Is This Legit?

[Ardus]

[quote name='Autocrat' timestamp='1313108870' post='2778069']
Evil puppeteer was a joke, a reference to the quote in my post.

Perhaps too much emphasis was placed on the analysis of the word, I'll concede- it only really has importance when coupled with your later comments on how SF is much "more likely" to cut your throat. I don't know you at all, so it's entirely possible that what you said about Mj in your most recent reply is true- but in what you said behind closed doors, your view certainly seems to be more negative.
[/quote]
Well, it was buried in the midst of a thread that was most interested in SuperFriends and, therefore, pretty negative on average. The surrounding content makes it look negative, which wasn't the intent.

If there's anything I've learned from this, it's that one shouldn't try to talk about people you have vastly different opinions of in one fell swoop. In the future I'll try to separate and take breaks between analyzing different groups.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Ardus

[Ardus]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1313109005' post='2778072']
So you just let yourself talk un-inhibited when you're tired like you were in the leaked post. That's pretty dangerous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwT9ltDBG14 For you
[/quote]
There's a reason I generally try to avoid staying on after update, though I've been breaking that rule far too much lately. You people have a bad habit of starting movements overnight.

Also, that song is surprisingly catchy.

[janax]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1313108330' post='2778051']
Oh never mind MJ, Ardus is just tired and gets cranky when he's tired. He's not out to make your influence marginal or anything it was a bad choice of words said in anger.
[/quote]


Step yo' game up Haf, HoT and Alterego. A new challenger has appeared.

[Port Royale]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1313025157' post='2777087']
Join GDA. They inherited the spirit of UBD.
[/quote]

Hehe, the MK love of UBD will never end... good times, good times

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1313103210' post='2777932']
You seem to be posting honestly, if TOP hits GOD is the ODP enough to prevent VE from countering?
[/quote]

If we didn't trust TOP enough to not attack our direct allies, we wouldn't have signed a treaty with them.

[berbers]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1313112096' post='2778124']
If we didn't trust TOP enough to not attack our direct allies, we wouldn't have signed a treaty with them.
[/quote]

Good point, in a way you just removed TOP as a threat to GOD, which in and of itself is a pretty good thing considering their stats :/

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1313108693' post='2778063']
The idea that Mjolnir is somehow bent on world domination is borderline laughable. Obviously, our bloc has some of the most aggressive and militarily competent alliances in them, but the military competency has come at the price of sustaining heavy losses over the years compared to some other alliances that have managed to avoid being directly involved in the slaughter.
[/quote]
If the alliances of Mjolnir think they have to be "bent on world domination" for the other dogs in town to want them marginalized, then you've got bigger problems than being listed for marginalization.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1313112096' post='2778124']
If we didn't trust TOP enough to not attack our direct allies, we wouldn't have signed a treaty with them.
[/quote]

Ah so you signed a treaty with an alliance that wants to see your direct allies dead to protect them? Thats so kind of you. I am sure GOD feels much better now. Of course if TOP did end up attacking GOD that little treaty of yours would pretty much end any chance of you all helping out GOD. I am sure that never crossed anybodys mind.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Autocrat' timestamp='1313106181' post='2777996']
....if Mj is really a tiny bloc with no aspirations of power and no way of getting it, why even include it in the post? What need is there to tell people that you'll remain powerless, if it's not a goal that they would work toward?
[/quote]

If the question was something like, "What about that new bloc Mj? Many of us are concerned for our security if they become a dominant power," then it makes perfect sense.

If I'm going to put on my tinfoil hat and get all paranoid about Ardus wanting to keep Mj as a smaller bloc relative to others, then I can't help but pause and say, "Wait a sec. We're already much smaller than the other blocs MK is tied to."

If that's his goal, then all I can say is, "Mission accomplished, Ardus. Good game."

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1313106681' post='2778017']
And if you'd read this thread you'd know it was a response to a question in our ally's embassy that asked not only what Ardus' plans were, but how his plans would involve MJ seeing as there was a lack of trust between their alliance and the bloc. Maybe that's why it was in the post!
[/quote]

Indeed.

And, as I rather strongly implied earlier, whichever alliance this may be I rather suspect their attitude may be based on a run-in with previous incarnations of Nordland.

