A Statement from Doomhouse

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1300496123' post='2669640']
That would have involved you helping your most loyal, dedicated, and almost longest ally. Yeah that wouldn't have happened.
[/quote]

So says the sitting puppet. I just wish the rest of Hydra would see the strings. You're disgusting, and I'm abhorred to have ever called you an ally.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1300496123' post='2669640']
That would have involved you helping your most loyal, dedicated, and almost longest ally. Yeah that wouldn't have happened.
[/quote]

You would have us help the very people who have openly said they would want to see us destroyed?

Come on Jacapo does the Kool-aid taste that good?

Edited March 19, 2011 by kevin32891

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300487182' post='2669445']
I don't really like all this 'come out and fight', whether it's NPO telling GATO or FAN to do it or you people telling them to do it. What it smacks of is having no clear objective beyond bloodlust, because there isn't an objective (beyond beating NPO up) which is served by such a demand.
[/quote]
In my mind, the objective is standing up and saying no, Bob is not going to stand for this "hide from wars and wait for white peace" nonsense.

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300500146' post='2669702']
In my mind, the objective is standing up and saying no, Bob is not going to stand for this "hide from wars and wait for white peace" nonsense.
[/quote]

So, you're just going to destroy the ebil NPO anyway? Both methods, waiting and striking immediately, speak to your ultimate wish to beat the living daylights out of NPO regardless of how you go about it. The question most people have on their mind is "Why do you want them dead?" Hiding or not, that was your desire.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Jake Liebenow

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1300496123' post='2669640']
That would have involved you helping your most loyal, dedicated, and almost longest ally. Yeah that wouldn't have happened.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Had it been helping you, yes it would have. But would we have helped your other allies beat on Polaris and STA, who happen to be some of our closest non-allies? Absolutely not. Especially considering those who had attacked them had threatened us in the past. That and we disagreed with their rubbish CB.

Also, you really weren't in dire need of help. Against LoSS and TIO (I think that's who you were at war with), with SLCB and iFOK also on your front. No, I didn't think so either.[/color]

Edited March 19, 2011 by Rebel Virginia

[Dagrr]

[quote name='Antonio Salovega VI' timestamp='1300494381' post='2669608']
Snip
[/quote]

Two can play this game...

I have more causalities than you. Your argument is invalid sir.

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1300501010' post='2669717']
[color="#0000FF"]Had it been helping you, yes it would have. But would we have helped your other allies beat on Polaris and STA, who happen to be some of our closest non-allies? Absolutely not. Especially considering those who had attacked them had threatened us in the past. That and we disagreed with their rubbish CB.[/color]
[/quote]

Closest Non-Allies. That was the kicker. You felt more of a loyalty toward people who A.) Had screwed you in the past (Polaris) and B.)Were not allies....



As well, Ragnarok had just gotten done leading the crusade to stomp your faces into the ground during the summer. Guess who was on Polars side?


EDIT: You forget that we had no clue CSN and Legacy would barrel in to help us. They did that on their own with ZERO communication with us. We were fighting LoSS one on one, and they outnumbered us two fold. Nah, we did not need your help, you were much more willing to sit on the sidelines and not get involved, leaving us to rot. (Doomhouse would not go on to hit NPO for several days)

Edited March 19, 2011 by Jacapo Saladin

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1300498003' post='2669668']
So says the sitting puppet. I just wish the rest of Hydra would see the strings. You're disgusting, and I'm abhorred to have ever called you an ally.
[/quote]


But we were your allies, and we would have done more for you than any of your other allies. You never repaid that loyalty nor would you ever have thought of doing that. It was a one sides relationship and it was going to stay that way until we cancelled.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1300501584' post='2669727']
Closest Non-Allies. That was the kicker. You felt more of a loyalty toward people who A.) Had screwed you in the past (Polaris) and B.)Were not allies....



As well, Ragnarok had just gotten done leading the crusade to stomp your faces into the ground during the summer. Guess who was on Polars side?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]RoK is one alliance. On the opposing side we had MK, VE, iFOK, GOD, CSN, and a whole slew of others. Some may not have entered, but anyone with a brain could have seen where the war was going.

