in LSF's processes.

And I'm trying hard to take your post seriously, but the use of "powindah" again, which, either way you spin it, continues to make you all look like hypocrites, isn't helping matters. I really don't see the point in using racist/classist language no matter what your aim...and to do what? Even if its an attempt to continue to poke at NoR with accusations of Nazism, I'm not sure you guys get the damaging aspects of linguistic and cultural appropriation on the larger scale. Though I'm sure you all think you're being rather clever.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Hastein

[Gottrich Northeim]

[quote name='Anarquista' timestamp='1340261392' post='2991608']
first of all, i'm not insulting anyone nor have i ever,
second, i'm not defending the individual members (which BTW never declared war on members of another alliance when they were in the LSF)
if it's the individual members that did anything wrong, then they should take responsibility and like you said, own it

however, i am defending the LSF, the LSF is being blamed for actions of a few, without respect for its own process (both internally and externally), and myself and others are working to bring back order and do what we have to [b]in order to rectify the situation,
the LSF will take responsibility for individual members actions if it needs to, but it must be able to work as it always has[/b]

i also can't blame you powindahs for believing what you do,
it has been a mess, but in order to fix it you must know the truth
[/quote]

Out of curiosity are you guys using the "opt-out" policy again/still? I had thought it was phased out at one point, but I might be mistaken.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340296445' post='2991903']
Not the way we see it. The apology is a non-starter given the fact that it was never intended to be anything of the sort.
[/quote]

Actually, this part isn't exactly true. Sabcat actually had no idea when he posted that that apology had that in it. He was actually going to change it once we were like "Sabcat wtf are you doing", but then you quoted him almost immediately after he posted, so we just kinda went with it and hoped for the best. You can verify these statements by checking the thread yourself, and noting that he edited the post but changed nothing in it (he took it out and put it back in), and also check out my nerd rage about how "I didn't vote for that".

The hilarious part about the whole thing is that I wrote the first half of it, but voted against it, and Sabcat also voted against it, but thought it won in our disorganized "$%&@ we passed the time limit! go post!" IRC democracy that I keep blaming you guys for, and so that's why he posted it. The thing is, once you guys found out about the hidden message, you wouldn't even talk to us and listen to this side of the story and immediately declared. But the whole situation is !@#$@#$ hilarious to me at this point, especially given that that crappy "$%&@ you" apology wasn't even the only one I personally wrote that we voted on. It was intended as a joke, and then one or two people were like LOL LETS DO IT and now we're having to deal with the fallout. I doubt you even believe me at this point, but I'm tired of arguing about it and it's !@#$@#$ funny.

[Auctor]

Least we all get to laugh together now.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Hastein' timestamp='1340297125' post='2991910']
You, perhaps not. Your alliance and those represent it...yes. While LSF members did not declare war on other alliances under the LSF banner, LSF nations initially sent them war aid in an act of support, and, furthermore, they were allowed back into the alliance. Both nations that left LSF specifically to wage war on NoR nations have returned to LSF and have been allowed to remain.

Despite that it was only a few members who committed the acts of war and deception against NoR and IRON, LSF has not seemed keen on actually remedying the situation with other alliances. LSF did not care to do much at all about repairing the situation before the war with NoR, and even after the war allowed the offending nations back into the alliance, despite that they had brought war upon LSF. You then have an individual who impersonated a government member of another alliance in order to purposefully try to provoke war there, too. So you see the pattern? LSF nations leaving LSF to try to provoke war and then returning with impunity. Doesn't paint the best picture of the alliance.
And that individual still isn't owning those actions nor being given any consequences for once more bringing war upon LSF. You're asking for respect, and yet LSF does not give it to IRON in the present situation. And especially not with the bogus "apology," which was not only insulting to IRON, but also, again, an act of hypocrisy on LSF's part (I assume, being a socialist alliance, you guys have some kind of anti-oppressive politics, but given the language you guys frequently use...enough to make one skeptical). And the excuse of respecting your decision making processes, in this case, only seems a method of prolonging the situation. How long, exactly, were IRON supposed to give LSF? How long is "reasonable" after an LSF member tried to purposefully provoke war for IRON? And when does this voting process end, if you need to consult all members when some of your members even seem on the verge of deletion or are inactive? While you want your processes respected, you also need to respect the perspectives of others and the very real reasons they have of having very little faith in LSF's processes.

And I'm trying hard to take your post seriously, but the use of "powindah" again, which, either way you spin it, continues to make you all look like hypocrites, isn't helping matters. I really don't see the point in using racist/classist language no matter what your aim...and to do what? Even if its an attempt to continue to poke at NoR with accusations of Nazism, I'm not sure you guys get the damaging aspects of linguistic and cultural appropriation on the larger scale. Though I'm sure you all think you're being rather clever.
[/quote]

There's a distinction that needs to be made between NoR and IRON.

