The Nordic Spore Accords

[Alterego]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1309071121' post='2741752']
It's time to consult the Global Information Market™.
[/quote]
Is that what fark are calling their network of spies?

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1309055780' post='2741531']
This treaty is not bold, it is not innovative, it is not competitive, it is not brave. It's Pax Pacifica.
[/quote]

If I may be so bold as to give my opinion on why people see this as such a large step in politics. Nordreich has been something of a sleeping giant for some time. We have slowly but surely risen through the ranks and have spent much of our time flirting with a sanction position, but have not exerted ourselves as a political power. We have made plays here and there in global wars, but politics wise, we've been content to stick to ourselves and our own for the most part. I believe people see Mjolnir and this treaty as something of an omen of things to come for Nordreich and our sphere of influence. Yes, people are possibly reading more into it than need be, but there is no denying that Nordreich and her allies bring a massive amount of hitting power to any perceived "side" they may be placed on. And so, for those who get excited by hypotheticals, this could be quite exciting.

[Thrash]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1309081610' post='2741809']
Yes, people are possibly reading more into it than need be, but there is no denying that Nordreich and her allies bring a massive amount of hitting power to any perceived "side" they may be placed on.
[/quote]

I agree with this, but don't see the excitement from it that you claim. When you join a team that's all roided up already with massive hitting power, adding a little more doesn't make two !@#$% of a difference. In fact, it has quite the opposite effect: not excitement, but just plain old "blah."

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1309065958' post='2741689']
Ummm the world is probably at it's unipolar peak from a sheer percentage of NS perspective. All these blocs have overlapping treaties that tie them together as much as Q ever had.

Since Karma ended that was the FA goal by the current hegemony, first through the SF/CnG overlapping treaty fest that Xiph spoke of recently all the way through treaties like this.
[/quote]

That is wrong. To start, the primary concept behind Q and Pax Pacifica was Article III, clause B & G:

[quote]
B – An attack on one signatory shall be considered an attack on all signatories and will be met in defense by all other signatories with all means of assistance available. This assistance is mandatory and may not be overridden or mitigated by any means, including but not limited to conflicting agreements.

G – Signatories shall not engage in offensive military action against any alliance which a fellow signatory is obligated by treaty to defend. [/quote]

Which effectively means two things:

- Each alliance, besides their MDoAPs, also held a mandatory NAP with all the MDoAP partners of the other 11 signatories - which is virtually all the alliances in game minus the neutrals and a few isolated groups who were smashed because of that.

- Regardless of your treaties, if you hit any member of Q for treaty reasons, you could find yourself attacked eventually by your own allies. The concept of non-chaining was inexistent.

In second, the Age of Q was marked by a clear lack of loyalty. It wasn't out of the ordinary that once you stepped over the line you'd find yourself reasonably, if not completely, short on treaty partners - with the honourous mention to a few exceptions, but that's it.

As much as the world could be unipolar at the moment, which it isn't really, it could never be even close to what Q was.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Lusitan

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1309090353' post='2741831']
I agree with this, but don't see the excitement from it that you claim. When you join a team that's all roided up already with massive hitting power, adding a little more doesn't make two !@#$% of a difference. In fact, it has quite the opposite effect: not excitement, but just plain old "blah."
[/quote]
Tell that to the 13 page reaction to an ODP.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1309095903' post='2741858']
Tell that to the 13 page reaction to an ODP.
[/quote]

The 13 pages are a result not of excitement but rather people taking the opportunity to have their say about other related issues such as the politics Nordreich.

[AnCapistan]

All dogs deserve a pat on the head once and a while.

[Prodigal Moon]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1309081610' post='2741809']
If I may be so bold as to give my opinion on why people see this as such a large step in politics. Nordreich has been something of a sleeping giant for some time. We have slowly but surely risen through the ranks and have spent much of our time flirting with a sanction position, but have not exerted ourselves as a political power. We have made plays here and there in global wars, but politics wise, we've been content to stick to ourselves and our own for the most part. I believe people see Mjolnir and this treaty as something of an omen of things to come for Nordreich and our sphere of influence. Yes, people are possibly reading more into it than need be, but there is no denying that Nordreich and her allies bring a massive amount of hitting power to any perceived "side" they may be placed on. And so, for those who get excited by hypotheticals, this could be quite exciting.
[/quote]
I can't speak for anyone else, but my interest was much less about Nordreich itself, and more about the fact that this large new bloc has just formed, and now immediately ties itself directly to the most powerful cluster... which is itself tied to nearly every other cluster. So excitement isn't really the word, more like disappointment that people continue to blanket the world in treaties, especially just when a legitimate point of tension appeared to arise. Between this and ex-Synergy being tied into C&G, none of you are really in a position to declare war on anyone other than neutrals or the orders - which is probably just how certain people want it.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1309058261' post='2741580']
Or roll Polar again.
[/quote]
I'm game.

[Ayatollah Bromeini]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1308939907' post='2740560']
You should probably explain why German-themed alliances should have every single member closely scrutinized for possible racist OOC activities, yet Communist-themed alliances can operate as they see fit, without individual scrutiny, using all sorts of imagery of mass murderers and crushing totalitarian regimes "for fun" and to support their alliance theme.

