A Joint Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom and the Viridian Entente

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320459581' post='2839218']
But you cannot dispute my facts! I would venture to guess the elevated GRL has cost VE and MK both BILLIONS of dollars. Its worth protecting for both of them!
[/quote]

IF this was actually the case then they should do something to NG as well for starting two wars as well. As well as all the other wars that happened. Now both of us know you aren't serious with this post but I do believe you back MK/VE in their decision and that is !@#$%^&* and you know you can't think of a legitimate reason to do so other than the fact that MK was at your side when you guys were down. Take a leaf out of AirMe and Londo's books though and realize this is not the same MK that was kept under NPOs jackboot for so long..

[quote name='USMC123' timestamp='1320472367' post='2839436']
I love how people still think this is beneficial to NSO. Will Legion take a bigger hit than NSO? Yeah, probably because they are bigger, will NSO be treated lightly or receive "token" hits? You are freakin' high if you think that.

In case you aren't aware, which is appears most of you are not, NSO and VE have a very interesting dynamic, namely, they absolutely abhor each other. Do you really think Impero is going to let NSO off easy?

Also: for largely the same reason as I just mentioned, I can guarantee you NSO did not know about this, nor did Tetris, so nice try, better luck next time.
[/quote]

As mentioned many times in this thread, there is little (if anything) left of NSO to hit. Impero may claim hes here to destroy NSO even more so that they can't even rebuild but he is very shortsighted if he doesn't believe that they will be aid bombed by their allies post-war.

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1320480307' post='2839488']
One question that seems to be keep coming up but never answered (as far as I can see) is

What would happen if one party tries everything within their power to peace out, but other side is still unwilling. What is the action going to be?
[/quote]

"It's been answered clearly: The reasons for not achieving peace are irrelevant to us, the consequences remain the same. If NSO refuses to end the war unless you surrender to them, then you can choose if you'd rather do that or have us toss in our hats." - Seerow (Reference: [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106450&view=findpost&p=2838832]click[/url])


[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320480876' post='2839493']
Why would you measure the loss in comparison to raw numbers, that makes no sense. The way I look at it, Legion will take a NS hit, but NSO will literally have almost [i]nothing [/i]left if they don't give in.
[/quote]

They already have nothing left.


[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320484859' post='2839514']
I still see about a million NS, 87k tech, and almost 100 members, enough for them to be yelling about how they 'wont surrender because they aren't loosing!' up until this announcement, and enough for a large number of people to back them up in saying that. Check back to that topic that closed the day before yesterday. So in short, they are certainly broke, but we can make sure they get broken even more.

This though, is not about that, it's an incentive to end the garbage that both them and legion have been piling up around here and let their ally, whose punishment has long since been served, out of the war.
[/quote]

Approximately 46.48k of that tech is in peace mode.
Well over 50% of that NS is in peace mode.
Only 10 nations above 5k NS don't have 3 wars against them and most of them are in the 8-16k NS range where NSO has an advantage.
Only 2 nations don't have any defensive wars whatsoever.


[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320506325' post='2839606']
No Pax was pretty bad at the time. But this action isn't much better. Other than Rush's theory earlier, can someone tell me how these negotiations are any of VE/MK's business?
[/quote]

They aren't. They may claim that they want to get tetris out of this war, but we have told tetris they can leave at any time, they agreed to terms but refuse to leave the battlefield without NSO. Now Tetris staying in this war will hurt NSO moreso than them staying in it.. yet Tetris still fails to exit the conflict. It looks like they are mad at NSO for keeping them at war and are using VE to punish NSO and the Legion for beating Tetris down.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320507397' post='2839615']
Tetris is part of the war front. Tetris is VE's ODP. I think it's their business to deal with. They have decided to add a bit more weight to their "business" by bringing MK. I don't see any problem with it. It's pretty straightforward. Since both sides were refusing to move, they have decided to bring an ultimatum to make them move.

