A Statement from Doomhouse

[Dr Beefstupid]

Enough! Nobody is saying anything new. It's just recycled arguments for 70 pages.

Here's the mind-numbing simplicity of it:
Doomhouse is going to win this war either way. If NPO hides in peace mode until their lower-tier nations are all rubble, that's fine with us. If they want to come out of peace mode and fight, we'll reward their bravery with no terms. Saying we're whining is pathetic. If anything, having them come out of peace mode means more damage done to Doomhouse. Staying in peace mode just means we're blasting away their lowers with impunity.

They can stay in peace mode or come out and fight. Either way we're going to enjoy this.

Easy enough to grasp? Good.

End.
Thread.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1300479853' post='2669309']
MK received quite a few of the reps that NPO sent out.
[/quote]
Given to us by our allies to compensate for the reps we paid after NoCB.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300477710' post='2669270']
You're a few dozen pages too late to try and bring up this "why should we trust you" excuse. It was already debated and dismissed.

To recap for you, what holds us to our word is what holds [i][b]anyone[/b][/i] to their word on [i][b]any[/b][/i] peace term. If we didn't do what we said we'd be subject to ridicule and most likely attack. Do you also show up in threads to ask what's going to hold everyone to their word that they won't re-enter on a front?
[/quote]

Dismissed by the side it benefits, as if that means anything. Your side doesn't get to claim everything is the same when you attacked without reason and when your peace demands require your enemies to give up their one advantage and then subject themselves to massive destruction. You waived your right to be trusted when you started this pathetic war of paranoia.

[janax]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1300479853' post='2669309']
MK received quite a few of the reps that NPO sent out.
[/quote]


Via C&G, not of their own negotiating, if I recall correctly.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300478775' post='2669289']
No really, this discussion is about 30 pages too late. If you want to keep this up, go back in time please. Only the most paranoid of our detractors think we'd post "loljk" on the OWF and open ourselves up to being Karmaed.
[/quote]

The funny thing about this argument here is that alliances on your side called NPOs appology thread to FAN a joke, or statments to that effect, both sides are clearly trying to negate the others PR attempt, bringing it to the OWF is just asking for negative comments, this much was said on NPOs appology. All this really amounts to though is "look, we're not so bad, we'll end it if they fight out of peace mode!" and it's not won anyone over for you has it? So what's stoping your Karma coming?

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1300479029' post='2669297']
A Casus Belli is simply a justification of war. In this case, that NPO was as big a threat on the flanks of the war that they could easily join through Legion (who also remained out under much more conspicuous terms) as they were if they were actively involved in it. Doomhouse could enter the war against NpO to assist Pandora's Box, and it would leave it's flanks open to Legion and NPO, TPF, Invicta, etc.
[/quote]

I know that a CB is a justification of war, but what you are saying now is what you spoke out against during the BiPolor war (pre-empting) but this argument has been done to death, no need to hear it again.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Kerlan' timestamp='1300479031' post='2669298']
Also: What LittleRena said.
[/quote]
It's funny that Legionnaires now have trust issues with quite clear-cut peace terms, when your alliance already has experience of accepting a peace agreement of indefinite reps and viceroyalty from an alliance that had been gunning for you for over a year even after receiving record breaking reps of the time.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Lord Gobb

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1300479911' post='2669310']
...that's fine with us...
[/quote]

Clearly it's not otherwise their wouldn't be a need for a callout

[mattski133]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1300480159' post='2669319']
I know that a CB is a justification of war, but what you are saying now is what you spoke out against during the BiPolor war (pre-empting) but this argument has been done to death, no need to hear it again.
[/quote]

If you don't want to talk about it don't bring itup there "Little ToNoCB".

See what I did there it was like a play on words.

I defer to my customary communication with NPO members: SURRENDER IMMEDIATELY.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1300480520' post='2669328']
If you don't want to talk about it don't bring itup there "Little ToNoCB".
[/quote]

I can talk about it if you want but it'd be nothing new.

TOP and co preempted alliances they thought where going to enter, they took a lot of flak from the OWF for it, just as DH took flak for their preempt on NPO, that's really my point, the only CB is paranoia, unless you had intel to suggest that NPO where going to enter but that would be admitting to spying.

If paranoia is your justification for the war, that's fine, that's your decision and it's NPOs decision on how they defend themselves and what they decide to do with your offer.

But I recall at one point the stance of DH was the destruction of NPO and now things have changed? You are willing to offer them a way out by a few rounds of war with their upper tier? Also, what of NPOs allies?