IRON have not at any point been the subject of a completed vote. Before this irc debacle they have never been mentioned on our forums at all.

The current situation with NoR and the events leading up to it are perfectly compatible with votes of the delegates council of the Libertarian Socialist Federation.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1340298451' post='2991924']


The current situation with NoR and the events leading up to it are perfectly compatible with votes of the delegates council of the Libertarian Socialist Federation.
[/quote]

TUNE IN TO NEXT WEEK'S SHOW: Strength in numbers or, a pack of idiots?

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340298008' post='2991918']
Actually, this part isn't exactly true. Sabcat actually had no idea when he posted that that apology had that in it. He was actually going to change it once we were like "Sabcat wtf are you doing", but then you quoted him almost immediately after he posted, so we just kinda went with it and hoped for the best. You can verify these statements by checking the thread yourself, and noting that he edited the post but changed nothing in it (he took it out and put it back in), and also check out my nerd rage about how "I didn't vote for that".

The hilarious part about the whole thing is that I wrote the first half of it, but voted against it, and Sabcat also voted against it, but thought it won in our disorganized "$%&@ we passed the time limit! go post!" IRC democracy that I keep blaming you guys for, and so that's why he posted it. The thing is, once you guys found out about the hidden message, you wouldn't even talk to us and listen to this side of the story and immediately declared. But the whole situation is !@#$@#$ hilarious to me at this point, especially given that that crappy "$%&@ you" apology wasn't even the only one I personally wrote that we voted on. It was intended as a joke, and then one or two people were like LOL LETS DO IT and now we're having to deal with the fallout. I doubt you even believe me at this point, but I'm tired of arguing about it and it's !@#$@#$ funny.
[/quote]

I still didn't know what it had in it when you told me to change it. When I posted this http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111638&view=findpost&p=2989391 less than an hour afterwards (It was Craig who told me to die in a fire btw) I still didn't know what was in it. I should pay more attention I suppose.

[ooc]It's a game, right? RIGHT? I've got stuff to do, I can't read every damn thread[/ooc]

[keeology]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1340299404' post='2991941']

[ooc]It's a game, right? RIGHT? I've got stuff to do, I can't read every damn thread[/ooc]
[/quote]

shhh some people around hear dont know that

[MCRABT]

Seen as your alliance clearly lacks a structure capable of delivering diplomacy to foreign alliances as is demonstrated by the fact your conduct has prompted two separate declarations of war, by two unrelated parties on your alliance and in both instances all of your allies have concluded that your conduct has been sufficiently poor not to warrant intervention on your behalf, perhaps you should take an isolationist approach.

This would stop people rolling you, stop your inane wining and most importantly, free you to pursue your anarchist dreams within the confides of your community.

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340290178' post='2991824']
You do realize that the whole "$%&@ IRON in the ass" thing was a direct result of them not respecting our policies, right? We didn't even get to have a formal vote on it, and the amount of people who were online who actually wanted to post that could be counted on one hand with room to spare. Had we been allowed to do democracy properly and get dozens of votes on the matter, this thread wouldn't even be here. As I said before, you can hate on LSF all you want, but to act as though IRON are innocent here is to stick your head right up your ass.[/quote]

Perhaps you are unaware how things like this work since LSF apparently has no government. When a member of your alliance impersonated the president of our government in an attempt to incite a war or deceive our ally's government, we owed you nothing. The fact that you even originally had 24 hours to respond in good faith with an apology is reasonably generous.

When an alliance is bordering on being attacked for a silly mistake that one of their members has made, any reasonable alliance would have acted immediately to rectify the situation to ensure that they weren't attacked. And in this action to bring the situation to a swift conclusion, a reasonable alliance would not have responded with a hidden "%@$& you" message. It makes absolutely ZERO difference whether or not that response was meant to be a joke or be taken in jest. The situation your alliance was in did not present you with a great opportunity to "joke" around.

Just about every step of this process was a CB in itself so IRON owes you absolutely nothing.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340290178' post='2991824']
We were disrespected and treated like !@#$ from day one, and any hostility or mocking or whatever you see out of LSF is a response to hostility, not a provocation seeking hostilities. Now quit burning those straw men and join the conversation with the rest of us.[/quote]

First off, I sincerely doubt this. And if it was true, what the hell did you expect? Did you expect us to laugh off the fact that you were trying to put our good allies in harms way by asking them to declare war while posing as our president? Good Lord...

Edited June 21, 2012 by The Warrior