A Statement from Doomhouse

[Letum]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1302619798' post='2689434']
Oh I'm not forgetting it, on the contrary, I have a lot of rebuilding aid lined up.
[/quote]

Oh, well played. I see wut you did thar.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Letum

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1302620874' post='2689452']
A few jabs? Since its inception into this world, your alliance has lost any shred of respect it had, from many different alliances, a thousand times over. Believe me when I say that there are a !@#$-ton of people out there who think GOONS is comprised of nothing more than idiots and morons. That anyone could possibly think this is a good thing absolutely confounds me.

You have every single freedom to say what you like, but on the political stage, there are other people who are watching what you say. If you really want to act careless and generally like an idiot, go ahead, ain't a thing stopping you. But don't expect anyone to actually [i]like[/i] you for it. You have your allies, yes, but I really do wonder oftentimes how much tolerance they have for you.
[/quote]

I used to dislike GOONS but quite frankly I've come to respect them because of the crappiness of their detractors and the sheer volume of hate they get from people like you. They and Doomhouse have some of the cleverest people around in leadership. Sardonic and JT_Jag are intelligent people and good diplomats. If they weren't, then GOONS 2.0 would have died quickly, not turned longtime enemies like VE and NpO into friends and allies, and become one of the most powerful alliances in the world. Then you have Roq and Archon and Lebubu and other competent people in Umbrella and MK.

By contrast, NPO and the other side (OOC: I would use tildes here but my keyboard is malfunctioning) boast you, Maelstrom Vortex and William Bonney.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Kalasin

[Letum]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302650553' post='2689717']
If they weren't, then GOONS 2.0 would have died quickly, not turned longtime enemies like VE and NpO into friends and allies,
[/quote]

I seem to recall a certain red alliance getting them a protectorate right at that beginning.

[quote]
and become one of the most powerful alliances in the world.
[/quote]

You realize they are approaching the point of dropping out of the first page of alliance rankings, right? I mean, sure they will bounce up pretty massively after the war, and have a lot of nations, but they have about as much power as any alliance in a block would have.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Letum

[speakerwire]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302652343' post='2689733']
You realize they are approaching the point of dropping out of the first page of alliance rankings, right? I mean, sure they will bounce up pretty massively after the war, and have a lot of nations, but they have about as much power as any alliance in a block would have.
[/quote]

Most alliances would have their metrics drop significantly at the rear end of a prolonged multi-month, multi-front conflict.

But I guess GOONS do it so gracefully that it's worth mentioning as a seperate case study.

[Letum]

[quote name='speakerwire' timestamp='1302653537' post='2689745']
But I guess GOONS do it so gracefully that it's worth mentioning as a seperate case study.
[/quote]

Not really.

[Choson]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302652343' post='2689733']
You realize they are approaching the point of dropping out of the first page of alliance rankings, right? I mean, sure they will bounce up pretty massively after the war, and have a lot of nations, but they have about as much power as any alliance in a block would have.
[/quote]
Yep, because power always equals NS, right?

[Letum]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1302656110' post='2689765']
Yep, because power always equals NS, right?
[/quote]

Not really.

[Choson]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302656305' post='2689769']
Not really.
[/quote]
Thanks for proving my point.

[Letum]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1302656617' post='2689771']
Thanks for proving my point.
[/quote]

It's always a pleasure when other intelligent people recognize I'm right

[flak attack]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302652343' post='2689733']
You realize they are approaching the point of dropping out of the first page of alliance rankings, right? I mean, sure they will bounce up pretty massively after the war, and have a lot of nations, but they have about as much power as any alliance in a block would have.
[/quote]
You realize that they already fell off the front page, then made their way back on it, despite being in the middle of a nuclear war while others are rebuilding, right?

[Letum]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1302658187' post='2689782']
You realize that they already fell off the front page, then made their way back on it, despite being in the middle of a nuclear war while others are rebuilding, right?
[/quote]

Perhaps our dear Doomhouse posters are misunderstanding what my statements are supposed to mean.