If you wanted to fight on level terms without nations in peacemode though, you should have just declared on each other, if all you wanted was fun.

[Jaiar]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1300479911' post='2669310']
Enough! Nobody is saying anything new. It's just recycled arguments for 70 pages.

Here's the mind-numbing simplicity of it:
Doomhouse is going to win this war either way. If NPO hides in peace mode until their lower-tier nations are all rubble, that's fine with us. If they want to come out of peace mode and fight, we'll reward their bravery with no terms. Saying we're whining is pathetic. If anything, having them come out of peace mode means more damage done to Doomhouse. Staying in peace mode just means we're blasting away their lowers with impunity.

They can stay in peace mode or come out and fight. Either way we're going to enjoy this.

Easy enough to grasp? Good.

End.
Thread.
[/quote]
You can blast away. My bills are less than 3k right now. My nation can stay alive simply by collecting. Don't have to pay bills. I can do this long term. It's no big deal to me. 1000 days from today all I would need is one $3mil aid pack to pay my bills.

This war is a stalemate. You can't destroy our nations anymore than we can destroy yours. We can sit and get to peace mode or if you guys are capable enough keep rotating nations in to prevent that, but no matter what it won't destroy us. We have more resolve than any alliance around. We can do this long term and effectively have peace and go about things business as usual.

Our top nations will collect less money sure, but the -14 happiness / -28 income is offset by 3 wonders (Internet, Great Temple, and Great Monument). Our top nations have those. So yeah, they will collect less money every collection but they are by no means having "negative" collections like some people seem to be implying.

You'll have to come up with better arguments. My nation has 5 wars, but effectively my alliance is at peace. You can ZI and ZT my nation and take all the land and every cent. That's all you will take. Do you understand? You can't win.

[Arcades057]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1300479911' post='2669310']
Enough! Nobody is saying anything new. It's just recycled arguments for 70 pages.

Here's the mind-numbing simplicity of it:
Doomhouse is going to win this war either way. If NPO hides in peace mode until their lower-tier nations are all rubble, that's fine with us. If they want to come out of peace mode and fight, we'll reward their bravery with no terms. Saying we're whining is pathetic. If anything, having them come out of peace mode means more damage done to Doomhouse. Staying in peace mode just means we're blasting away their lowers with impunity.

They can stay in peace mode or come out and fight. Either way we're going to enjoy this.

Easy enough to grasp? Good.

End.
Thread.
[/quote]

That plan sure did work for the Gramlins.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Arcades057' timestamp='1300484720' post='2669394']
That plan sure did work for the Gramlins.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Umbrella, MK, and GOONS aren't Gremlins. Most Gremlin nations cared about things like PR and morality, which most in DH could not care less about. It is doubtful that their members will leave over this. Not in droves anyway. One or two oddballs, but still unlikely even that. My point it, it is futile to try and argue the ethics of their ultimatum when they don't care the slightest about such things. You can try to fight it, sure, but arguing it won't do a thing.[/color]

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1300479911' post='2669310']
Enough! Nobody is saying anything new. It's just recycled arguments for 70 pages.

*Typical Rhetoric*

End.
Thread.
[/quote]

No!

We need a lot more pages to show the idiocy of Outhouse threads like these. Perhaps after you see the absurdity of trying to push weak propaganda announcements onto the masses you won't do it anymore. If you hate how this announcement has evolved (just like the last ones, btw) you might tell your leaders to quit trying to stand on a soapbox trying to appeal to masses. If they resort to this stuff because they cannot get any traction in official talks then you might point out that it might be smart to negotiate better, instead of hoping drivel like this will work.

This is your war. You started it. Learn to live with the consequences.

This is your announcement. You started it. Learn to live with the consequences.

Edited March 18, 2011 by +Zeke+

[Kyaris]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1300484195' post='2669384']
You can blast away. My bills are less than 3k right now. My nation can stay alive simply by collecting. Don't have to pay bills. I can do this long term. It's no big deal to me. 1000 days from today all I would need is one $3mil aid pack to pay my bills.

This war is a stalemate. You can't destroy our nations anymore than we can destroy yours. We can sit and get to peace mode or if you guys are capable enough keep rotating nations in to prevent that, but no matter what it won't destroy us. We have more resolve than any alliance around. We can do this long term and effectively have peace and go about things business as usual.

