NoR declares war on LSF

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1339705863' post='2983904']
My point was that there is no "right" and "wrong". Again, I've not seen you complaining in any of these other threads about alliances doing the "wrong" thing. I'm not defending anyone or claiming anyone is a victim. I'm just sayin', if you're going to be dumb enough to bring something like morality into [OOC] A video game [/OOC], at least be consistent.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is,




So lets cut the !@#$%^&*.
[/quote]
I have been consistent very consistent when something dumb happens i have no problem pointing it out.


[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1339709481' post='2983976']
Actually, that's not entirely correct, at least in terms of who punched who first. Yes, LSF nations aided nations who attacked Nor. Not smart taking into account the "common practice" that doing can be used as a justification for war. I will also grant that their very libertarian response of not doing anything about it as an alliance does not fit well into the "common practices" of this world either.

However, having gotten to know the LSF members somewhat, it IS within their philosophical belief system. Each LSF nation is their own nation and thus able to make decisions independently of the others.

What happened is that some of the LSF members decided to give their former members who were attacking Nor economic aid. As a response Nor tried to talk to LSF as a group. The Libertarian Socialist Federation, being what their name implies, brushed it off. Nor (being an alliance with similar policies to many others and not holding the libertarian view) decided to interpret the actions of a few of the LSF members as representing the whole and Nor punched LSF in the nose. Perhaps the punch in the nose by Nor was "deserved" by most alliances standards, but regardless Nor was the alliance that decided to respond in a military fashion.
[/quote]
What? so your saying LSF gets to have special privileges and they are outside the scope of standards here. So your saying you would be ok if you were fighting someone and this other guy who hates you keeps feeding them aid? Since when has that been ok. Now I seem to recall a couple times when more powerful or connected AAs have sent aid to people and the other AA was unable to do anything about it but it wasnt right then its not right now. Sending Aid is the same as condoning the war. One aider even posted reason as Proxy War. So stop trying to make LSF look like a victim hell even their own allies have said they are wrong.

[Exige]

[quote name='Nestor Durruti Magon' timestamp='1339709477' post='2983975']
>sigh<. Here comes the 12 year old brigade, trying to explain political theory they've thought about for five minutes and never read anything about.

No, you idiot, I am not assuming anything. Nordreich harbors currently and HAS ALWAYS harbored white supremacists. They recruited off of StormFront for fuxache. Also, IC roles alone leave them as white supremacists, at the very least IC.

Germans aren't necessarily white supremacists. But to roleplay Germany during WWII, to use Nazi iconography, to call yourself ___Reich, you are clearly modeling yourself on Nazis. Nazism, as a variant of fascism (really the most well known variant) is a national-supremacist ideology (in Germany's case, yes, white) where the relation of the nation-state reigns supreme over every other human relation. Fascism is the shocktroop ideology of reaction, to be used by the capitalist, the white supremacist, and the patriarch when bourgeois democracy fails to dilute the struggle for freedom into quiet reform. Exige, your Glenn Beck is showing, with your SPEEK ENGLISH comment and your befuddled political thinking.
[/quote]

lol 12yo. I bet all my 10k tech that I have a bigger IQ and higher academic degrees than you. But than again, you're a commie so that isn't very difficult.

and I never said anything like "speek english". English isn't even my mothertongue. Hey kijk, nederlands/vlaams is mijn moedertaal. And if you want I can start conversating in french or german too but just like your spanish, the majority here wouldn't understand it, so it's stupid to post in a foreign language.

[Bob]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1339687598' post='2983431']
Let me guess this one for you, seeing as it's being avoided.....................................NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
[/quote]
Its not being avoided, Umbrella just actually is a sane alliance and talked to NoR about it.

Problem was resolved in five minutes.


[quote name='Nestor Durruti Magon' timestamp='1339709477' post='2983975']
>sigh<. Here comes the 12 year old brigade, trying to explain political theory they've thought about for five minutes and never read anything about.