Now, if what everyone is saying is correct and this was a response to a comment from someone in FOK, I can fully understand their concern. For a long time they were TGE's er....'facilitators'....and the TGE/NoR-NoV acrimony was well known. So sure, I can understand their concern. Looking at it the other way, TGE 1.0 got away with a hell of a lot that would have seen many other alliances ground them into a fine powder. This was largely because FOK was prepared to back them up, no matter how blatantly they infringed on our sovereignty. So I think FOK will understand if every now and then we cast a suspicious glance their way.

More than a year ago FOK and NoR fought side by side for the first time. I sent a message to FOK's leader which included the following:

[quote]On a more personal note, no one was more surprised than I at how well FOK/iFOK coordinated with NoR in the recent war. (And vice versa, I hope.) The positive reports from our side caused me to re-think my longstanding ambivalence regarding your alliance, both publicly and in Nordreich's government chambers.

I do not know that FOK and Nordreich will ever be friends, but I no longer consider you to be adversaries. Our shared struggle in this recent war counts for something. It does with me, anyway.[/quote]

Here is part of his reply:

[quote]However sad this may be, our respective alliances....have never been best of friends, for multiple reasons. Whatevever our differences, I do believe we both have earned our spot on this globe. Respect will always be there from us towards NoR....

<snip>

I understand [there will be obstacles] in ever achieving true friendship between our alliances. However I'd like to give you the assurance that FOK is in no way hostile to NoR, and would like to see us both co-exist in this world. Fighting for the same cause tends to create some sort of brotherhood eh?[/quote]

Many, many discussions between our respective alliances have occurred since then.

It may well be that some in the rank and file of both FOK and NoR continue to harbor ill feelings. I think I would be more surprised if this [i]weren't[/i] true, since no alliance I know of is able to control its members' thoughts. Random ill feelings are not alliance-wide hostility, however.

Something that is especially helpful in terms of our occasional discussions with FOK is that their leadership and our Kaiser quite literally "speak the same language." I imagine that has gone a long way in terms of avoiding unfortunate misunderstandings.

So if it really is something that was said in response to a FOK member's inquiry, I think it's safe to say that we undertsand why such an inquiry might be made and why Ardus responded as he did.



Now, before I close, I want to say that I very much appreciate the (completely phony) concern that so many have shown on our behalf. I regret to inform you, however, that your constant harping on this point will not bring you any appreciable results beyond exasperated replies from NoR and perhaps a bit of pointing and giggling from others.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1313116813' post='2778244']
Ah so you signed a treaty with an alliance that wants to see your direct allies dead to protect them? Thats so kind of you. I am sure GOD feels much better now. Of course if TOP did end up attacking GOD that little treaty of yours would pretty much end any chance of you all helping out GOD. I am sure that never crossed anybodys mind.
[/quote]

TOP wants GOD dead? You're really losing your touch.

[Aeros]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313116188' post='2778226']
If the alliances of Mjolnir think they have to be "bent on world domination" for the other dogs in town to want them marginalized, then you've got bigger problems than being listed for marginalization.
[/quote]

Well, obviously nobody likes a new variable. It thrusts them outside their comfort zones. I'm not in any major position of authority, and even I noticed the howls of rage from Superfriends when Mjolnir formed. Its clear that they do not like Mjolnir, and apparently the feeling is mutual. This does not equate however, to wanting world domination. I would argue that any bloc that does set out for total dominance would find themselves dealing with a more powerful coalition to stop them fairly quickly.

So obviously, nobody wants any one group to become too powerful either, so I think its a commonly accepted belief that all sides will try and marginalize the other, and of course, nobody "wants" to have all their tech and infrastructure blown up for somebody else, especially if somebody else is prepared to take the brunt of the battle. In that respect, I think Ardus is a highly competent leader and I give him major props for believing that is the line he should take. After all, any Alliance leader worth his/her salt MUST put the Alliance they lead before anyone else. Otherwise they are betraying the trust of the people who will inevitably follow them on whatever course they set.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Aeros