Our top nations will collect less money sure, but the -14 happiness / -28 income is offset by 3 wonders (Internet, Great Temple, and Great Monument). Our top nations have those. So yeah, they will collect less money every collection but they are by no means having "negative" collections like some people seem to be implying.

You'll have to come up with better arguments. My nation has 5 wars, but effectively my alliance is at peace. You can ZI and ZT my nation and take all the land and every cent. That's all you will take. Do you understand? You can't win.
[/quote]

No see that means we've already won. NPO is now a neutral alliance.

[flak attack]

[quote name='KingEsus' timestamp='1300475907' post='2669229']
Are you seriously attacking him for being in peace mode? Two months on, seriously? You know he's following orders. Branimir has been fighting for 5 years, his casualty figures prove he's not averse to a bit of rough'n'tumble. Such a horrible personal attack from someone so ... mediocre.
[/quote]
5 years and not even 900k casualties? I'm going to call BS on this comment.

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1300476530' post='2669243']
Not sure why DH even bothers asking for our upper tiers to come out of peace mode. It did not happen during the Armageddon war and that conflict we were in much worst shape politically and militarily.
[/quote]
I assure you, you're fighting a much more tenacious group than you were then. We will have our pound of flesh.

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1300480011' post='2669315']
Via C&G, not of their own negotiating, if I recall correctly.
[/quote]
That's correct. We were given tech that otherwise would have gone to members of CnG and Ragnarok (and possibly one or two others) had they not offered it to us.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1300484195' post='2669384']
Our top nations will collect less money sure, but the -14 happiness / -28 income is offset by 3 wonders (Internet, Great Temple, and Great Monument). Our top nations have those. So yeah, they will collect less money every collection but they are by no means having "negative" collections like some people seem to be implying.
[/quote]
Your income is halved on top of that after a short time in peace mode. That's not just -14 happiness.


[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1300485425' post='2669410']
[color="#0000FF"]Umbrella, MK, and GOONS aren't Gremlins. Most Gremlin nations cared about things like PR and morality, which most in DH could not care less about. It is doubtful that their members will leave over this. Not in droves anyway. One or two oddballs, but still unlikely even that. My point it, it is futile to try and argue the ethics of their ultimatum when they don't care the slightest about such things. You can try to fight it, sure, but arguing it won't do a thing.[/color]
[/quote]
On top of that, NPO is no IRON. DH has even gained nations during the war.

[Banksy]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1300478246' post='2669279']
Then that is a horrible way to try to analyze a situation. Obviously % of NS in PM will increase to near 100% as a losing war goes on. You could have large nation in PM and it account for the majority of your NS over time if you're in a losing war. Also the figure of NS is wrong.

Top 40 nations in MK. 1,861,355NS in PM

1861355/6,732,538 = 27%

Considering that is just looking at the top 40 mk nations it would seem intuitively obviously far greater than the stated 18% is in PM across the entire alliance. I'd guess closer to 50%.
[/quote]
the figures were for all of doomhouse and were correct at the time of posting. i haven't checked them since.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Banksy

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1300478808' post='2669290']
First of all, it was the mk guy that stated 18%. - A figure you state is at least almost half of the true number you estimate. I'm saying that if 27% of the total MK ns is in pm in just the top 40 nations. I find it highly unlikely that your figure of 30% - 3% difference makes any sense. Saying that another 50 nations in PM only account for 3% of the total NS of MK is foolish.

Top 40 nations in MK. 1,861,355NS in PM

1861355/6,732,538 = 27%

Either way the mk guy was clearly wrong, by your figures or mine. That was my point.
[/quote]
The figures stated by Banksy represent all of doomhouse, not just MK.

edit: Banksy got there first.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Ryuzaki

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300485845' post='2669419']
No see that means we've already won. NPO is now a neutral alliance.
[/quote]

That victory happened back during Karma then you came back and forced an essentially neutral alliance into war.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Ragashingo

[Jaiar]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1300485979' post='2669421']
Your income is halved on top of that after a short time in peace mode. That's not just -14 happiness.
[/quote]
I think I made a mistake. It says -9 happiness max after 14 days so that would be -18 income.

But below it says nothing about income being cut in half. Please inform me of where your information is and I will look at it.