No, you idiot, I am not assuming anything. Nordreich harbors currently and HAS ALWAYS harbored white supremacists. They recruited off of StormFront for fuxache. Also, IC roles alone leave them as white supremacists, at the very least IC.

Germans aren't necessarily white supremacists. But to roleplay Germany during WWII, to use Nazi iconography, to call yourself ___Reich, you are clearly modeling yourself on Nazis. Nazism, as a variant of fascism (really the most well known variant) is a national-supremacist ideology (in Germany's case, yes, white) where the relation of the nation-state reigns supreme over every other human relation. Fascism is the shocktroop ideology of reaction, to be used by the capitalist, the white supremacist, and the patriarch when bourgeois democracy fails to dilute the struggle for freedom into quiet reform. Exige, your Glenn Beck is showing, with your SPEEK ENGLISH comment and your befuddled political thinking.
[/quote]

Claims Exige is ignorant. Then shows his ignorance of anything relating to NoR.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Penlugue Solaris

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1339709481' post='2983976']
What happened is that some of the LSF members decided to give their former members who were attacking Nor economic aid. As a response Nor tried to talk to LSF as a group. The Libertarian Socialist Federation, being what their name implies, brushed it off. Nor (being an alliance with similar policies to many others and not holding the libertarian view) decided to interpret the actions of a few of the LSF members as representing the whole and Nor punched LSF in the nose. Perhaps the punch in the nose by Nor was "deserved" by most alliances standards, but regardless Nor was the alliance that decided to respond in a military fashion.[/quote]

Not really. The 'former' members were not disavowed, quite the contrary. "What rogues?" That means it was an alliance attack the whole time. Multiple LSF members have confirmed this multiple times just today.

I have stood up for making a distinction between economic aid and war aid in the past - but there is no ambiguity here. It was war aid, it was deliberate, it was ongoing, and far from being disavowed the 'rogues' were claimed instead.

[D34th]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1339684860' post='2983370']
People who have never given the slightest hint that they give two !@#$% before are now experts on the history between the CN-left and NoR, INT, LSF, and the dynamics of the INT-LSF relationship as well as CnG.

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hp97yAfP_hM/T3HWqMFo-sI/AAAAAAAAArs/ZfADstSp5JI/s400/willy-wonka-wilder-300x300.jpg[/img]





For the record, can we cut the bull !@#$ and stop pretending that LSF deserves to die, or that they're getting hit for being 'in the wrong'?


Where were all of these people who all of a sudden care about what is "right" and "wrong" when Polar was getting beat down again due to a 2 year old grudge? Where were they when NPO got pre-empted for simply existing? Where were they when SOS was being burned to the ground just because they could be? Where are they now that CSN is being hit because lolDave?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning any of the actions stated above nor the alliances who participated in said actions.

But please shut the $%&@ up and be honest this time. This has nothing to do with LSF being wrong or right. None of you complaining in this thread give a damn about that. It has everything to do with LSF simply not having the same sort of political clout NoR does, thus their cheer leading section is a bit weaker. Thus they ~deserve what they get~.
[/quote]

Do something about it then, you are in position to make it happen. Defend your ally, active the MADP and NoR will be in problems, but until you do that you're not better than those who you are criticizing.

[Sniper Joe]

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1339711093' post='2984028']
lol 12yo. I bet all my 10k tech that I have a bigger IQ and higher academic degrees than you. But than again, you're a commie so that isn't very difficult.

and I never said anything like "speek english". English isn't even my mothertongue. Hey kijk, nederlands/vlaams is mijn moedertaal. And if you want I can start conversating in french or german too but just like your spanish, the majority here wouldn't understand it, so it's stupid to post in a foreign language.
[/quote]

You can be Einstein and still not know dick about politics dude.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1339711001' post='2984026']What? so your saying LSF gets to have special privileges and they are outside the scope of standards here.[/quote]

No. What I'm saying is that considering that LSF is a group of libertarians, their political response of not wanting to curb their fellow members "right" to provide aid is well within their own world view. I'm not necessarily saying anyone else should therefore give them "special rights." How other people or alliances react is their choice.

