A Joint Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom and the Viridian Entente

[deth2munkies]

For starters, I already talked about the topic at hand, but it's probably been lost in the shuffle so here it is:

I don't care, it kind of sucks that the Legion, after an extraordinarily rare display of valor will likely have to get hit, but if the NSO goes down too I still consider that a victory.

Now, on to the last billion pages of vitriol to sort through:

It's funny, I've noticed a lot of people railing against this announcement supported the "New Moldavi Doctrine" back when it was announced. That's what's being exercised here, that's EXACTLY what a lot of people wanted. Even in relation to this conflict, reading the first few pages of the dozens of threads on the topic, you have people crying, "Please! Escalate this conflict!" and are now throwing around moral reasons why it's wrong. The real hypocrites here are you out there in the community.

The allegations of "MK being the new NPO" have been thrown around for a while now, and to me they still lack merit for several reasons:

1) The NPO never did this before.

Not once did they intervene in a conflict in progress with a military ultimatum to find peace. If they wanted to stomp someone, they went fishing for a reason, any remotely defensible reason, to do what they did beforehand. You could cite "Breathing our air", but you realize what I am saying is the truth in the majority of the cases.

2) MK does not have a stranglehold on political power.

As much as you might perceive them to have it they really don't. They did back in Karma because people wanted them to have it. Their high level members comprise some of the most eloquent and intelligent minds on Planet Bob (even if their average member quality is markedly worse than most other alliances) and provided the rallying cry that people were waiting for. Now that the revolution has calmed down, they're just a mid-tier alliance with a good top end and decent treaty position. They're far from untouchable. The NPO at it's height was the #1 sanctioned alliance with a bloc encompassing 10 of the top 12 alliances in the game with a few more to spare. The difference here is enormous.

3) MK lacks the support structure that NPO had.

Related to point 2 but in a different way. MK's culture is markedly different from that of the NPO. While the NPO was in control, their culture overflowed and was used as an instrument to depress the populace and keep order. MK's culture is !@#$% insane, with most of the average members being glorified /b/tards. Their cult of personality is waning quickly as it is no longer supported by being the counterweight to an oppressive political culture, they will never have the dominance NPO reached, ever.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's talk about interference in political affairs:

As much as you don't want to admit it, both parties involved in this have a stake in the conflict. Due to treaty chaining, both would eventually be pulled in to any escalating conflict. As this larger conflict would serve no purpose to the two alliances in question and indeed could cause damage to their allies who might end up on opposite sides, it is politically prudent for them to take this course of action, as morally reprehensible as you may think it is.

[Drai]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320524985' post='2839768']
So to answer your question; No I don't see any conflicts with intervening into this fight in order to aid VE's efforts at achieving peace.
[/quote]
[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320516750' post='2839708']
It's been stated earlier that VE wanted us to facilitate this action alongside them in order to bring this conflict to a swift end and we obliged them. While I understand that most people like to view things in black and white terms; our actions are neither for the sake of evil or good. We are simply obliging a request...not trying to become some nefarious villain.
[/quote]
So why would VE come to a non-ally for help? You might want to ask one of your enclave members where this idea originated from.

[mq3eleven]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1320528215' post='2839792']
The sheer fact you don't see the problem here IS the problem. You may miss leadership of the past, but I am thankful you are not leadership.

See two can play the tit for tat game.
[/quote]

I don't see a problem with sovereign alliances acting in whatever manner they see fit. Whether I agree or disagree with said decision.

[Flonker]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1320528319' post='2839793']
As much as you don't want to admit it, both parties involved in this have a stake in the conflict. Due to treaty chaining, both would eventually be pulled in to any escalating conflict. As this larger conflict would serve no purpose to the two alliances in question and indeed could cause damage to their allies who might end up on opposite sides, it is politically prudent for them to take this course of action, as morally reprehensible as you may think it is.
[/quote]
This situation was in zero danger of escalating. The time for further escalation is over a month past. And besides, they're not even using the excuse 'to prevent further escalation' in any of their propaganda.