I'm not saying GOONS sucks. I'm not saying that it's some weakling. I'm not saying that their military performance is supposed to reflect something. It simply isn't one of the "great" powers of our world.

It is certainly very likely to grow into one, but right now, there is only so far that the strength of having friends can carry it. After all, there's a very large list of other alliances with significant ties into the current "dominant" groupings; MHA, FARK, Sparta, ODN, IRON, TOP, Umbrella, FOK, MK, GATO, VE, RnR, RIA, GOD, Athens, IFOK, CSN - the list can go on and on. If you have so many "most powerful" alliances, then that category would lose its meaning.

Certainly, GOONS very low NS alone is not indicative of their influence - they are definitely very far above being the 70th strongest that their NS would rank them at. But it cannot be hand-waved away as insignificant either.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302658814' post='2689787']
Perhaps our dear Doomhouse posters are misunderstanding what my statements are supposed to mean.

I'm not saying GOONS sucks. I'm not saying that it's some weakling. I'm not saying that their military performance is supposed to reflect something. It simply isn't one of the "great" powers of our world.

It is certainly very likely to grow into one, but right now, there is only so far that the strength of having friends can carry it. After all, there's a very large list of other alliances with significant ties into the current "dominant" groupings; MHA, FARK, Sparta, ODN, IRON, TOP, Umbrella, FOK, MK, GATO, VE, RnR, RIA, GOD, Athens, IFOK, CSN - the list can go on and on. If you have so many "most powerful" alliances, then that category would lose its meaning.

Certainly, GOONS very low NS alone is not indicative of their influence - they are definitely very far above being the 70th strongest that their NS would rank them at. But it cannot be hand-waved away as insignificant either.
[/quote]
I wouldn't wave it away, but GOONS' 1) soft power and 2) potential are so immense (especially the latter of the two) that a great deal of their statistical weakness is diminished in the eyes of the world leaders. If you reserve "great powers" for the very top tier alliances they may have a way to go, but not far. They are an exceedingly influential alliance, far beyond their statistical measure.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Ardus

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302650553' post='2689717']
If they weren't, then GOONS 2.0 would have died quickly, not turned longtime enemies like VE and NpO into friends and allies, and become one of the most powerful alliances in the world.
[/quote]
NpO is allied to GOONS?

Or friendly with them?

Somebody needs to catch up on their politics a little. There was this war between the Polars and the power bloc GOONS is in not very long ago...

[Banedon]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1302663716' post='2689834']
I wouldn't wave it away, but GOONS' 1) soft power and 2) potential are so immense (especially the latter of the two) that a great deal of their statistical weakness is diminished in the eyes of the world leaders. If you reserve "great powers" for the very top tier alliances they may have a way to go, but not far. They are an exceedingly influential alliance, far beyond their statistical measure.
[/quote]

I would disagree for several reasons.

First, GOONS have soft power, but not because of who they are, but who their friends are. They are part of a bloc of blocs, a continuum, that currently can completely dominate the political and military spheres of Bob.

Second, GOONS have the same potential as any other large alliance with low average nation strength rebuilding after a huge nuclear war. Which would include pretty much every single major alliance at this point. By thier own admission, GOONS get bored with peace. Once the shooting stops I'm guessing some of them will leave. This reduces thier potential as well.

Do GOONS punch above their weight? Yes they do. It's because they've solidly implanted themselves in the currently dominant power structure, not some special quality that only GOONS possess. I would posit that GOONS by themselves are not very influencial at all. Their friends however, are. I personally find that to be a deploreable state of affairs, but all things change with enough time.

Once Legion was the strongest AA on Bob. Then we were the largest. Then we survived a disbanding and spent years rebuilding. We regained our Sanction, and now we lose it again. We've been at the top, we've been at the bottom, we've been waffling around in the middle the past year or so. Now we're hitting another low point, and eventually we'll be back on top again.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Banedon

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302669969' post='2689893']
I would disagree for several reasons.

First, GOONS have soft power, but not because of who they are, but who their friends are. They are part of a bloc of blocs, a continuum, that currently can completely dominate the political and military spheres of Bob.