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313116188' post='2778226']
If the alliances of Mjolnir think they have to be "bent on world domination" for the other dogs in town to want them marginalized, then you've got bigger problems than being listed for marginalization.
[/quote]
You have a point. I'd just hope that the other power centers out there see us for what we are - a bunch of friends who just want to look out for each other. We're not looking to shake up relations in PB to bring ourselves more influence. We have no intention of being major power players. We just want to be there to help one another and settle injustices.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1313124533' post='2778380']
You have a point. I'd just hope that the other power centers out there see us for what we are - a bunch of friends who just want to look out for each other. We're not looking to shake up relations in PB to bring ourselves more influence. We have no intention of being major power players. We just want to be there to help one another and settle injustices.
[/quote]


I admire your optimism about it at least. But PB/DH has already shown they will roll an alliance they think is growing too large even if you aren't making any kind of aggressive political moves.

Right now the only upper tier that can take on an Umbrella/MK combination resides in the SF/XX sphere. Who, after two years of being closely allied to, and rolling others with MK/PB is suddenly immoral and not to be trusted?? Why SF and Fark of course, the very upper tier that could threaten them.

If your nations grow to a potentially threatening size, look out. You will find yourself on the short end of the MK/PB stick.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1313126211' post='2778410']
I admire your optimism about it at least. But PB/DH has already shown they will roll an alliance they think is growing too large even if you aren't making any kind of aggressive political moves.

Right now the only upper tier that can take on an Umbrella/MK combination resides in the SF/XX sphere. Who, after two years of being closely allied to, and rolling others with MK/PB is suddenly immoral and not to be trusted?? Why SF and Fark of course, the very upper tier that could threaten them.

If your nations grow to a potentially threatening size, look out. You will find yourself on the short end of the MK/PB stick.
[/quote]
Well then luckily for you TPF is in no such danger.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1313126322' post='2778414']
Well then luckily for you TPF is in no such danger.
[/quote]


Nah, we've had to fight way to much to grow to that level.

I don't blame MK for doing all this diplomatic leg work though. Unless things have vastly improved you guys have serious issues with about 2/3rd of your alliance doing more than logging in to collect taxes every 20 days, even in the midst of war.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1313105264' post='2777967']
I told everyone a few days ago MK wanted the GOONS-CSN treaty gone so GOONS would gladly oblige. I challenge you to prove you have ever done anything contrary to MK's will. Would you like to try?
[/quote]
We weren't too enthusiastic about them signing the CSN treaty in the first place. Does that count?

[quote name='Autocrat' timestamp='1313106181' post='2777996']
suggests that this might be an issue in the future, as it seems that MK at the very least both dislikes and distrusts you to some degree.

And finally, if Mj is really a tiny bloc with no aspirations of power and no way of getting it, why even include it in the post? What need is there to tell people that you'll remain powerless, if it's not a goal that they would work toward?
[/quote]
The context of his post was one where some in FOK had voiced a distrust and dislike of MJ. He was acknowledging that, and rather than trying to make it a big argument about MJ, he made that comparison to SF instead.

Some MK members [i]do[/i] distrust some members of MJ, though most view most of them positively. Some of our allies are less than keen on some of them too. Just because we don't argue the point in discussions like this doesn't mean that we agree with that point.

[Biff Webster]

Didn't Mj sort of accept a diminished role before this was even written? I don't see how anyone can get upset for Ardus calling it like it is.

[Letum]

[quote]
Since our reformation, one of our guiding principles has been "leaving well enough alone." However, others have, at various times, taken advantage of our good nature to infringe on our sovereignty.

There you go. Our 'bold plan for world domination' is defense of ourselves and our allies against people who have declared that they have some kind of vendetta against us.
[/quote]

I guess that explains why you gave your war against us a code-name that means "retaliation". I used to think it was joining in on an aggressive attack, but turns out you were just defending yourselves and your allies.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1313126211' post='2778410']
I admire your optimism about it at least. But PB/DH has already shown they will roll an alliance they think is growing too large even if you aren't making any kind of aggressive political moves.

Right now the only upper tier that can take on an Umbrella/MK combination resides in the SF/XX sphere. Who, after two years of being closely allied to, and rolling others with MK/PB is suddenly immoral and not to be trusted?? Why SF and Fark of course, the very upper tier that could threaten them.