I think it's perfectly fine, if a bit heavy-handed. People are seeing nefarious things because they want to. Legion and NSO are keeping VE's ally in war by arguing on semantics and details. VE has had enough.

I could be wrong, eh, but that's how I read it.
[/quote]

They could have done this at the beginning. And As I mentioned right above your quote in this post, Tetris [b]chose[/b] to stay in this conflict to stay with NSO. They then begged VE to intervene, after not coming to the negotiating table for two weeks. If this was to get Tetris out of the war there was a 100 other ways to do so, the easiest of which is just asking Tetris to leave the conflict.

[quote name='EViL0nE' timestamp='1320510988' post='2839655']
At this point, I don't think it matters. But I assume (with the caveat that I know what happens when you assume) that if Tetris were to leave the battlefield today MK and VE would drop their ultimatum, as their goal seems to be to get Tetris out of the war.
So I'm curious if staying in the war until your MDP partner gets peace is worth.. getting your MDP partner stomped even more?
Why not just peace out and let NSO and Legion beat eachother up until one of them finally decides they're bored?
[/quote]

Tetris is mad at NSO for keeping them at war.
Tetris is mad at Legion for declaring on them.
Tetris gets both alliances they are mad at rolled by not exiting the conflict.
Why should Tetris leave?

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1320514911' post='2839694']
If this is what happens, The Legion should make an OWF post with the peace offer making it clear that NSO is the one refusing (or maybe post logs if nothing else...haven't had a good posting of logs for this war yet). An offer of "white peace" would probably be best, would make NSO look extremely silly to refuse that offer and make MK/VE the "bad guy" if they attacked as a result. Of course, this isn't a guaranteed to stop either MK or VE, but good PR has it's place regardless.

Although I can understand why a sovereign alliance (both NSO and Legion in this case) would hate being told "make peace, or else", this is a huge gift to The Legion. [/quote]

Yes but if Legion offers white peace and NSO refuses, Legion still gets rolled. (Reference: [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106450&view=findpost&p=2838832]click[/url])

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1320515911' post='2839704']
The lesser of evils considering what they have each made (And continue to make) themselves look like over the course of this conflict.
[/quote]


You shouldn't be worried about what other alliances are making themselves look like and concentrate on what your alliance is making itself look like.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1320511646' post='2839660']
If might alone truly made right then MK would have been rubbed out a long time ago, when you were weak. People also respect things like nobility, self-sacrifice, honor, and a sense of fair play. Power changes because of these things. NPO was not cast down because they were weak, but because they were not just. In my view, MK has chosen to renounce all of the qualities that made them great to pursue this concept of might. True strength is found not only in pixels and in the pixels of allies who will honor pieces of paper they have signed saying that they will do so, but in being able to command the respect and admiration even of those who styled themselves as your enemies. Chasing the kind of might that the NPO had will at worst get you killed and at best make you into another NPO. Is that really what you want? I applaud your service to the world in casting yourself as a villain when there was none before, but I condemn that you have squandered the specialness that was MK's potential to reinvent the spectre of your old enemy.[/quote]

Well put, but MK as an alliance has never been particularly 'special'. My personal experiences aside, they are all too flawed in some pretty petty ways in fact. At best MK has produced some special [i]individuals[/i], Archon in particular.

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320516750' post='2839708']
I think your assertion that we are undertaking this action to chase the spectre of NPO's fallen might is a baseless accusation...though I understand it's easy to cast us in that light given we're at the center of all evil in CN. Or so you'll be lead to believe if you skim the OWF enough! I think your simply reading too far into this alongside the majority of posters in this topic. It's been stated earlier that VE wanted us to facilitate this action alongside them in order to bring this conflict to a swift end and we obliged them. While I understand that most people like to view things in black and white terms; our actions are neither for the sake of evil or good. We are simply obliging a request...not trying to become some nefarious villain.
[/quote]

Spin spin goes the spinster.

Wow just over 24 hours and MK is trying to distance themselves from the situation by somehow justifying their betrayal of Karma. "We only came in cause our besties asked us too".