Second, GOONS have the same potential as any other large alliance with low average nation strength rebuilding after a huge nuclear war. Which would include pretty much every single major alliance at this point. By thier own admission, GOONS get bored with peace. Once the shooting stops I'm guessing some of them will leave. This reduces thier potential as well.

Do GOONS punch above their weight? Yes they do. It's because they've solidly implanted themselves in the currently dominant power structure, not some special quality that only GOONS possess. I would posit that GOONS by themselves are not very influencial at all. Their friends however, are. I personally find that to be a deploreable state of affairs, but all things change with enough time.

Once Legion was the strongest AA on Bob. Then we were the largest. Then we survived a disbanding and spent years rebuilding. We regained our Sanction, and now we lose it again. We've been at the top, we've been at the bottom, we've been waffling around in the middle the past year or so. Now we're hitting another low point, [b]and eventually we'll be back on top again.[/b]
[/quote]

It's a good thing you put the bolded piece at the end of your post, because that's about when I stopped and chuckled.

Anyways, to say GOONS only has soft power strictly based on who their allies are is a bit of a stretch, I think. Even if GOONS were not locked into the main power grouping, I suspect they'd still wield an inordinate amount of soft power largely due to Sardonic being a quality leader. Also, GOONS is in a much better position to rebound stronger than other alliances at war right now largely because they've managed to grow their membership even while at war. While they will have a low average nation strength for quite some time, most likely, I don't think it's a stretch to think that they might at least double their current NS at a fairly quick clip once the rebuild aid and war reps kick in.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302650553' post='2689717']
I used to dislike GOONS but quite frankly I've come to respect them because of the crappiness of their detractors and the sheer volume of hate they get from people like you. They and Doomhouse have some of the cleverest people around in leadership. Sardonic and JT_Jag are intelligent people and good diplomats. If they weren't, then GOONS 2.0 would have died quickly, not turned longtime enemies like VE and NpO into friends and allies, and become one of the most powerful alliances in the world. Then you have Roq and Archon and Lebubu and other competent people in Umbrella and MK.

By contrast, NPO and the other side (OOC: I would use tildes here but my keyboard is malfunctioning) boast you, Maelstrom Vortex and William Bonney.
[/quote]
You seem to not realize that most goons will disappear soon after this war ends (I recall a certain goonie saying it themselves but I couldn't be bothered to remember their name) so really the whole point is moot. And we all know you'd respect anyone who fights NPO Kalasin, I still recall last time we had our wonderful conversations

p.s. thanks for the shout out btw, I always enjoy praise from all my fans.

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302650553' post='2689717']I used to dislike GOONS but quite frankly I've come to respect them because of the crappiness of their detractors and the sheer volume of hate they get from people like you.[/quote]

Awesome. Base your opinion of thousands of players on each side on what a few say as opposed to what the sides actually do.

What did you expect Pacifica and Company to do when they got bushwhacked merely for existing? Buy the enemy flowers and chocolates?

How could you even expect us to even be civil over this?


Context is everything.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302652343' post='2689733']
I seem to recall a certain red alliance getting them a protectorate right at that beginning.
[/quote]

NPO protected GOONS after their reformation? That's news to me, but by all means prove me wrong.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302652343' post='2689733']
You realize they are approaching the point of dropping out of the first page of alliance rankings, right? I mean, sure they will bounce up pretty massively after the war, and have a lot of nations, but they have about as much power as any alliance in a block would have.
[/quote]

In the light of your comments below this post, I'm not quite sure why you made this post in the first place. Power is not about military prowess or nation strength in Cyber Nations. GOONS have political influence. Because they are a tech raiding alliance, their average nation strength will always remain low, and they knew that. Therefore, they made a conscious decision to focus their energies on diplomatic relations and to gain political influence, and they have done so brilliantly. Perhaps if anyone in NPO was half as competent as GOONS leadership are, you might have lost your status as a social pariah and avoided your current beatdown.


[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1302664788' post='2689844']
NpO is allied to GOONS?

Or friendly with them?