If your nations grow to a potentially threatening size, look out. You will find yourself on the short end of the MK/PB stick.
[/quote]
I won't deny your point that MK, the other DH sigs and a bunch of alliances in PB are power players. Hell, they wouldn't deny it either. That being said, there's a stark contrast between us, a bloc that is pretty friendly with virtually everyone except SF and NPO, their sworn enemies.

To me, it's like telling someone to watch out for Bill because he punched his ex-wife's new flame in the face. If you're not dating his ex-wife, odds are he probably doesn't hate you. It's not perfect, but hey, it's 3AM.

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1313130115' post='2778455']
Didn't Mj sort of accept a diminished role before this was even written? I don't see how anyone can get upset for Ardus calling it like it is.
[/quote]
That'll be the reason a lot of us Mj people are sitting here scratching our heads about the (likely feigned) outrage on our behalf. I mean we're very flattered that so many people out there are concerned about our welfare and all, but they ought to chill.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1313131815' post='2778470']
I won't deny your point that MK, the other DH sigs and a bunch of alliances in PB are power players. Hell, they wouldn't deny it either. That being said, there's a stark contrast between us, a bloc that is pretty friendly with virtually everyone except SF and NPO, their sworn enemies.

To me, it's like telling someone to watch out for Bill because he punched his ex-wife's new flame in the face. If you're not dating his ex-wife, odds are he probably doesn't hate you. It's not perfect, but hey, it's 3AM.

[/quote]

Pretty friendly with MK/PB only lasts as long as they allow it. At one time they were pretty friendly with SF/XX. Now they have replaced those nations with others via the treaty web and they aren't so friendly with them at all.

The way I see it if you keep helping the fox catch the chickens, when he runs out of chickens he is going to eat you even if you don't want to eat him.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1313132147' post='2778471']
Pretty friendly with MK/PB only lasts as long as they allow it. At one time they were pretty friendly with SF/XX. Now they have replaced those nations with others via the treaty web and they aren't so friendly with them at all.
[/quote]
The ability of some people to project an MK-centric view about everything that happens would be impressive if it weren't so tiresome.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1313131815' post='2778470']
That'll be the reason a lot of us Mj people are sitting here scratching our heads about the (likely feigned) outrage on our behalf. I mean we're very flattered that so many people out there are concerned about our welfare and all, but they ought to chill.
[/quote]

Exactly. If you don't mind being MK's cupbearer, no one else should.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313132721' post='2778480']
The ability of some people to project an MK-centric view about everything that happens would be impressive if it weren't so tiresome.
[/quote]


Yes, because you guys hold no political sway at all. Your Prince's speech to FOK which appears to have spurred them into cancelling on Fark certainly doesn't show that you hold any sway.

[Natan]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1313133376' post='2778484']
Exactly. If you don't mind being MK's cupbearer, no one else should.
[/quote]

[b]cupbearer?[/b]

this whole time we were holding something else

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1313132147' post='2778471']
Pretty friendly with MK/PB only lasts as long as they allow it. At one time they were pretty friendly with SF/XX. Now they have replaced those nations with others via the treaty web and they aren't so friendly with them at all.

The way I see it if you keep helping the fox catch the chickens, when he runs out of chickens he is going to eat you even if you don't want to eat him.
[/quote]
The problem here is with the notion that Mj is within the MK/PB sphere of influence. We have much stronger ties to other parts of the web, namely AZTEC and Duckroll. I know that DT has always been quite amicable with MK and some members of PB. That does not mean that we consider ourselves bound to them nor do we expect them to think the same of us.

What I'm getting at is that a lot of us in Mjolnir don't really have an agenda that has much to do with MK and I think Ardus meant that his agenda doesn't have much to do with us. The fact is, we like each other quite a bit, but there's no real romance or hatred. If you're right and they decide to move against us one day down the road, that'll be fine, but it won't be because of Mj acting for power. I don't expect MK/PB to come knocking at our door a few months after SF gets knocked down because it's our turn to get punched.

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1313133376' post='2778484']
Exactly. If you don't mind being MK's cupbearer, no one else should.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why you think Mj is doing their bidding, mind elaborating? I presume that's what you meant, as I won't be handling any of their crotch protection...

Edited August 12, 2011 by MaGneT