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1320515911' post='2839704']
The lesser of evils considering what they have each made (And continue to make) themselves look like over the course of this conflict.
[/quote]
Its their right to make themselves look like whatever they want throughout this conflict that doesn't involve MK, I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by getting involved like this. If NSO wants to get beat fully before they are willing to surrender, that is their right. If Legion doesn't want to be forced into admitting to a stalemate in a war they feel they are winning, that is their right as well.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320516750' post='2839708']
I think your assertion that we are undertaking this action to chase the spectre of NPO's fallen might is a baseless accusation...though I understand it's easy to cast us in that light given we're at the center of all evil in CN. Or so you'll be lead to believe if you skim the OWF enough! I think your simply reading too far into this alongside the majority of posters in this topic. It's been stated earlier that VE wanted us to facilitate this action alongside them in order to bring this conflict to a swift end and we obliged them. While I understand that most people like to view things in black and white terms; our actions are neither for the sake of evil or good. We are simply obliging a request...not trying to become some nefarious villain.
[/quote]

And more often than not NPO was just obliging the request of their allies. Many point to NoCB as one of NPOs biggest atrocities, but it was GGA and Valhalla who declared originally. NPO just honored a treaty and declared on GOLD iirc. There are many other instances when those around NPO used their position of power to treat others unjustly, and I believe that the larger problem of NPO was that they did not do anything to stop those unjust actions from happening.

MK is doing the same thing here.

EDIT: same thing, not something.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Unknown Smurf

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1320517285' post='2839715']
Spin spin goes the spinster.

Wow just over 24 hours and MK is trying to distance themselves from the situation by somehow justifying their betrayal of Karma. "We only came in cause our besties asked us too".
[/quote]

Keep in mind that MK and VE aren't allied.

And yes, justification and back-peddling is something MK does well. The instance where they convinced C&G that they didn't re-enter after canceling all their treaties was because they didn't want to be in a bloc comes to mind.. specifically the bit about claiming that DH isn't a bloc, its a 3 way treaty.

[Phaedron]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1320510099' post='2839639']
Heres the thing you consistently miss here, might does make right. Your long term experience in this game should provide you with all the evidence you need to understand that. ITs the reason why I don't have to justify our actions to you. Partly because I'm not government, mostly because you're insignificant. Your objections won't do anything to change our course of action. You asked for a reason, I gave a reasonable answer. You chose to ignore addressing my point, continue to cry "monster", and continue your usual soap box posturing that is just so typically you.
[/quote]

I'm going to have to agree with Londo here that this is the kind of actions/language that got NPO in trouble over time (well, they cloaked it in political philosophy a bit more) -- you spend enough time on OWF telling everyone how might makes right, and how you have the might, and how no one can question your actions because they are "insignificant", and folks are going to get their feathers ruffled. Over time, that can lead to enough backroom IRC discussions about how oppressive you've become that well, Karma could come back around again in a different form.

More to the point, I actually don't mind the idea of legitimately using force to police a silly / protracted war into a White Peace or at least a peace acceptable to both parties... but when this turns into a curb stomp if Legion and NSO don't comply, Bob will be just that much diminished for it.

C'est la vie.

[Flonker]

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1320517552' post='2839721']
More to the point, I actually don't mind the idea of legitimately using force to police a silly / protracted war into a White Peace or at least a peace acceptable to both parties... but when this turns into a curb stomp if Legion and NSO don't comply, Bob will be just that much diminished for it.

C'est la vie.
[/quote]
Yup, we're gonna get curbstomped by two alliances with serious cases of buckballs.

C'est le guerre...

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Phaedron' timestamp='1320517552' post='2839721']
More to the point, I actually don't mind the idea of legitimately using force to police a silly / protracted war into a White Peace or at least a peace acceptable to both parties... but when this turns into a curb stomp if Legion and NSO don't comply, Bob will be just that much diminished for it.

