Joseph Black Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1328851328' post='2917697'] Oh my god this post is rich. Mostly because it's coming from a BFF alliance that always cries when we sit wars out. The other part is saying we rushed for peace. We were in this for four months. No disrespect to you, but your alliance firmly disagrees with you on everything you said here. [/quote] The point isn't whether or not FEAR wants to fight you (which is why they complain when you sit out), the point is you should consider the result of your actions before you make them. If you had, BFF wouldn't be involved and TD wouldn't have to be offering very sound advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canik Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Heh, Chax. You are mistaken on the terms. At least the way it's worded in the OP, Robster doesn't have to apologize to BFF directly. Cora, Robster, etc.. you are mistaken in not realizing how crappy of an ally NpO is, and how crappy your own alliances are. Cora, and others, did have serious issues with giving up any ground, giving up any control, even if it would benefit us all. Admittedly, it did not help that some BFF members (possibly myself included) virtually demanded change and acted arrogant at times. I try my damnedest to look at things objectively though, and I feel that we were very nice for a very long time before we started getting fed up, and became more arrogant and demanding. In return, the 'independents' got even more defensive. It was all downhill from there. If only you had all faithfully and unquestioningly followed me, but so few of you wanted to be part of something bigger than yourself. Despite being a satellite to NpO you wanted to maintain your 'independence'. How'd that work out for you? @ Dexo; You're right, FEAR does normally encourage people to fight for their allies, even if it's on the losing side. We ourselves have done it many times, so we have room to talk. You would think we would be congratulating you on standing up for your allies. Thing is, you already did that in the NG-UPN war not long ago. When FEAR was in NEW-DF, we sat out the next war. The circumstances were very similar. So, while I see how you would find that 'rich', hypocritical, etc.. we really would've understood in this case. We might have given you some crap because we don't like you, but the world would have understood, you wouldn't have suffered any PR damage. Probably would've been best you did stay out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergerberger II Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thedon125' timestamp='1328841998' post='2917603'] o/ all Btw, UPN, and keep in mind this is only a suggestion, and may or may not be good advice. Next time you want to enter a losing battle for an ally, consider sitting out, rather than rushing to peace. Not only will you be in a better position to inundate them with rebuilding aid afterward, but you also prevent that many more treaties from activating and by extension, require that many fewer people to agree to peace terms before your ally can leave. Sure, you'll get heckled by the OWF, but anyone who has been a ruler for longer than a few months knows that unless you're part of the hegemony, that will happen regardless of what you do. [/quote] Had UPN sat this one out, they would have been ridiculed for cowardice. Now that they are in the war, they are being ridiculed for entering a losing war. What, exactly, is it that would satisfy you? What decision could UPN make that could possibly satisfy you? Furthermore, the United Purple Nations are the last ally of Polaris to get peace. We never heard a word of complaint from UPN throughout the course of the war that they needed to get out. They hardly rushed to peace. I could not ask them to do any more than what they did already. They have already more than fulfilled their obligations to us time and again, and frankly I could not ask for a better ally. It is indeed true that you will be heckled regardless of what you do if you're not part of the hegemony. For example, I don't know an alliance more honorable, righteous, or principled than the Siberian Tiger Alliance, yet people still ridicule them for being a terrible alliance despite having no evidence to back it up other than their unwavering loyalty to Polaris, a favor we have not had the opportunity to return to them. And it's pretty simple as to why: it's easy. It's easy to ridicule those who aren't in power, and keep them down, because it means that you don't have to disagree with what people say. You don't have to stand up for what you actually believe in and you don't have to pick out what is wrong in what people say, you can simply accept one side's word as gospel, and dismiss the other side's word as absolute folly. It is disgraceful but it is the world we live in. [quote name='Canik' timestamp='1328852214' post='2917707'] Heh, Chax. You are mistaken on the terms. At least the way it's worded in the OP, Robster doesn't have to apologize to BFF directly. Cora, Robster, etc.. you are mistaken in not realizing how crappy of an ally NpO is, and how crappy your own alliances are. Cora, and others, did have serious issues with giving up any ground, giving up any control, even if it would benefit us all. Admittedly, it did not help that some BFF members (possibly myself included) virtually demanded change and acted arrogant at times. I try my damnedest to look at things objectively though, and I feel that we were very nice for a very long time before we started getting fed up, and became more arrogant and demanding. In return, the 'independents' got even more