Thank you for playing, sir, and please pick up your cheap lovely parting gift on the way out.

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='Flonker' timestamp='1320528912' post='2839799']
This situation was in zero danger of escalating. The time for further escalation is over a month past. And besides, they're not even using the excuse 'to prevent further escalation' in any of their propaganda.

Thank you for playing, sir, and please pick up your cheap lovely parting gift on the way out.
[/quote]
That would be because I'm not spewing propaganda, but analyzing the situation.

You're pissing off a lot of people by not peacing out NSO. Whether you like it or not, escalation is being discussed. I don't know anyone close enough to the Legion to say with any specificity what precisely the negotiations have been like or whose fault all of this is. Frankly, I don't care. If you'd like to ignore facts that's fine, but that's literally all I posted barring my initial recap of my personal opinion.

[Velocity111]

Bunch of vultures pretending they're not.

[sir pwnage]

Mk and VE are being arrogant jerks. Good for them. I hope they get rolled for it.

[illusion]

Why didn't VE "intervene" before Tetris and NSO became a pile of rubble and debris? I've seen so many flaws and contradictions in the MK/VE reasoning and logic that i'm really starting to wonder how they became as large as they have. Just goes to show that it doesn't take brains to obtain a position of power, just the ability to lie and mislead others. What a poor example they are setting for the rest of the world. They should know however, that they are far from being the largest alliances on planet Bob. One day what they are doing to the Legion, will happen to them. They should be careful what they wish for...

[AirMe]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1320528343' post='2839794']
So why would VE come to a non-ally for help? You might want to ask one of your enclave members where this idea originated from.
[/quote]

THIS is the million dollar question!

[BloodFury]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320530261' post='2839806']
THIS is the million dollar question!
[/quote]

A million dollars isn't a lot anymore.

[Micheal Malone]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1320511646' post='2839660']
If might alone truly made right then MK would have been rubbed out a long time ago, when you were weak. People also respect things like nobility, self-sacrifice, honor, and a sense of fair play. Power changes because of these things. NPO was not cast down because they were weak, but because they were not just. In my view, MK has chosen to renounce all of the qualities that made them great to pursue this concept of might. True strength is found not only in pixels and in the pixels of allies who will honor pieces of paper they have signed saying that they will do so, but in being able to command the respect and admiration even of those who styled themselves as your enemies. Chasing the kind of might that the NPO had will at worst get you killed and at best make you into another NPO. Is that really what you want? I applaud your service to the world in casting yourself as a villain when there was none before, but I condemn that you have squandered the specialness that was MK's potential to reinvent the spectre of your old enemy.
[/quote]

Listen to this man... he knows how power corrups, amirite?

[CodFCS]

Fungi sceleste! Morituri te salutant.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320522791' post='2839757']
In my opinion, Tetris are guilty of being a sound ally for refusing to leave their allies on the battlefield. NSO are being too stubborn in insisting on remaining on it to the point of bringing about the destruction of Tetris. Hence why VE wanted to intervene with our leverage behind her. While we can debate the motivation behind this action in circles I'd rather not!
[/quote]

I'd rather not either so I'll ask you to think of this rather than respond. Is NSO the only one being stubborn in the situation you out-lined?

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1320528319' post='2839793']
For starters, I already talked about the topic at hand, but it's probably been lost in the shuffle so here it is:

I don't care, it kind of sucks that the Legion, after an extraordinarily rare display of valor will likely have to get hit, but if the NSO goes down too I still consider that a victory.

Now, on to the last billion pages of vitriol to sort through:

It's funny, I've noticed a lot of people railing against this announcement supported the "New Moldavi Doctrine" back when it was announced. That's what's being exercised here, that's EXACTLY what a lot of people wanted. Even in relation to this conflict, reading the first few pages of the dozens of threads on the topic, you have people crying, "Please! Escalate this conflict!" and are now throwing around moral reasons why it's wrong. The real hypocrites here are you out there in the community.