C'est la vie.
[/quote]

Really you don't mind? You wouldn't mind if the Apparatus justifiably entered a war, proceeded to gain the clear advantage, and dictated fair peace terms. Only to have two uninvolved parties proclaim "Accept Peace or get rolled!"?

You are entitled to your opinion, but I hope that Planet Bob isn't as short sighted. If it happens to us it can happen to you. So you'd better hope that the world's dominant powers either like you or like what you're doing. The jackboot may be on a different foot but it's still extremely uncomfortable when it standing on your neck.

Edited November 5, 2011 by LeonidasRexII

[hizzy]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320516750' post='2839708']
I think your assertion that we are undertaking this action to chase the spectre of NPO's fallen might is a baseless accusation...though I understand it's easy to cast us in that light given we're at the center of all evil in CN. Or so you'll be lead to believe if you skim the OWF enough! I think your simply reading too far into this alongside the majority of posters in this topic. It's been stated earlier that VE wanted us to facilitate this action alongside them in order to bring this conflict to a swift end and we obliged them. While I understand that most people like to view things in black and white terms; our actions are neither for the sake of evil or good. We are simply obliging a request...not trying to become some nefarious villain.
[/quote]

Why VE and MK haven't already declared war on you is quite the mystery given their stated objective.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320516750' post='2839708']
I think your assertion that we are undertaking this action to chase the spectre of NPO's fallen might is a baseless accusation...though I understand it's easy to cast us in that light given we're at the center of all evil in CN.[/quote]

Can't speak for everyone, but personally speaking I haven't insisted that an alliance put a percentage of its top tier out into a shooting gallery in order to obtain peace, YOUR ALLIANCE on the other hand, has.

[quote]I think your simply reading too far into this alongside the majority of posters in this topic. It's been stated earlier that VE wanted us to facilitate this action alongside them in order to bring this conflict to a swift end and we obliged them. [/quote]

So then it's not NK's fault, it's VE's fault and you are only doing a friend a favor. Please. Just stop posting, you're making yourself look worse than Seerow.

Own your actions or go home.

[quote]While I understand that most people like to view things in black and white terms; our actions are neither for the sake of evil or good. We are simply obliging a request...not trying to become some nefarious villain.[/quote]

Dude, the more I read this thread and the comments of your own alliance's members, it has become crystal clear that this is a total richard move, no more, no less. I remain hopeful that common sense will prevail, but then this is Planet Bob.

[Owned-You]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1320517285' post='2839715']
Spin spin goes the spinster.

Wow just over 24 hours and MK is trying to distance themselves from the situation by somehow justifying their betrayal of Karma. "We only came in cause our besties asked us too".
[/quote]

I don't see how the opinions of an individual knight can constitute any of that. I thank you for implying that I'm a man of importance in MK and that my individual postings alone make our foreign policy...but sadly I am only a servant of the King.

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320517384' post='2839717']
And more often than not NPO was just obliging the request of their allies. Many point to NoCB as one of NPOs biggest atrocities, but it was GGA and Valhalla who declared originally. NPO just honored a treaty and declared on GOLD iirc. There are many other instances when those around NPO used their position of power to treat others unjustly, and I believe that the larger problem of NPO was that they did not do anything to stop those unjust actions from happening.

MK is doing the same thing here.

EDIT: same thing, not something.
[/quote]

I think it's quite a stretch to suggest that VE trying to secure peace for Tetris in this war and our support for such actions as anywhere near the same level of the actions undertaken by The Continuum in the NoCB War.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1320518917' post='2839734']
-Snip-
[/quote]

I'm only posting my opinions and stating facts mentioned earlier. As it stands, our actions are nothing more then our intent to intervene into this conflict should it not be resolved on amiable terms for both parties. I'm not going to comment on the morality of asking for Pacifica's top-tier to come out of peace for 2 weeks given that has no bearing on this situation and it's been discussed at length elsewhere.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Owned-You

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320519716' post='2839739']
I think it's quite a stretch to suggest that VE trying to secure peace for Tetris in this war and our support for such actions as anywhere near the same level of the actions undertaken by The Continuum in the NoCB War.
[/quote]

I think it's quite a stretch to claim that this action by MK/VE is an attempt to secure peace for Tetris. Tetris has agreed to terms but refuses to leave the battlefield until NSO does.