[i]OOC: Not just you of course, but other members of the this gaming community as well.[/i]

The double standard is breath taking.
[/quote]


I understand what you're saying here kind of, but im not sure if I agree.

[OCC][i]When vast amounts of people die under so called "communist" regimes, something has gone horribly wrong, because communism is not a murderous ideology. When people are killed under fascism/nazism, everything has gone according to plan, because those ideologies call for ethnic cleansings and the like, so it's not fair to say that a communist themed alliance is just as bad as a fascist/nazi themed one. Not saying that NoR has such a theme, of course.[/[/i]OCC]

Just my two cents.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Ayatollah Bromeini

[Auctor]

I like the part of the thread where the Japanese militarism themed alliance guy said Nordreich's theme was distasteful.

'grats NoR, cool to see you going where yall want with stuff.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Auctor' timestamp='1309106648' post='2741949']
I like the part of the thread where the Japanese militarism themed alliance guy said Nordreich's theme was distasteful.

'grats NoR, cool to see you going where yall want with stuff.
[/quote]

you're not talking about Ronin are you?

cause if so that's a feudal Japanese theme, not Imperial/militarism (two complete differnet things and times)

Edited June 26, 2011 by Lurunin

[Bob]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1309112017' post='2742007']
you're not talking about Ronin are you?

cause if so that's a feudal Japanese theme, not Imperial/militarism (two complete differnet things and times)
[/quote]
And Nordreich is [ooc]WW1 themed and not WW2 themed.[/ooc]

Those are separate and distinct times, just like feudal Japan v militaristic Japan are.

[Ayatollah Bromeini]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1309112511' post='2742020']
And Nordreich is [ooc]WW1 themed and not WW2 themed.[/ooc]

Those are separate and distinct times, just like feudal Japan v militaristic Japan are.
[/quote]

I believe you're thinking of TGE, broski.


NoR doesn't really have a specific time period theme as far as I know. I believe they embrace all aspects of German history and culture perhaps.

[Bob]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1309113160' post='2742032']
I believe you're thinking of TGE, broski.


NoR doesn't really have a specific time period theme as far as I know. I believe they embrace all aspects of German history and culture perhaps.
[/quote]
NoR hovers more around WW1 from what I've seen (I don't really pay attention to people's themes very well) and thus my comments.

[ImperialCubanacan]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1309114317' post='2742049']
NoR hovers more around WW1 from what I've seen (I don't really pay attention to people's themes very well) and thus my comments.
[/quote]

Nordreich is Norse/Germanic themed; not particular to any point of time. However, the government and nobility system is that of Pre-WWI and WWI era. Thus, Kaiser, Kronprinz -- etc. I had an at length discussion regarding the theme, standards, origin, symbology, ideology and structure -- elsewhere, back in January with NAC; their alliance and myself got rather close and we still are.

Those sorts of civil discussions are quite intellectually stimulating. And I think Shavar, Vrangor, Hellbilly and Thom for their questions and friendship.

[Subcomandante VL]

At first I was like:

[img]http://i51.tinypic.com/2ptrtpl.gif[/img]


Then I was like, meh, expected.


Edit: Broken link.

Edited June 27, 2011 by VladimirLenin

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1309102528' post='2741915']
I can't speak for anyone else, but my interest was much less about Nordreich itself, and more about the fact that this large new bloc has just formed, and now immediately ties itself directly to the most powerful cluster... which is itself tied to nearly every other cluster. So excitement isn't really the word, more like disappointment that people continue to blanket the world in treaties, especially just when a legitimate point of tension appeared to arise. Between this and ex-Synergy being tied into C&G, none of you are really in a position to declare war on anyone other than neutrals or the orders - which is probably just how certain people want it.
[/quote]
Completely wrong. Everything revolves around me. I mean Nordreich. We are the center of the world.

[Solaris]

Very nice, the kids will love this treaty to death.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1309113160' post='2742032']
I believe you're thinking of TGE, broski.


NoR doesn't really have a specific time period theme as far as I know. I believe they embrace all aspects of German history and culture perhaps.[/quote]

Correct. While much of the imagery they've used over time include a significant portion of German nationalist themes, it is more "Germanic" in the larger sense, and not necessarily tied to a specific nationality in a specific era. Unfortunately, some people take this to mean 'Aryan' and thus tie it to Nazis, but they are by no means one in the same.

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1309105575' post='2741941']
I understand what you're saying here kind of, but im not sure if I agree.

[OCC][i]When vast amounts of people die under so called "communist" regimes, something has gone horribly wrong, because communism is not a murderous ideology. When people are killed under fascism/nazism, everything has gone according to plan, because those ideologies call for ethnic cleansings and the like, so it's not fair to say that a communist themed alliance is just as bad as a fascist/nazi themed one. Not saying that NoR has such a theme, of course.[/[/i]OCC]

Just my two cents.[/quote]

Agreeing to disagree is fine, but a reasoned dialog on the issue is certainly healthy and I welcome it.

