Announcement from Pandora's Box

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1334294291' post='2951926']
Hypocrisy and VE are synonyms.
[/quote]

Its hardly fair to blame VE for attacking them, when GOONS called them (and everyone else) in.

edit: clarity.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Emperor Whimsical

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1334294290' post='2951925']

[/quote]

No matter how much I dislike you, I do consider you above using that emoticon, and I believe you owe us an apology for this momentary lapse in judgment.

[quote]
"So we called in VE--who lost over 10% of its membership while winning the war against Polaris--to take nukes. Things'll be different this time."
[/quote]

As do most large recruiting alliances actually (polar lost double that in the same war), but we did it while declaring upwards of 1800 offensive wars. Whatever the case, I think its pretty clear we enjoy martial matters, are proficient at them, and are glad to have an opportunity to garner more experience for our younger members in a casual setting before something that actually matters rears its head.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Il Impero Romano

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334294489' post='2951931']
That's not fair, Omni. This is a show of force, a political statement, proving that PB enforces their members' policies. Sometimes that costs a little bit.

Besides, they didn't really have any choice, you can't let your ally get mangled by a micro for any substantial length of time. If the defenders won't pay for defending themselves against raids, they'll have to be put down.
[/quote]

Maybe so, I just find it hilarious that PB has to help GOONS back up their hilariously pathetic policies. Mongols was charged 18 million, for the same act Legacy was charged 3million, and DT was charged nothing.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Omniscient1

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='alyster' timestamp='1334294553' post='2951933']
GOONS, yeah....no. Truth be told these are rather strong Kaskus nations left there and they're the key issue. If you look at them, most of them are launching offensive wars, well at least were. They used to be some high or upper mid tier nations with WRCs, CIAs and lots of other stuff. Such nations are always quite a fight for the winning side's lower mid tier. If we'd just think back on the DH-NPO war, that was the range most of the fighting happened.

So I don't really blame GOONS for asking help here. But to bring in the entire PB? Why not, the more the merrier. After all at this stage it's not meant to be anything fair, it's simply an end game.
[/quote]
It's not meant to be pretty, indeed. However, with a superiority of four to one in the most problematic range (actually, it's five to one after looking it up), the enemies should have been covered and free aid dispensed to anybody fighting them. You only need one guy nuking them every few days to completly paralyze them. With three targets, they'll run out of nukes fast enough. I'm sure GOONS got some members with SDIs too so it's not like they're entirely defenseless either.

As I said, I don't mind the superior firepower to bring a more rapid peace. It's just the "they needed support on the ground" that struck me as out of place.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1334294803' post='2951937']
Maybe so, I just find it hilarious that PB has to help GOONS back up their hilariously pathetic policies. Mongols was charged 18 million, for the same act Legacy was charged 3million, and DT was charged nothing.
[/quote]

Well, GOONS had to squash this or else look weak, which requires allies, so somebody has to jump on this political hand-grenade. Better PB than DH.

VE were getting a little rusty, anyways. This will get some practice for their war machine.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1334293037' post='2951887']
What are you talking about. I mean that not in a sarcastic way, but in that I literally don't understand where you are getting that from. We don't allow tech raiding. We could care less if others tech raid. We could also care less how this war started.
[/quote]
It shouldn't be difficult to understand, VE is anti tech raiding, VE is fighting a war whose root cause is tech raiding, VE is hypocritical of itself.

[Joseph Black]

So...... When does this become a GW? How many more alliances have to join before this becomes VietFAN?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1334295037' post='2951941']
It shouldn't be difficult to understand, VE is anti tech raiding, VE is fighting a war whose root cause is tech raiding, VE is hypocritical of itself.
[/quote]
VE's bread and butter has been hypocrisy since day 1 of the reformation, they don't understand it because it's their reality; they can't see it anymore.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1334295037' post='2951941']
It shouldn't be difficult to understand, VE is anti tech raiding, VE is fighting a war whose root cause is tech raiding, VE is hypocritical of itself.
[/quote]
You misunderstand. We are not anti tech raiding, and I don't think we have ever said so much. We simply withhold from the habit, without enforcing any morality on the issue in general.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1334295037' post='2951941']
It shouldn't be difficult to understand, VE is anti tech raiding, VE is fighting a war whose root cause is tech raiding, VE is hypocritical of itself.
[/quote][quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1334295148' post='2951943']
VE's bread and butter has been hypocrisy since day 1 of the reformation, they don't understand it because it's their reality; they can't see it anymore.
[/quote][quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1334295181' post='2951945']
You misunderstand. We are not anti tech raiding, and I don't think we have ever said so much. We simply withhold from the habit, without enforcing any morality on the issue in general.
[/quote]
You see what I mean. What's astonishing is that they can talk at all for all the poop that comes out when they open their mouths.

Mmfff mfff mfff victory mffff victory mfff mffff mmmfff victory mmmfff.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Monster]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1334294290' post='2951925']



Resign VE.
[/quote]
He's in GOD. A number of VE members have gone to GOD.




[quote]"So we called in VE--who lost over 10% of its membership while winning the war against Polaris--to take nukes. Things'll be different this time."[/quote]


To be fair, IRON lost a similar amount. Maybe it has more to do with Polar and mass recruiting alliances.