Then we had our other two allies, NPO and TPF. TPF was going to enter eventually, due to their treaty with STA. NPO was also very well going to be on that side whether they wanted to or not. All of the alliances we were close to were on one side, with Hydra being the exception. Understand, the NSO feels nothing against Hydra, and we still have high thoughts of you. I do. But we had to make a choice. We knew which side we had to join and what the consequences of it would be.

I do not blame you for helping SLCB and the others whom you had grown closer to. You helped your friends and allies, whereas we helped ours, or as many as we could. Because NSO sure wasn't going to pull a Grub and fight on both sides.[/color]

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1300500769' post='2669712']
So, you're just going to destroy the ebil NPO anyway? Both methods, waiting and striking immediately, speak to your ultimate wish to beat the living daylights out of NPO regardless of how you go about it. [b]The question most people on everyone's mind is "Why do you want them dead?" Hiding or not, that was your desire.[/b]
[/quote]
That is what I have been wondering since Doomhouse's DoW.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1300501884' post='2669733']
But we were your allies, and we would have done more for you than any of your other allies. You never repaid that loyalty nor would you ever have thought of doing that. It was a one sides relationship and it was going to stay that way until we cancelled.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Oh, we were going to help you if you went into help FEAR. I know what we said to you, that we didn't want to get in. We had just gotten rolled, were internally unstable and disorganized, and a war very likely would have killed us at that time. Especially fighting over NEW's stupid decision to attack a protected alliance. Our members hated getting rolled for our stupidity. I know they would not have enjoyed getting rolled for NEW.

But you were Hydra. We wouldn't have gone in for FEAR given our condition (had 6 Mil not happened we likely would have), but if Hydra went in we'd have done so. Granted we wouldn't have been enthused, but we'd have done so simply out of loyalty and commitment. But the war ended before it ever escalated.

But no, this war we would not have abandoned our other friends to help you. With NEW, as much as we didn't want to enter, helping you, we would have burned with alliances that we liked. This war helping you meant helping alliances who we didn't like, who had openly threatened us in the past, roll alliances we considered our friends. You would ask us to destroy some of our closest relationships to aid our enemies?[/color]

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1300501884' post='2669733']
But we were your allies, and we would have done more for you than any of your other allies. You never repaid that loyalty nor would you ever have thought of doing that. It was a one sides relationship and it was going to stay that way until we cancelled.
[/quote]

We stopped being allies the second you gave in to that side's will and shunned us for not doing the same, thereby betraying literally [i][b]every other ally we have[/b][/i]. It wasn't one-sided. We had your best interests in mind, and did provably did since 6mil. Go back to VE, hypocrite.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Jake Liebenow

[TrotskysRevenge]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1300391602' post='2668042']
[img]http://i.imgur.com/UEiEz.png[/img]

The Saint Patrick's Day Massacre (of rhetoric)
[/quote]
Wins the thred. Everthing else is redundnt and repetutv.Everon can stop postng now.

[Guffey]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1300496000' post='2669637']
I read that sentence as the economic penalty being that by not leaving peace mode immediately after you are able to that that is the penalty. Meaning it's best to collect after 5 days and get out of peace mode rather than stay in peace mode for longer than the 5 days you are locked into peace mode. Nothing more. It doesn't say specifically that incomes are halved.

Anyway, the point is we will be fine. We are at peace even with wars going on around us. Like I said flak, you can knock down my nation and the other small nations we have and we can collect and with a single $3mil aid slot 1000 days from today we can pay our bills. If DH didn't want to fight for so long then you shouldn't have messed with us.
[/quote]


14 days in when the economic penalties stop, so once you make it to 14 days, and you still are making a surplus, you should be good to stay there for as long as you need

[Antonio Salovega VI]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1300501367' post='2669722']
~snip~
[/quote]

Two can play this game...Your argument is invalid sir.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1300501367' post='2669722']
Two can play this game...

I have more causalities than you. Your argument is invalid sir.
[/quote]
I think you missed the entire point of his argument.