The allegations of "MK being the new NPO" have been thrown around for a while now, and to me they still lack merit for several reasons:

1) The NPO never did this before.

Not once did they intervene in a conflict in progress with a military ultimatum to find peace. If they wanted to stomp someone, they went fishing for a reason, any remotely defensible reason, to do what they did beforehand. You could cite "Breathing our air", but you realize what I am saying is the truth in the majority of the cases.

2) MK does not have a stranglehold on political power.

As much as you might perceive them to have it they really don't. They did back in Karma because people wanted them to have it. Their high level members comprise some of the most eloquent and intelligent minds on Planet Bob (even if their average member quality is markedly worse than most other alliances) and provided the rallying cry that people were waiting for. Now that the revolution has calmed down, they're just a mid-tier alliance with a good top end and decent treaty position. They're far from untouchable. The NPO at it's height was the #1 sanctioned alliance with a bloc encompassing 10 of the top 12 alliances in the game with a few more to spare. The difference here is enormous.

3) MK lacks the support structure that NPO had.

Related to point 2 but in a different way. MK's culture is markedly different from that of the NPO. While the NPO was in control, their culture overflowed and was used as an instrument to depress the populace and keep order. MK's culture is !@#$% insane, with most of the average members being glorified /b/tards. Their cult of personality is waning quickly as it is no longer supported by being the counterweight to an oppressive political culture, they will never have the dominance NPO reached, ever.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's talk about interference in political affairs:

As much as you don't want to admit it, both parties involved in this have a stake in the conflict. Due to treaty chaining, both would eventually be pulled in to any escalating conflict. As this larger conflict would serve no purpose to the two alliances in question and indeed could cause damage to their allies who might end up on opposite sides, it is politically prudent for them to take this course of action, as morally reprehensible as you may think it is.
[/quote]

I do understand where you are coming from but take MK's allies and then their allies allies and see that the culmulative NS there is over half the NS on Bob. They are allied to the most influential alliances in the game and, by extension, are perceived as the "king."

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320531039' post='2839817']
I do understand where you are coming from but take MK's allies and then their allies allies and see that the culmulative NS there is over half the NS on Bob. They are allied to the most influential alliances in the game and, by extension, are perceived as the "king."
[/quote]

They are kings in name only, anyone on their side of the web could easily have been said to be "kings". They're only kings as long as people perceive them as greater than they really are.

[Baltus]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320531039' post='2839817']
I'd rather not either so I'll ask you to think of this rather than respond. Is NSO the only one being stubborn in the situation you out-lined?



I do understand where you are coming from but take MK's allies and then their allies allies and see that the culmulative NS there is over half the NS on Bob. They are allied to the most influential alliances in the game and, by extension, are perceived as the "king."
[/quote]

King as in a Head of State, they don't run the whole show, but are important. MK is allied to 4 major blocs, so they're in a very unique position.

[Ian Dox]

The real question is if another alliance sends aid to either NSO or Legion while MK / VE is engaged in this action, will those other alliances be considered as committing an act of war against MK / VE?

Based on past conventions of war, I would say yes, but I'm interested in MK /VE intentions.

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Rafael Nadal' timestamp='1320453758' post='2839050']
Well, with our track record, who's to say we won't pre-empt them if they try to stay out?
[/quote]

I openly invite you to.

[Lukapaka]

Isn't there a 'Donate Money to Legion fund somewhere?'

[Tygaland]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320509483' post='2839630']
Yes as a relatively inactive leader of a 24 nation alliance who's allies are all directly or indirectly tied to MK in someway, I really have the power and time to do something like that. I played the white knight in the past to help MK survive and see how well that has worked out. No, I think I will just sit on the sidelines and call you guys out on how crappy of an alliance you have turned into. And if you don't like my opinion, do something about it. Because then it would truly show how far the mighty have fallen.