defensive. It was all downhill from there. If only you had all faithfully and unquestioningly followed me, but so few of you wanted to be part of something bigger than yourself. Despite being a satellite to NpO you wanted to maintain your 'independence'. How'd that work out for you? @ Dexo; You're right, FEAR does normally encourage people to fight for their allies, even if it's on the losing side. We ourselves have done it many times, so we have room to talk. You would think we would be congratulating you on standing up for your allies. Thing is, you already did that in the NG-UPN war not long ago. When FEAR was in NEW-DF, we sat out the next war. The circumstances were very similar. So, while I see how you would find that 'rich', hypocritical, etc.. we really would've understood in this case. We might have given you some crap because we don't like you, but the world would have understood, you wouldn't have suffered any PR damage. Probably would've been best you did stay out. [/quote] I know that Polaris, as I said before, has not had much of a chance to prove itself as a solid ally to the world, but I assure you if our treaty is activated with any of our allies we will immediately go to war without question. Why do you want people to faithfully and unquestioningly follow you? I would be appalled if I was not questioned as a leader. USN and UPN are not Polaris' satellites; I assure you they are very much independent and are not simply meatshields and yes-men. It may not have worked out particularly well militarily, but at least UPN and USN can look at themselves and be satisfied that yes, they are loyal, they are principled, they are independent. Indeed you did, and you were criticized for sitting that war out, were you not? I don't have any overwhelming sense of you being always there for its allies 100% of the time no matter the cost, not the way that I view the STA or alliances that are always there. And again we see this argument crop up. UPN would have been ridiculed for not entering, and instead since they did enter, you ridicule them for entering. I ask again, what, exactly will satisfy you? Edited February 10, 2012 by Mergerberger II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Glaucon Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1328839383' post='2917578'] i don't really see how it's much of a grudge, unless you consider all enduring negative opinions of alliances to be grudges (in which case there are much deeper issues at work here) [/quote] You're no Crymson, but you show up in Polar topics an awful lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicknight Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I DID NOT SIGN THIS WHAT IS GO- Oh, peace. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1328853148' post='2917719'] Indeed you did, and you were criticized for sitting that war out, were you not? I don't have any overwhelming sense of BFF being always there for its allies 100% of the time no matter the cost, not the way that I view the STA or alliances that are always there. [/quote] Please direct me to a time when BFF has ever told an ally "no" when they have asked for our direct support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergerberger II Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1328853379' post='2917728'] Please direct me to a time when BFF has ever told an ally "no" when they have asked for our direct support. [/quote] Oops, that should not have been directed at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1328853233' post='2917723'] You're no Crymson, but you show up in Polar topics an awful lot. [/quote] so you're saying people post in topics about alliances they don't like? that is so insightful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Congratulations on Peace, UPN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canik Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1328853148' post='2917719'] I know that Polaris, as I said before, has not had much of a chance to prove itself as a solid ally to the world, but I assure you if our treaty is activated with any of our allies we will immediately go to war without question.[/quote] Words are cheap. We want blood. [quote]Why do you want people to faithfully and unquestioningly follow you? I would be appalled if I was not questioned as a leader.[/quote] I am more than willing to hear concerns, listen to advice, etc. There is a time and place for it though, and sometimes you do just have to take a leap of faith. In CDT there was far too much bickering, questioning, lack of faith in each other or in one particular person. Moderation in all things. [size="1"](and to be entirely honest I was only semi-serious about the extent I would want people to blindly follow me - it is a bit of a running joke)[/size] [quote]USN and UPN are not Polaris' satellites; I assure you they are very much independent and are not simply meatshields and yes-men. It may not have worked out particularly well militarily, but at least UPN and USN can look at themselves and be satisfied that yes, they are loyal, they are principled, they are independent.