[Ch33kY]

Full credit should go to Kaskus and Mongols for provoking such a reaction from PB.

Seriously, GOONS should have wrapped this thing up weeks ago with Kaskus and Mongols begging for peace. GOONS outnumber Kaskus and Mongols, so why have Kaskus and Mongols been launching offensive wars for the past month?

That said, Kaskus and Mongols; time to say goodbye. Hope it was worth it.




.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Ch33kY

[LegendoftheSkies]

Helping your blocmate PB?

This heinous crime against all that is good in CN shall not go unpunished.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1334295232' post='2951946']
You see what I mean.
[/quote]
The world is not black and white, one does not have to force others to adopt their principals in other to uphold them.

[Monster]

Again to be fair, Impero has said before that VE did tech raid in its initial days. A number of alliances have simply quit it for pragmatic reasons like bad situations resulting from raiding.

[Leerjet]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1334295037' post='2951941']
It shouldn't be difficult to understand, VE is anti tech raiding, VE is fighting a war whose root cause is tech raiding, VE is hypocritical of itself.
[/quote]

This statement is invalid. What's the difference between "military training excercises" and tech raiding? Not much really, other than the name. Both serve the same purpose.

[Ch33kY]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1334295355' post='2951951']
Again to be fair, Impero has said before that VE did tech raid in its initial days. A number of alliances have simply quit it for pragmatic reasons like bad situations resulting from raiding.
[/quote]

True. Also remember that those were the days when it was quite a big deal to launch a nuke. Now they're fired like they're going out of fashion.

Most mid-tier and top-heavy alliances don't tech raid nowadays simply because there are few targets and those within range have a stockpile of nukes, which makes it a rather expensive venture.



.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Ch33kY

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1334295264' post='2951947']
He's in GOD. A number of VE members have gone to GOD.
[/quote]
This is Schatt we're talking about, why let the truth get in the way of a smarmy dig.

[death from above 82]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1334288563' post='2951805']
I point you to our situation in DH/NPO, comrade. We are not afraid to fight, even when outnumbered.

This however has dragged on long enough, it's time for peace through superior firepower.
[/quote]


um- you have had superior firepower for 2 months now.

just saying

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1334295181' post='2951945']
You misunderstand. We are not anti tech raiding, and I don't think we have ever said so much. We simply withhold from the habit, without enforcing any morality on the issue in general.
[/quote]
I would suggest you look back into that greenie green past, enlighten yourself upon your alliance position and attempted actions in regards to tech raiding. Then come back and try and peddle your elixir.

[Monster]

It was an easy mistake to make since Cards isn't a frequent poster and didn't change his AA on the forums. However, his post should have given away he was saying it as an external party.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1334295355' post='2951951']
Again to be fair, Impero has said before that VE did tech raid in its initial days. A number of alliances have simply quit it for pragmatic reasons like bad situations resulting from raiding.
[/quote]

Indeed.

We have never condemned raiding on general principal alone, but we have condemned particular instances of it where the circumstance warranted. We have always recognized peoples right to tech raid in a reasonable manner just as much as we have recognized peoples right to limit tech raiding in a reasonable manner. Both sides of the coin are just as acceptable to us.

To put it differently, we basically don't care either way.

[D34th]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1334294709' post='2951934']
Its hardly fair to blame VE for attacking them, when GOONS called them (and everyone else) in.

edit: clarity.
[/quote]

In this specific case you are right, but while I have no false hopes about that, this fiasco should make VE re-think about it's allies, being called to defend GOONS after a tech raid that gone wrong when VE expressly forbid their members to tech raid is very embarrassing to say at least.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Leerjet' timestamp='1334295488' post='2951952']
This statement is invalid. What's the difference between "military training excercises" and tech raiding? Not much really, other than the name. Both serve the same purpose.
[/quote]
Unless I misread (which I may have), military training also comes with compensation given, does VE plan to compensate Mongols and Kaskus for damage done?

[mattski133]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1334293042' post='2951888']
So, Umbrella and GOONS couldn't cover which tier, exactly? If it is the lower middle tier, as suspected, Mongols and Kaskus got a total of 10 nations that could qualify.

I'm not against overwhelming firepower to prove a point. Let's just call a spade a spade.
[/quote]

The middle one.

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1334293137' post='2951891']
Don't you have staggers to blow? You've got two minutes til update.
[/quote]

Ooh. Teach me how you blow a stagger when another alliance declares war on you and I'll sit down for some lessons in military tactics.

I don't actually want to you to do that, if that wasn't clearly expressed.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1334293223' post='2951895']
That's okay. You war poorly.
[/quote]

I like how we did, considering what we were up against. You can spout off whatever you like, I will rely on facts.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1334293924' post='2951918']
Well, I'm just going off from the OP.

OOC: The only range where Umbrella-GOONS are weak is the 18k to 54k range (essentially large middle tier). However, Kaskus-Mongols don't really have anything above 33k.

In the 15-33k range, they have 10 nations. Umbrella has four. GOONS has 49.
[/quote]

The range we are looking at is 25k and up. We've been at war for over a month and our guys with maybe an SDI are fighting dudes with WRC's and 500mil+ warchests. guys like gantanx can sit there for months with 8k tech that is marginally being reduced while he fires off widowmakers. it's more than just member counts.