And before you check, I have more casualties than you.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1300335789' post='2666971']
Doomhouse actually had a reason, fyi.
[/quote]
Indeed, paranoia is a reason.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1300337263' post='2667045']
[color="#0000FF"]I know I'm not on DH's side, but I really doubt they want to impose eternal war on NPO.[/color]
[/quote]
I am certain they don't. Eternal war is boring.

They just want their month or so of rolling NPO every year.

[quote name='Mofeta' timestamp='1300339776' post='2667158']
A straight up fight is exactly what we were expecting. It is what should have resulted had it not been for your mass flight into PM.[/quote]
Why should it have resulted?

You declared on NPO out of the blue, with obviously superior forces, when neither the NPO or its allies had taken any aggressive actions towards your coalition. The Polar war that was used as a cover for this war is now over, so why do you need to fight NPO again?

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1300339819' post='2667160']
Refusing to accept terms to end the war =/= eternal war.

They have been given a fairly clear way to end it. It's not reps or forced disbandment or eternal tech farm. It's on them to choose to accept or not.
[/quote]
It's actually the same as the offer NPO made to FAN, except the duration is longer (one month of war where I believe NPO wanted FAN to come out for two weeks).

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300340351' post='2667177']
These are your offers:
[quote]
(graded play)

400m base amount, % taken off of amount based on a grade given to them for the play (grades run from 0% to 100%). The play is 20 scenes over 4-5 acts. The minimum lines per scene would be 40 (non repeating, coherent) lines. The play's subject must involve GOONS and VE, in a not-entirely-negative light, and it should be done in Shakespearean style. The play may be submitted twice, to improve the grade.

(ungraded play)
Same requirements as above only with no grade portion and a flat 100m paid to GOONS, one submission unless it is deemed insufficient.
[/quote]
[/quote]
20 scenes at 40 lines per scene of iambic pentameter?

Alright, you go ahead and write 800 lines of poetry for CN. That is what you are asking for here.

The minimum length here is incidentally roughly the same as Act I of Hamlet, at 851 lines. Which has five scenes. 40 lines per scene is incredibly short scenes.

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1300341231' post='2667221']
Is this offer only for NPO or the entire side that's fighting on the front?
[/quote]
Only for NPO.

[quote name='montypython' timestamp='1300343057' post='2667320']
I'm only implying my own feelings that I, personally, would rather fight and lose, than sit in PM and have no respect shown to me.
[/quote]
Oh come on; you really think anyone on this side of the treatyweb will ever be respected by you and yours?

Given the obvious contempt you guys show us, we'd rather behave in a manner that you find infuriating than go along with the role you seek to impose upon us.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300343971' post='2667350']
I wish to have our fight, the fight MK and NPO have always been destined to have, and end this.
[/quote]
That was in 2008. It lasted two weeks.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300344615' post='2667376']
Schatt has written as much in this thread as a full act of text. Your argument is invalid.
[/quote]
He has not written a single line of iambic pentameter.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300345370' post='2667403']
[b]After one month of war NPO can take peace whenever it wants to abandon its allies to extortion at the hands of GOONS. It will be given, no further demands made.[/b]
[/quote]
Fixed that for you.

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1300352899' post='2667523']
So basically what you're saying is, the math works out, reps are more efficient, but I'm going to continue claiming that they don't in magical Umbrella-land, with no evidence to support me. Ok.
[/quote]
What he's saying is actually true. Reparations are infamously inefficient, it's one of the many reasons I've opposed them. (Albeit a minor one.)

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1300357337' post='2667560']
NPO:

A) let us heavily damage your middle tier because we outnumber you there and we can even put nations into PM and back due to that.
[/quote]
If you'd wanted to protect your middle tier, you should have ordered them into peace mode.

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300361202' post='2667583']
There is no incentive for ending the war while the upper tiers who have been in peace mode the entire time have not fought. It would be stupid and give the PM strategy a victory, which sets not only a bad precedent, but would be a nonsensical concession as we would leave a goal unaccomplished for little gain.
[/quote]
What goal would that be exactly?