[/quote] They are choosing to be your satellites. I think they are doubling-down on your relationship, hopefully they get some returns for their investment this time. It's not a bet I would take, but when you're desperate.. [quote]Indeed you did, and you were criticized for sitting that war out, were you not? I don't have any overwhelming sense of you being always there for its allies 100% of the time no matter the cost, not the way that I view the STA or alliances that are always there. And again we see this argument crop up. UPN would have been ridiculed for not entering, and instead since they did enter, you ridicule them for entering. I ask again, what, exactly will satisfy you? [/quote] I am pretty well satisfied. I just don't want this moment to end. I'm pouring extra gravy on top of the last piece of steak trying to make it go farther. UPN/Sentinel making a mistake, and allowing us to roll them certainly satisfies me. Mmm.. steak, rolls and gravy. Sorry, where was I? Ah, right. Yes, no matter what you do, no matter what you say. Somebody, somewhere will criticize and hate you. Never FEAR though, if you make good choices and keep at it, your reputation will improve and CN will reward you. Until then, suck it up and deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexomega Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I have yet to hear a decent sales pitch from any other alliance in this world. Until such a time that everyone stops their "Oh, UPN you're a nice alliance, except for that Polaris thing, that makes you horrible people" thing, I think I'll pass on leaving a group of allies that actually care for our existence personally. So far as I'm concerned, our current allies have done far more for us than anyone in the peanut gallery here, take that as you will. When UPN was practically falling apart at the seams winter last year, the grandest majority of you wouldn't (and didn't) care. Who was there? The fractured remnants of ourselves and, lo and behold, our allies which happened to include Polaris. Your soapbox is irrelevant. We are independent, we make our decisions, and we don't take foreign affairs advice from the people we were just dog-piled relentlessly by. Before you say it, yes, that was "our doing", but by the time we declared on FEAR, there was little reason to bring the entirety of BFF in on it only to complain about a lack of targets. If you want us to dump Polar, give us a reason to rather than your hamfisted approach of "Polaris isn't paying you guys back!". So far as I'm concerned they've done more than [i]you[/i] already. If that's insulting to you, oh well. Can we let this trainwreck thread die? It's degenerated into yet [i]another [/i]"Polaris are terrible allies" popularity contest with BFF leading the hysterical posting section. This proves my point more than anything, so go. Edited February 10, 2012 by Dexomega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canik Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 lol, u mad? NOW I'm satisfied. I cared dude, I really did, and that's what makes this so sweet. We privately, and politely encouraged you to cut ties with Polaris even before Bi-Polar. Good luck with your double-down. And, now that I have the last word, the thread can die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1328784877' post='2917243'] B. Seriously dude, he was talking about UPN. He mentions UPN specifically in that post you quoted, as well as a member of UPN who subsequently came in and directly argued his point. It's [i]two[/i] posts above yours. [/quote] Wow don't know where I got the dig at polar, I guess it was reflex since 99% of peacemode jokes are directed at them :/ Either way, my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanilla Napalm Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='berbers' timestamp='1328867255' post='2917780'] Wow don't know where I got the dig at polar, I guess it was reflex since 99% of peacemode jokes are directed at them :/ Either way, my bad. [/quote] No stress, i still cant figure out how my brain got four months out of two months. Boggles me i tells you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffyewunga Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Canik' timestamp='1328856872' post='2917754'] They are choosing to be your satellites. I think they are doubling-down on your relationship, hopefully they get some returns for their investment this time. It's not a bet I would take, but when you're desperate.. [/quote] Shows your lack of knowledge as usual. [quote] Sorry, where was I? Ah, right. Yes, no matter what you do, no matter what you say. Somebody, somewhere will criticize and hate you. Never FEAR though, if you make good choices and keep at it, your reputation will improve and CN will reward you. Until then, suck it up and deal with it. [/quote] The choice that would be considered good enough for the people handing out rewards is not 1's in good conciseness i would make but is not like friendship means much to you. Or the truth for that matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedon125 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1328851328' post='2917697'] The other part is saying we rushed for peace. We were in this for four months. No disrespect to you, but your alliance firmly disagrees with you on everything you said here. [/quote] I should have clarified, "rushed to [ooc]peace mode[/ooc]", not "rushed to surrender". Trying to keep the whole OOC/IC line separate. UPN had attacked BFF early in the war, and even at that early stage, the vast majority of UPN was in peace mode. Every slipped stagger saw yet another UPN nation rushing off to safety (sure, I'll admit we slipped a couple staggers). Yes, I know the views of FEAR on this matter, that doesn't change MY stance. As for UPN's choice that would've satisfied me? Quite frankly, I see three outcomes, none publicly good, but at least one good on paper: 1: UPN sits out, aids allies in rebuild afterward. UPN gets called cowards on the OWF, but retains most of its strength, maybe starts a recruiting drive while everyone else is busy blowing each other up, then once the dust settles, they leave the war stronger than ever, dump loads of money on their beaten allies, and get that coalition back to fighting shape to take on the hegemony next time. 2: UPN enters, but rushes nations to peace mode as soon as they are able. UPN called out as infra-hugging cowards again, money reserves and strength depleted in those nations that are stuck fighting. UPN emerges with bad public PR and a greatly lessened ability to rebuild, but hey, their PR among allies is high-ish because of their "dedication". 