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1339711001' post='2984026']So your saying you would be ok if you were fighting someone and this other guy who hates you keeps feeding them aid?[/quote]

Nope. That would annoy me. However, how I responded wouldn't be an issue of what's right or wrong, it would be a political decision based on what would do me less damage in the overall scheme of things.

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1339711001' post='2984026']Since when has that been ok.[/quote]

The first time I recall seeing it on any large scale is during the Legion-Tetris War. Both sides had other alliances providing aid but not formerly being involved on a military level. Other people can feel free to bring up other examples and/or correcting me if it was used on a large scale basis prior to that war.

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1339711001' post='2984026']Now I seem to recall a couple times when more powerful or connected AAs have sent aid to people and the other AA was unable to do anything about it but it wasn't right then its not right now.[/quote]

So you'd rather have had LSF just out and out attack Nor as a whole? Would that have been more right? And if, instead of attacking all of LSF, Nor just chose to attack only the nations that provided aid and left the rest alone, would that have been wrong of Nor?

I'm not specifically advocating for those responses. I personally have nothing against Nor or the decision they made. I'm also not calling LSF a "victim." What I am saying is that Nor could have responded differently but chose not to. This doesn't make them wrong. I just don't see them as some sort of "victim" either as they are fully capable of dealing with a two person AA - aid provided or not.

Edited June 14, 2012 by White Chocolate

[Hereno]

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1339711093' post='2984028']
lol 12yo. I bet all my 10k tech that I have a bigger IQ and higher academic degrees than you. But than again, you're a commie so that isn't very difficult.
[/quote]

Dear god, the quality of posts in this thread has plummeted. Please, NoR supporters, tell us more about how you're genetically superior in your denials of fascism.

[Indian Bob]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1339713491' post='2984070']
No. What I'm saying is that considering that LSF is a group of libertarians, their political response of not wanting to curb their fellow members "right" to provide aid is well within their own world view. I'm not necessarily saying anyone else should therefore give them "special rights." How other people or alliances react is their choice.
[/quote]

If that's the case they're world view is a bit skewed. Libertarians only hold sacred individual rights, which by definition do not infringe upon the rights of others. By aiding nations who were doing harm to other sovereign entities they were trampling on the "victims" rights of existence, which should be abhorrent to the true libertarian.

[Aeros]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1339714302' post='2984078']
Dear god, the quality of posts in this thread has plummeted. Please, NoR supporters, tell us more about how you're genetically superior in your denials of fascism.
[/quote]

Not much better then LSF's supporters to be honest. But its all incidental. We all know how this is going to end. The only question is how many nations will be willing to jump on the buzz saw. Somehow I don't think LSF studied the treaty web very well when they decided to start this little vendetta. the fact that they are the aggressors, at least as far as everyone who matters is concerned means there is a possibility that once Nordreich gets bored with them another alliance will jump on the dog pile. Assuming of course this crew has delusions of being another Kaskus, which I find unlikely. So I suppose its smart that they are running to their Allies. Why burn alone when you can burn together?

Edited June 14, 2012 by Aeros

[Exige]

[quote name='Sniper Joe' timestamp='1339713414' post='2984069']
You can be Einstein and still not know dick about politics dude.
[/quote]

depends what you call politics. if it's the process of getting votes, than you're right, than you are better of with good looks, questionable morale and charisma.
But to discuss systems like capitalism/communism, you need to understand economic theory before you are able to truly understand it and to be able to critize it.

Another point, that is totally OT is that normal people can't judge the political insight of people like Einstein. Scientific studies have proven out that that average humans will almost always elect a candidate who isn't the best candidate, simply because they are not smart enough to understand the best candidate.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1339714302' post='2984078']
Dear god, the quality of posts in this thread has plummeted. Please, NoR supporters, tell us more about how you're genetically superior in your denials of fascism.
[/quote]

Look another anti-fascist, tell us more about how your poor education level, low income and low social status is all to blame on facism.

and a NoR supporter? lol wtf dude, stop smoking that stuff

[Hereno]

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1339716031' post='2984101']
Look another anti-fascist, tell us more about how your poor education level, low income and low social status is all to blame on facism.

and a NoR supporter? lol wtf dude, stop smoking that stuff
[/quote]

What are you on about? I'm the leader of an entire nation.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1339714990' post='2984086']
So I suppose its smart that they are running to their Allies. Why burn alone when you can burn together?
[/quote]
You must have forgotten how LSF's treaties could possibly chain out, haven't you?