I dare you.
[/quote]

I'll ship out your "MK's boogeyman" membership card immediately. If you disagree with MK, no matter how reasonably, you are automatically a MK hater and a "moralist". The catering at functions is fantastic.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320517128' post='2839712']Yes but if Legion offers white peace and NSO refuses, Legion still gets rolled. (Reference: [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106450&view=findpost&p=2838832]click[/url])
[/quote]

Perhaps, just like every other alliance out there, no matter what Legion does or doesn't do, someone may decide to declare war over it. I'm not saying it's right. Just that free will exists and if an alliance decides to make a bad move, so it goes.

IF Legion offers their peace terms out in public (in the same way MK and VE have made their threat/ultimatum public in the above OP), and they are extremely reasonable (white peace being the hardest to claim as NOT reasonable - so I say go for white peace) AND NSO doesn't accept and VE/MK still attack - well, you've proved to the world that this has nothing to do with anything other than wanting to stomp Legion.

Yeah, Legion loses more infra. Wait a while, it will be worth it in the long run. Infra can be bought back MUCH faster than a smeared reputation can be earned back to good. I think MK/VE have more to lose if they were to follow through on the threat after Legion offers white peace and NSO turns it down, regardless if they realize it or care right now.

Edited November 5, 2011 by White Chocolate

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1320524203' post='2839763']
Someone explain to me why each alliance doesn't have the right to make their own choices without strong arm interference?
[/quote]
There is no right to war without interference from outside parties. Wars have never existed in a vacuum before, and I can't foresee a time in which they would.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1320529179' post='2839801']
That would be because I'm not spewing propaganda, but analyzing the situation.

You're pissing off a lot of people by not peacing out NSO. Whether you like it or not, escalation is being discussed. I don't know anyone close enough to the Legion to say with any specificity what precisely the negotiations have been like or whose fault all of this is. Frankly, I don't care. If you'd like to ignore facts that's fine, but that's literally all I posted barring my initial recap of my personal opinion.
[/quote]

Yeah Legion! How dare you require the losing party to admit defeat! You are pissing people off! You are horrible and deserve to be rolled!

I think we have reached peak stupid.

[johnathan buck]

[quote name='Dark Temptation' timestamp='1320526605' post='2839778']
Come on dude, let it go.

I've been on the losing side of a war with NPO on more than one occasion. I was around during the ONOS war and subsequent viceroyship, I was in CIS for the purging of the Green team, was ZIed by their henchman in GGA on three separate occasions, fought against them in Karma, and I can honestly say that the NPO of today are some of the best allies and friends in the cyberverse. Holding grudges from '06 isn't going to get you anywhere.
[/quote]


I was simply pointing out it's hypocritical in a sense for someone to say what he said, I said that as a thing from the past.

No I do not hold a grudge against NPO, I talked it over with Moo back when he was in power and we came to the agreement on certain issues that had me holding a grudge against NPO. Part of it being an attack I had upon me from a NPO nation due to something I posted on the older forums.

But alas that I the past. I've fought against NPO, and many others hell I suicided my nation against Valhalla and a few other alliances when I quit for a few months to concentrate on school. I will admit yes they have changed but they still hold the reputation with that, as they say. Forgive but never forget, and that is the saying I do go by in this game.


Back on topic though

With this as most people have said Legion has more slots open, this will quickly go away if NSO and them do not come to a peace agreement.

VE has had the reserved right to come in on this war at any point and time, their ODP with tetris is the reason. MK that's the grey area, they may have been invited but it is still a debatable point in my opinion.

Knowing what we see here from Impero and the MK gov. We will see if they carry out fully on their promise of hitting NSO and the Legion and NOT just the Legion.

[hewhoisgod]

Great, now we have to spend the next year listening to NSO and Legion both talk about how they "would've" won if MK and VE hadn't stepped in. Good job.

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1320536275' post='2839853']
Yeah Legion! How dare you require the losing party to admit defeat! You are pissing people off! You are horrible and deserve to be rolled!

I think we have reached peak stupid.
[/quote]
Are you even trying anymore? It certainly doesn't seem like it.