3: UPN enters, and fights with all of their nations for the entire duration (exception of banks and people unable to fight a war). UPN shows their courage, at the cost of having essentially all of their nations carpet-bombed and needing to restart from ZI. Our lower tiers would've been in ruin by the end of the war had that happened. Still, now UPN would be the one requiring rebuild aid. What Canik mentioned above is true, FEAR [i]did[/i] sit out NpPO vs PB/DH. We consulted with our allies, and decided among all of them that rather than throw another alliance at that grinder of a war, it would be more beneficial to send them aid afterward. And that is just what we did. Sadly, TOOL is no longer among us alliances on Bob , but I think we sent some Invicta's way as well. Edited February 10, 2012 by thedon125 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canik Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='fluffyewunga' timestamp='1328870494' post='2917786'] The choice that would be considered good enough for the people handing out rewards is not 1's in good conciseness i would make but is not like friendship means much to you. Or the truth for that matter [/quote] Aye, I am vile for wanting my friendships to not just be a one way street. A true [s]sucker[/s] moralist gives without expecting anything in return. I'm interested in what "The choice" is? This single choice that makes an alliance either immoral + successful or moral + failure. AND NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1328832724' post='2917505'] Polaris has never ever claimed to be Pacifica or covet their fame. For a very long time Polaris has stood very much alone in regards to Pacifica and always will. Continuum was formed with one purpose, I am surprised you bothered to stop Citadel. We had plenty of regard for our allies, we just refused, as always, to lockstep with people who considered themselves quite wrongly to be our superiors. I would suggest my ability to get Polaris into the position we were in immediately prior to Bi-Polar demonstrates just how good I really was, or how completely stupid you were...or both. What really burns you deep down is that insignificant alliance led by nobody important misled you so badly. Polaris has done more to keep Bob exciting than your sheeple alliance ever did. You fall so quickly into line with other people's agenda it is difficult to believe you ever have time to form your own. To stab someone in the back means you have to get pretty close, I think I did a pretty awesome job of being as close as I did. Can I be trusted, absolutely not, my track record shows I am an #$%hole and given the chance I would personally do in whoever is still on my list which is decidely shorter these days. Luckily I have nothing to do with the running of Polaris these days and therefore no capacity for treachery. I just hang around to randomly troll tryhards like you. It is not like your vote had anything to do with Pacifican agenda anyway, you did as you were told because we refused to. Better people than you have tried to force their will on us and failed, you had no hope. Enjoy being at war for a while longer while you run to the agenda of an ally. Diminishing returns are fast approaching for both our alliances. Also hello, I do not miss being allied to you, pompous blowhards are everywhere. [/quote] I think you claim to much credit for yourself. In bi-polar yes you did exploit the circumstances after your dow on \m/. I don't believe for a moment however you planned and orchestrated the whole thing from the beginning, there are to many uncertainties in war for you to correctly predict how things would exactly fall. So short of being 70 year old gypsy fortune teller you couldn't possibly have predicted what would happen thereafter. You saw an opportunity "to get revenge" and took it. woohooo great for you short term. Look at the path your decision has forced your alliance to walk. You have brought about the most mediocre period in Polars history. As for your claim "that you have done more" I can't remember you doing anything well besides lying and you can clutch onto that crown while we and the rest of bob move forward. You did well before Bi-Polar your right but that was built on Pacifca apathy, nevertheless you did have considerable influence, which only serves to exemplify why you are responsible for the biggest political blunder in modern times. We may have trusted you, that decision cost us one war from which we quickly recovered. Look where Polar is is now, alone on the battlefield for a second time in a year. Congratulations on your achievements. As for the rest, save your clichéd opinions for your peace of mind they are lost on me. Edited February 10, 2012 by MCRABT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster83 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thedon125' timestamp='1328875589' post='2917801'] I should have clarified, "rushed to [ooc]peace mode[/ooc]", not "rushed to surrender". Trying to keep the whole OOC/IC line separate. UPN had attacked BFF early in the war, and even at that early stage, the vast majority of UPN was in peace mode. Every