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300364213' post='2667602']
Actually, I have never to this day seen an official NPO clarification on their stance toward the VE-Polar war. It was never announced that they would have used non-chaining clauses to stay out of the conflict despite allies getting involved(Hm, could this not have easily been done in a DoN) for sure and even their own members don't know.
[/quote]
That's because that was not their stance. Their stance was that if their direct allies got involved in the Polar war, they would have defended us.

None of their direct allies were getting involved in the Polar war. That's the truth that you are avoiding.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300366349' post='2667621']
What the hell do we gain by agreeing to X and then doing Y when they come out of peace mode?
[/quote]
Fun.

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1300373715' post='2667713']
If you really want a 1 on 1 I'm sure we'd be up for one with BAPS after this war is over. If you manage to talk your brave alliance into it I'm sure the mk gov won't be too hard to convince. Unless of course you're all cowards with big mouths.
[/quote]
Careful what you wish for.

[quote name='feardaram' timestamp='1300374042' post='2667717']
It's not eternal if we could just get it over with.
[/quote]
That's exactly the argument NPO used on FAN.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1300375445' post='2667736']
What, how? The cost of keeping your entire upper tier in peace mode for an extended period of time is massive. The cost of sitting around waiting for a war to happen is negligible. Doomhouse loses very little if NPO refuses to come out.
[/quote]
It loses its raison d'etre.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300385016' post='2667884']
You know nothing of the depth of our diplomacy, we have resolved or reduced the hatred of many important alliances towards GOONS. From one hated alliance to another, I implore you to take our advice.
[/quote]
One should read "important" as "having good statistics" here, of course.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1300386250' post='2667927']
I think you're splitting hairs, here. NPO maintained that FAN would get peace if they came out of PM and fought and they stuck to that term. For two years. Now here's the same term being offered (intentionally, of course) and being rejected. The only reason this is a world away from those wars is because it's only been two months. If this goes on for another six, what then? It's not to that point yet but the exact same justifications, both for the war and for continuing it, are the same.

That worries me, because it's rather abhorrent for me to sit here seemingly in moral defence of NPO.
[/quote]
Welcome to my world, circa the summer of 2009. While it wasn't abhorrent for me, it was definitely strange.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300387312' post='2667950']
FAN had already surrendered once and was attacked again at the end of those terms, they had a direct reason not to trust NPO.
[/quote]
Here's the basic problem: You guys are all Karma alliances. NPO surrendered to Karma; admittedly you guys waited a year after letting them out of terms before attacking them for no reason out of the blue, but the essentials are all the same.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300387729' post='2667965']
This war isn't based on NPO "breaking terms" like NPO's second attack on FAN was.
[/quote]
It is also not based on NPO doing anything at all. There is no action NPO took to cause this war. Not even making jokes with a guy thinking of rerolling.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1300387816' post='2667966']
Furthermore, MK and FAN aside, two of the alliances on the NPO front are members of PB, and I can tell you there is absolutely no way in hell they will go back on any definitive affirmation given.
[/quote]
And of course VE's word is gold, they've never betrayed anyone.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300388005' post='2667971']
I'm wondering where this "Why should we believe you'll stop the war after a month?" argument is coming from.
[/quote]
It's coming from your coalition's history of extremely antagonistic and deceitful behaviour.

[quote name='Kyaris' timestamp='1300418717' post='2668692']
Normally nations with high casualty counts are trying to get high *attacking* counts, not defending counts.
[/quote]
Aw, it's so cute watching the nuclear virgins trying to talk big.

(A hint: Just about everyone who's ever fought in a serious nuclear war and hasn't turtled has more defending than attacking casualties.)

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1300443881' post='2668957']
We're at war with you, we're not going to let you go in a position that you can come after us quickly down the line, so you have the option of having a relatively short period of war and then all ends.
[/quote]
Wait, NPO is currently in a position that they could come after Doomhouse quickly down the line?

In what hallucinatory universe do you exist?