[i]OOC: With respect...Stalin and his henchmen orchestrated the execution of millions of people over the years, including the deliberate starving of Ukrainian peasants, forced relocations of whole ethnic groups (which resulted in many deaths), constructed gulags that were as brutal as any German concentration camp, etc., and all of it was done "according to plan". What separates the two primarily is the fact that the USSR had decades to destroy/cover up/hide the evidence, so we're still finding out the extent of just how brutal things were. Similar stories have played out under Mao, Pol Pot, and other infamous authoritarian Communist regimes. "Well at least they weren't racist" isn't entirely true either and wouldn't excuse mass murder regardless. [/i]

Edited June 27, 2011 by ChairmanHal

[Conformist Maryland]

My brain just melted.

[Alterego]

Selective outrage. Why no hate for the CCC? [ooc]the crusades, the inquisition and 2 millennia of rhe most heinous and nasty crap[ooc] but no hate for the CCC. Go figure

[NoFish]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1309190698' post='2742726']
Correct. While much of the imagery they've used over time include a significant portion of German nationalist themes, it is more "Germanic" in the larger sense, and not necessarily tied to a specific nationality in a specific era. Unfortunately, some people take this to mean 'Aryan' and thus tie it to Nazis, but they are by no means one in the same.



Agreeing to disagree is fine, but a reasoned dialog on the issue is certainly healthy and I welcome it.

[i]OOC: With respect...Stalin and his henchmen orchestrated the execution of millions of people over the years, including the deliberate starving of Ukrainian peasants, forced relocations of whole ethnic groups (which resulted in many deaths), constructed gulags that were as brutal as any German concentration camp, etc., and all of it was done "according to plan". What separates the two primarily is the fact that the USSR had decades to destroy/cover up/hide the evidence, so we're still finding out the extent of just how brutal things were. Similar stories have played out under Mao, Pol Pot, and other infamous authoritarian Communist regimes. "Well at least they weren't racist" isn't entirely true either and wouldn't excuse mass murder regardless. [/i]
[/quote]
[i]OOC: What about communist governments that didn't execute people? Allende comes to mind.[/i]

[Branimir]

IC: Congrats. Have fun with it,...just not on us


[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1309190698' post='2742726'][i]OOC: With respect...Stalin and his henchmen orchestrated the execution of millions of people over the years, including the deliberate starving of Ukrainian peasants, forced relocations of whole ethnic groups (which resulted in many deaths), constructed gulags that were as brutal as any German concentration camp, etc., and all of it was done "according to plan". What separates the two primarily is the fact that the USSR had decades to destroy/cover up/hide the evidence,,....
[/quote]
OOC: Either you are being intentionally obtuse, or just didn't get the comment (although its very clear, hence my starter which could seem harsh), let me explain it to you and how your post in its intended punch line, missed entirely. The original post you quoted, that holds an incredibly good thought and I think its very effective (I dont know if its posters or he quoted somebody else, but its a great line), indicates the fundamental differences between two ideologies under which horrible crimes were committed, from which it comes to light why its not controversial to glorify one of those ideologies and why it is the other, which on first glance would seem contradictory. Reason obvious from the original post is, that communism is for all intents and purposes summarization of all positive ideals towards which humans usually aspire. Fascism/nazism, isn't, it is from its intended design an anti-human endeavor. So, as it would stand from the original post, all those quasi-communist criminals are to be judged heavily on, as their fascism/nazism partners in crime, so it would be controversial to praise Stalin as much as Hitler, the differences come when somebody isn't doing that but is drawing from the ideologies directly. One is positive but got raped by criminals, the other isn't and got played out exactly as intended.

Anyway, indeed, this is a game. Why I responded here OOC was just to not let a great thought which is effective in its purpose, get responded to entirely wrongly. My opinions on NoR, and I think its the same for any reasonable players here as well, have nothing to do with the theme they like to play under and that is the best and only argument here to use--- keep that out. Not try to actually argue it, or justify something, or whatever, at least not in this venue...so we get lines indicating as if WW2 nazi nationalism came out of vacuum of space and didn't actually draw upon pre nazi German nationalism, so its so much different, etc. There is a reason why contemporary Germans are so reserved about this all and their patriotism with having problems expressing it, and that is it historically pushed some aspects which are inherent to all nationalisms to extremes, so its as such tainted heavily even if it in its contemporary form among todays Germans is one healthy moderate feeling, it is hard to base it on much that stench of unhealthy nationalism before didn't destroy so in many ways they need to reinvent it. Yes, its not because they are "weaklings" as somebody of probably weak mind said not understanding the matter at all. It is because of very practical difficulties that come from trying to express something healthy now without the stench of the previous sick body previously attached to it. Just play the theme if its fun for you, and its very iconographic, and let we all leave historical discussions out of it.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Branimir

[shahenshah]

[quote name='VladimirLenin' timestamp='1309144027' post='2742413']
At first I was like:

[img]http://i51.tinypic.com/2ptrtpl.gif[/img]


Then I was like, meh, expected.


Edit: Broken link.
[/quote]

You're just meh because Mushriech got the upper hand over Komune here.

[size="1"]Note: cant see pic[/size]