slipped stagger saw yet another UPN nation rushing off to safety (sure, I'll admit we slipped a couple staggers). Yes, I know the views of FEAR on this matter, that doesn't change MY stance. As for UPN's choice that would've satisfied me? Quite frankly, I see three outcomes, none publicly good, but at least one good on paper: 1: UPN sits out, aids allies in rebuild afterward. UPN gets called cowards on the OWF, but retains most of its strength, maybe starts a recruiting drive while everyone else is busy blowing each other up, then once the dust settles, they leave the war stronger than ever, dump loads of money on their beaten allies, and get that coalition back to fighting shape to take on the hegemony next time. 2: UPN enters, but rushes nations to peace mode as soon as they are able. UPN called out as infra-hugging cowards again, money reserves and strength depleted in those nations that are stuck fighting. UPN emerges with bad public PR and a greatly lessened ability to rebuild, but hey, their PR among allies is high-ish because of their "dedication". 3: UPN enters, and fights with all of their nations for the entire duration (exception of banks and people unable to fight a war). UPN shows their courage, at the cost of having essentially all of their nations carpet-bombed and needing to restart from ZI. Our lower tiers would've been in ruin by the end of the war had that happened. Still, now UPN would be the one requiring rebuild aid. [/quote] A quick note. You better look up the meaning of "majority." And furthermore, we had 19 nations( out of 76 ) who did not fight in this war -- some of them who were in PM initially, some who escaped later because the counter wasn't all that swift. I look forward to the day where the mighty FEAR/Europa get rolled for over 4 months in the last 12, facing 13 alliances ( most of them already being individually bigger than you, ) and does not use the PM function. Oh wait you wouldn't, you would rather sit out and send aid post war. Gotcha. [quote]UPN called out as infra-hugging cowards again, money reserves and strength depleted in those nations that are stuck fighting. UPN emerges with bad public PR and a greatly lessened ability to rebuild, but hey, their PR among allies is high-ish because of their "dedication".[/quote] Only idiots without the ability to use logic would take this view. Edited February 10, 2012 by Robster83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parandiac Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1328851328' post='2917697'] We were in this for four months. [/quote] no you weren't. stop saying that. TORN hit you on november 30 white peace on february 8 that's two months and 8 days. prior to that, you were at war for all of four days in september/october because one of your ministers doesn't know how to tech raid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster83 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Parandiac' timestamp='1328892397' post='2917875'] no you weren't. stop saying that. TORN hit you on november 30 white peace on february 8 that's two months and 8 days. prior to that, you were at war for all of four days in september/october because one of your ministers doesn't know how to tech raid. [/quote] And prior to that we got curbstomped by GOD/CMEA/iFOK/R&R and a couple of smaller skirmishes with FOK -- for around 2months. Excuse Dexo for not being clear. But seriously, why the vast concern regarding us from you guys? You should really learn to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Warlord Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 BFF, you aren't doing yourselves any favours, you are making UPN look good. Just stop posting. Thanks. ^^ Also. o/ IRON Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parandiac Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1328893184' post='2917882'] And prior to that we got curbstomped by GOD/CMEA/iFOK/R&R and a couple of smaller skirmishes with FOK -- for around 2months. Excuse Dexo for not being clear. But seriously, why the vast concern regarding us from you guys? You should really learn to move on. [/quote] a year ago. eleven months. that's the war cycle, unless you didn't get the memo. stunning victory, gentlemen! UPN in continuous war for a year, separated by a span of nearly a year. i grovel at the feet of artful dodgers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnathan buck Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Really.....threads like this make me laugh cause one alliance bashes another. I'm still personally glad to see UPN stand up and not back down when fighting. I've fought against and with UPN in the past, and everytime I'm impressed by them good show UPN. BFF; Really cut it, you guys are making your bloc look like a bunch of pathetic idiotic children so why not stop it while you have the chance and just move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster83 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Parandiac' timestamp='1328894533' post='2917887'] a year ago. eleven months. that's the war cycle, unless you didn't get the memo. stunning victory, gentlemen! UPN in continuous war for a year, separated by a span of nearly a year. i grovel at the feet of artful dodgers. [/quote] Heh. I had to teach one of your members basic literacy already. Not going to do so again. On another note, someone sounds bitter. In all seriousness: As I said to you like 5 times already... Why can't you just let it go... move on, the war is finished. Edited February 10, 2012 by Robster83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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