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1300469680' post='2669162']
The GPA has never willingly took part or instigated in any way any armed conflict in over five years of existence
[/quote]
This is technically true.

However you are trying to imply that the GPA has never taken any aggressive provocative actions, so I direct you to this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=9320

Your implication is incorrect.

[Haflinger]

And that's the replies done.

Right then. The OP was published some 24 hours after NPO had been presented with Doomhouse's demands. At the time that it went up, they were talking to their allies to see what we thought of the demands.

It would be fair to suggest that Doomhouse would have been better off giving NPO and its allies some time to consider their demands before making a public spectacle of this whole negotiation process.

It would also be fair to suggest that, well, Doomhouse is trying to get a do-over on the Karma war. I mean, look. You have a group of alliances who, during Karma, complained that the NPO's higher NS nations were not forced out of peace mode, and also that too many NPO allies were given white peace agreements to end the war. Now here they are, trying to force NPO's higher NS nations out of peace mode and force NPO allies to pay reparations. This just isn't a coincidence, and anyone who genuinely thinks it is is dumber than Methrage.

[HHAYD]

Just a question for those who support DH's position...

Do you support "Innocent Until Proven Guilty"? Or "Guilty Until Proven Innocent"?


Please do not ignore my question, or I will repeat it until I get a clear answer.

[Dagrr]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1300508241' post='2669822']
I think you missed the entire point of his argument.

And before you check, I have more casualties than you.
[/quote]

There isn't an "argument" at all. The whole premise of basing anything on someones casualty count is retarded in of itself. More so when you have less than the person you are insulting. If you two want to continue debating it, please go on without me.

[Monster]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1300508702' post='2669827']


That's because that was not their stance. Their stance was that if their direct allies got involved in the Polar war, they would have defended us.

None of their direct allies were getting involved in the Polar war. That's the truth that you are avoiding.


[/quote]

Wrong, NSO was going to enter and had been holding off. It's already been said in this thread that NPO allies were being held off from entering. In essence, we got tired of getting played.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[brickyard]

What a joke this thread has turned into.

If we asked for reps, theyd complain about reps.

We dont ask for reps, they complain about having to fight.


Its not even about rolling NPO anymore, its about how cowardly this is making you look. We're standing here, setting down a predetermined amount of time to fight, waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is.

Dont get me wrong - Ive fought some NPO nations in this war (Henry ) that were both intelligent and willing to lay down for NPO. But govs decision to maintain this peace mode posturing is just cowardly; and Im positive there are members of NPO just itching for a fight.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1300498003' post='2669668']
So says the sitting puppet. I just wish the rest of Hydra would see the strings. You're disgusting, and I'm abhorred to have ever called you an ally.
[/quote]
[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1300502497' post='2669745']
We stopped being allies the second you gave in to that side's will and shunned us for not doing the same, thereby betraying literally [i][b]every other ally we have[/b][/i]. It wasn't one-sided. We had your best interests in mind, and did provably did since 6mil. Go back to VE, hypocrite.
[/quote]

Hydra was an excellent ally.

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1300501584' post='2669727']
Closest Non-Allies. That was the kicker. You felt more of a loyalty toward people who A.) Had screwed you in the past (Polaris) and B.)Were not allies....



As well, Ragnarok had just gotten done leading the crusade to stomp your faces into the ground during the summer. Guess who was on Polars side?


EDIT: You forget that we had no clue CSN and Legacy would barrel in to help us. They did that on their own with ZERO communication with us. We were fighting LoSS one on one, and they outnumbered us two fold. Nah, we did not need your help, you were much more willing to sit on the sidelines and not get involved, leaving us to rot. (Doomhouse would not go on to hit NPO for several days)
[/quote]

It's safe to say that STA and NSO have been allies for a long time, treaty or not. There is/was still a strongly rooted connection with NpO as well, at least for me and my time spent after Bipolar. I can also safely say that in spite of the hype, bad blood with RoK wasn't so bad after the 6mil war. - even though the 6mil war deeply, deeply crippled NSO.

There is just no way NSO would line up with the opposite side of this war. Wouldn't couldn't shouldn't.