The only thing keeping them on the battlefield is that they are too proud to leave an ally fighting. The only thing keeping their ally on the battlefield is that their ally is too proud to surrender (and [OOC] their emperor deleted and a few prominent members were ousted for multies [/OOC]).

Both Tetris and NSO are exhibiting hubris.

EDIT: Used a better adjective.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Unknown Smurf

[MikeCrotch]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320517538' post='2839719']
And yes, justification and back-peddling is something MK does well. The instance where they convinced C&G that they didn't re-enter after canceling all their treaties was because they didn't want to be in a bloc comes to mind.. specifically the bit about claiming that DH isn't a bloc, its a 3 way treaty.
[/quote]

Doomhouse isn't a bloc, we're secretly one big alliance and have just been keeping up the charade for a year.

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320519716' post='2839739']
I don't see how the opinions of an individual knight can constitute any of that. I thank you for implying that I'm a man of importance in MK and that my individual postings alone make our foreign policy...but sadly I am only a servant of the King.
[/quote]

So your opinions aren't shared by those in power within MK? And you as a "servant of the King" aren't privy or knowledgeable enough to speak to MK's foreign policy, is that right? Then from what basis did you form your opinion that MK was merely obliging a request from a friend? You may be just an individual knight, but you still fly the colors of the Castle Hall, and you proudly wear the name of the Mushroom Kingdom in your signature. So excuse me if I assumed incorrectly that you had some, or any sense, of what MK was trying to do.

"Sadly I am only", you stated. What I find sad is that a nation that flies the colors and have burned for the Shrooms would think so little of themselves. I'm proud to fly the Legion flag and openly give allegiance to them in my signature. I also realize that when I speak in a public forum that my views can be said to represent my alliance. Are they the official pronouncements of Legion leadership? No, but when I say something I do so realizing that I'm contributing to the public face of my alliance.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1320520987' post='2839744']
So your opinions aren't shared by those in power within MK? And you as a "servant of the King" aren't privy or knowledgeable enough to speak to MK's foreign policy, is that right? Then from what basis did you form your opinion that MK was merely obliging a request from a friend? You may be just an individual knight, but you still fly the colors of the Castle Hall, and you proudly wear the name of the Mushroom Kingdom in your signature. So excuse me if I assumed incorrectly that you had some, or any sense, of what MK was trying to do.

"Sadly I am only", you stated. What I find sad is that a nation that flies the colors and have burned for the Shrooms would think so little of themselves. I'm proud to fly the Legion flag and openly give allegiance to them in my signature. I also realize that when I speak in a public forum that my views can be said to represent my alliance. Are they the official pronouncements of Legion leadership? No, but when I say something I do so realizing that I'm contributing to the public face of my alliance.
[/quote]

I think this might just tromp Londos post as the most sensible in this thread.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320520020' post='2839741']
a few prominent members were ousted for multies
[/quote]

[i]One[/i], and finally.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Rayvon

[Caustic]

You're all getting epically trolled... and damn is it funny

props MK/VE, you truly are the masters

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Caustic' timestamp='1320521828' post='2839750']
You're all getting epically trolled... and damn is it funny

props MK/VE, you truly are the masters
[/quote]

Says the fly to the spiders.

[Caustic]

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1320522180' post='2839753']
Says the fly to the spiders.
[/quote]

come at us bro

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320520020' post='2839741']
I think it's quite a stretch to claim that this action by MK/VE is an attempt to secure peace for Tetris. Tetris has agreed to terms but refuses to leave the battlefield until NSO does.