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1339716031' post='2984101']
Look another anti-fascist, tell us more about how your poor education level, low income and low social status is all to blame on facism.

and a NoR supporter? lol wtf dude, stop smoking that stuff
[/quote]
How the hell did you find your way into Umbrella? I thought they accepted [i]me[/i] as a joke.

[Bob]

Its funny how no one from NoR is arguing about fascism but Umbrellreich is :v

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1339716031' post='2984101']
Look another anti-fascist, tell us more about how your poor education level, low income and low social status is all to blame on facism.
[/quote]

If you don't support fascism you have a "poor education level"- Exige 2012

What's so funny about this is you misspelled fascism while talking about someone else's poor education level. That's funny.

[Bob Ilyani]

I'm not going to comment on the right vs. left rhetoric plaguing this thread. Anyone bringing about that angle in this thread is an idiot and needs to sit back, take a breather, and re-evaluate that crap. Stick to the BR, people.

That being said, and as someone who likes both INT and NoR as alliances, this is disappointing. Not because of the war itself, but because, despite attempts to keep relationships between these groups cordial for years, a group of morons (yes that's LSF) can screw anything up. All I hope for is that INT's involvement doesn't extend beyond repeating propraganda lines from the sidelines. Escalating this war would only serve to legitimize the inane actions of those who started this war.

So yeah, INT. Think with your heads and not your hearts.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1339717466' post='2984115']
That being said, and as someone who likes both INT and NoR as alliances, this is disappointing. Not because of the war itself, but because,
[/quote]

We'd love to have you help us beat up on CSN, INT!

Edited June 14, 2012 by Omniscient1

[MitchellBade]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1339651152' post='2982975']
Horrible slot usage. I thought your guys' camps were more strict than that?
[/quote]

I laughed till I felt like a horrible person

[Mogar]

oh noes we might actually lose a war if INT defends LSF, lets lay on the public guilt!

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1339717621' post='2984117']
We'd love to have you help us beat up on CSN, INT!
[/quote]
If MJ can beat SF, MK and their first chain of allies will have absolutely no problem dealing with them. So no, it's not that I'm clamoring for INT to save "us" from the dreaded CSN hordes, but rather that I, as a person with friendships on both sides of the political debate, would rather not see the war escalate to the point where relationships are soured even further. I've had enough times where alliances I like are in open hatred of one another, and I don't need any more.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1339718198' post='2984126']
If MJ can beat SF, MK and their first chain of allies will have absolutely no problem dealing with them. So no, it's not that I'm clamoring for INT to save "us" from the dreaded CSN hordes, but rather that I, as a person with friendships on both sides of the political debate, would rather not see the war escalate to the point where relationships are soured even further. I've had enough times where alliances I like are in open hatred of one another, and I don't need any more.
[/quote]

Because you're a nice guy I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not question your motives.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1339717466' post='2984115']
So yeah, INT. Think with your heads and not your hearts.
[/quote]
LSF did the same thing MK did, essentially. Which one is Int [b]directly[/b] allied to?

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1339718416' post='2984130']
Because you're a nice guy I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not question your motives.
[/quote]

I'll laugh like hell if Int doesn't defend LSF, then I'll be smug as hell for already predicting this on our forums, and the excuse that they will use to get out of it

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1339653382' post='2983048']
I'm not saying GOONS, but GOONS.
[/quote]
Yes, roll GOONS.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1339718991' post='2984141']
Yes, roll GOONS.
[/quote]

Aren't they long dead?
I remember something about a nonjustice war or something