[b]National Peace/War Preference - The Peace/War Preference option allows you to specify whether or not you want to allow other nations to declare war on you and attack your nation or to play the game as a peaceful nation. Keeping your nation in peace mode for prolonged periods of time will damage your nation's economy. New nations get a 7 day grace period when in peace mode to allow them to learn the game without receiving any economic penalties. If your nation is older than 7 days and you remain in peace mode for more than:

4 days = -3 population happiness
6 days = -5 population happiness
8 days = -6 population happiness
10 days = -7 population happiness
12 days = -8 population happiness
14 days = -9 population happiness

There is also an additional economic penalty on top of the population happiness penalty if your nation is in peace mode for more than 5 days. A nation in peace mode may not send foreign aid, however it will be allowed to continue to receive foreign aid. Nations that are in peace mode may purchase up to 2 navy vessels per day compared to nations that are in war mode who may purchase up to 5 navy vessels per day. In order to exit peace mode nations are required to collect taxes on the day that they wish to change out of peace mode. [/b]

[Judge X]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1300479911' post='2669310']
Enough! Nobody is saying anything new. It's just recycled arguments for 70 pages.

Here's the mind-numbing simplicity of it:
Doomhouse is going to win this war either way. If NPO hides in peace mode until their lower-tier nations are all rubble, that's fine with us. If they want to come out of peace mode and fight, we'll reward their bravery with no terms. Saying we're whining is pathetic. If anything, having them come out of peace mode means more damage done to Doomhouse. Staying in peace mode just means we're blasting away their lowers with impunity.

They can stay in peace mode or come out and fight. Either way we're going to enjoy this.

Easy enough to grasp? Good.

End.
Thread.
[/quote]
See how you feel in 6 months.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1300485425' post='2669410']
[color="#0000FF"]Umbrella, MK, and GOONS aren't Gremlins. Most Gremlin nations cared about things like PR and morality, which most in DH could not care less about. It is doubtful that their members will leave over this. Not in droves anyway. One or two oddballs, but still unlikely even that. My point it, it is futile to try and argue the ethics of their ultimatum when they don't care the slightest about such things. You can try to fight it, sure, but arguing it won't do a thing.[/color]
[/quote]

Sure their alliances wont end up like Gremlins and fair enough DH might not care about PR and morality, but who knows the longer they keep up with their massive PR disaster after disaster they wont gain friends they will steadily end up losing them and the treaty web will thin out on their side. It may or may not happen i cant see into the future but its a possibility... Those that say thats aload of crap, look at the history its happend.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1300486236' post='2669424']
The figures stated by Banksy represent all of doomhouse, not just MK.

edit: Banksy got there first.
[/quote]
Considering there are around 160-200 nations in Doomhouse that are younger than the actual war (less than 45 days old), that statistic would seem to be pretty biased.

[flak attack]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1300486529' post='2669433']
Considering there are around 160-200 nations in Doomhouse that are younger than the actual war (less than 45 days old), that statistic would seem to be pretty biased.
[/quote]
Those nations also represent a minuscule portion of our ns, so no, they really aren't.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1300486464' post='2669429']
But below it says nothing about income being cut in half. Please inform me of where your information is and I will look at it.

snip
[/quote]
[b]There is also an additional economic penalty on top of the population happiness penalty if your nation is in peace mode for more than 5 days.[/b]

That's what that means. Having this discussion with you makes me question the quality of your alliance's entry exams and guides.

[Bob Janova]

Jaiar: you are missing this sentence: "There is also an additional economic penalty on top of the population happiness penalty if your nation is in peace mode for more than 5 days." Peace mode gets pretty painful pretty fast, although you won't get bill locked with decent wonders – but you will have net collections of close to zero.

I don't really like all this 'come out and fight', whether it's NPO telling GATO or FAN to do it or you people telling them to do it. What it smacks of is having no clear objective beyond bloodlust, because there isn't an objective (beyond beating NPO up) which is served by such a demand. FAN showed that an alliance can refuse such a demand for a long time and be a major economic nuisance, so I would caution against pushing NPO to the wall. You seem proud of having spent $5 billion on it already – but moving $5 billion a month, every month, to keep up a war of occupation until NPO come out of peace mode will cost you more than it will them.

The war which you pre-empted NPO for not entering (or something like that) is over, I am not sure why you seem to want to make this part of it a long term drain on your resources.

[Banksy]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1300486529' post='2669433']
Considering there are around 160-200 nations in Doomhouse that are younger than the actual war (less than 45 days old), that statistic would seem to be pretty biased.
[/quote]
yes, and they have a tiny NS so it doesn't really affect us. the figure for the NPO is not, however, compromised in any way. the point is that the NPO has not come out to fight. some DH members have entered PM to restock or for 'other realm' reasons, but we are fighting, whereas the NPO is staying in PM.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Banksy