The only thing keeping them on the battlefield is that they are too proud to leave an ally fighting. The only thing keeping their ally on the battlefield is that their ally is too proud to surrender (and [OOC] their emperor deleted and a few prominent members were ousted for multies [/OOC]).

Both Tetris and NSO are exhibiting hubris.

EDIT: Used a better adjective.
[/quote]

In my opinion, Tetris are guilty of being a sound ally for refusing to leave their allies on the battlefield. NSO are being too stubborn in insisting on remaining on it to the point of bringing about the destruction of Tetris. Hence why VE wanted to intervene with our leverage behind her. While we can debate the motivation behind this action in circles I'd rather not!

[quote name='LeonidasRexII' timestamp='1320520987' post='2839744']
So your opinions aren't shared by those in power within MK? And you as a "servant of the King" aren't privy or knowledgeable enough to speak to MK's foreign policy, is that right? Then from what basis did you form your opinion that MK was merely obliging a request from a friend? You may be just an individual knight, but you still fly the colors of the Castle Hall, and you proudly wear the name of the Mushroom Kingdom in your signature. So excuse me if I assumed incorrectly that you had some, or any sense, of what MK was trying to do.

"Sadly I am only", you stated. What I find sad is that a nation that flies the colors and have burned for the Shrooms would think so little of themselves. I'm proud to fly the Legion flag and openly give allegiance to them in my signature. I also realize that when I speak in a public forum that my views can be said to represent my alliance. Are they the official pronouncements of Legion leadership? No, but when I say something I do so realizing that I'm contributing to the public face of my alliance.
[/quote]

It was stated by members of our government earlier in this topic that our actions were simply obliging VE's request to end this war. That was my position and based on their stated stances in this topic. My opinions are concerning our supposed abandonment of all decency in order to commit abuses of power or as Londo put it imposing our "might" on alliances in CN for nefarious purposes. In my opinion, this action shouldn't be spun into black and white terms since as I stated previously we are just aiding VE in this endeavor. Lastly, you were taking my posts and construing them to be "official pronouncements" of MK leadership and I corrected you in saying I'm only a single shroom in a sea of shrooms.

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Caustic' timestamp='1320522429' post='2839755']
come at us bro
[/quote]

It's not us you have to worry about, but rather the ones who you labeled as "masters". Very apropos, because if the Big Daddy's don't like how you roll they'll come at you...Bro.

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1320522791' post='2839757']
It was stated by members of our government earlier in this topic that our actions were simply obliging VE's request to end this war. That was my position and based on their stated stances in this topic. My opinions are concerning our supposed abandonment of all decency in order to commit abuses of power or as Londo put it imposing our "might" on alliances in CN for nefarious purposes. In my opinion, this action shouldn't be spun into black and white terms since as I stated previously we are just aiding VE in this endeavor. Lastly, you were taking my posts and construing them to be "official pronouncements" of MK leadership and I corrected you in saying I'm only a single shroom in a sea of shrooms.
[/quote]

So you see no conflict between what MK is doing here and what they stood for in Karma? The reason being because they're only doing what someone else asked them to do?

Interesting concept. So if one of my friends asked me to, let's say, rob a bank, even though I'm opposed to taking money away from innocent people it's okay because "My friend asked me to do it"?

[bjalbert]

Good grief, I had to LOL at some of the logic being thrown around in this thread:

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320459115' post='2839204']Thank you all for indulging me. Maybe the solution is, for the planet to get healthy, we must 1st beat those who pollute it with radiation into submission. [/quote]
By using more radiation-producing nuclear weapons?

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320459115' post='2839204']Knowing that the physics on planet Bob run in 30 day cycles, it is short term damage to the environment for long term gain.[/quote]
So we are to believe that extending the war with the use of more nuclear weapons will help, as you made clear of the 30 day cycle that Bob revolves on?

In the same vein:
[quote name='MisterShadow' timestamp='1320515991' post='2839705']
Claimed Objective: Clean up forum garbage
Response: Create more[/quote]