Somebody needs to catch up on their politics a little. There was this war between the Polars and the power bloc GOONS is in not very long ago...
[/quote]

GOONS became friendly with NpO a very long time ago and got Grub's permission to reform. I think they even had a treaty at some point but my memory is hazy. I'm quite aware of the current status of their relationship.

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1302671429' post='2689901']
You seem to not realize that most goons will disappear soon after this war ends (I recall a certain goonie saying it themselves but I couldn't be bothered to remember their name) so really the whole point is moot.
[/quote]

The number of nations GOONS has is irrelevant.

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1302673347' post='2689909']
Awesome. Base your opinion of thousands of players on each side on what a few say as opposed to what the sides actually do.

What did you expect Pacifica and Company to do when they got bushwhacked merely for existing? Buy the enemy flowers and chocolates?

How could you even expect us to even be civil over this?


Context is everything.
[/quote]

I was overjoyed when the Orders were attacked. I haven't been this happy since BiPolar. I really couldn't care less what your reaction was to this war.

[mrwuss]

Stop complimenting Sardonic, it's going to take months to brow beat him back into depression, jerks.

All that work gone in a few posts, now I really am mad!


rawrrrrrrrrrrr

[Banksy]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302669969' post='2689893']
First, GOONS have soft power, but not because of who they are, but who their friends are. They are part of a bloc of blocs, a continuum, that currently can completely dominate the political and military spheres of Bob.[/quote]
This makes no sense. Soft power is the ability to set the agenda to advance your objectives. If GOONS have soft power 'because of who their friends are' then their friends must have the soft power. Or (as I assume you're trying to say) GOONS have soft power are use it to project the hard power of their friends. Either way, your very first statement makes no sense which doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of your paragraph.

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302669969' post='2689893']
Second, GOONS have the same potential as any other large alliance with low average nation strength rebuilding after a huge nuclear war. Which would include pretty much every single major alliance at this point. By thier own admission, GOONS get bored with peace. Once the shooting stops I'm guessing some of them will leave. This reduces thier potential as well.[/quote]
As you have already alluded to, GOONS have some rather competent allies. Allies who will aid them. This huge funding capacity, along with their superior recruitment, means they have a huge potential for growth. This war (and pre-war evidence) shows us that GOONS, Umbrella and MK have the highest aid slot use on Bob, something that can't be said for other low ANS alliances like, say, Legion.

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302669969' post='2689893']
Do GOONS punch above their weight? Yes they do. It's because they've solidly implanted themselves in the currently dominant power structure, not some special quality that only GOONS possess. I would posit that GOONS by themselves are not very influencial at all. Their friends however, are. I personally find that to be a deploreable state of affairs, but all things change with enough time.[/quote]
Wait, so just before GOONS had lots of soft power, and now suddenly that soft power is useless because of the multilateral framework that GOONS accidentally found itself in? Right...

If GOONS have soft power, and have placed themselves in an important multilateral system then they clearly do have influence. Influence is soft power. Honestly, until I saw the Legion tag I was wondering what was wrong with you.
[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302669969' post='2689893']
Once Legion was the strongest AA on Bob. Then we were the largest. Then we survived a disbanding and spent years rebuilding. We regained our Sanction, and now we lose it again. We've been at the top, we've been at the bottom, we've been waffling around in the middle the past year or so. Now we're hitting another low point, and eventually we'll be back on top again.[/quote]
Oh deary me. I can't honestly think of a single time when Legion was on top. But I can say with certainty that Legion has always been a complete and utter joke. You exist out of habit. If I had a dong for each time someone has said that Legion was about to 'resurge' I would probably have a warchest again. You have four years to turn it around, and you've persistently remained sub-par. There is no danger of Legion ever 'being on top.'

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302674399' post='2689912']I was overjoyed when the Orders were attacked. I haven't been this happy since BiPolar. I really couldn't care less what your reaction was to this war.[/quote]

And you still didn't get it. I didn't ask you to like us.

Before this you hated the Orders to begin with and also hated the GOONS too. Then the GOONS attack the Orders and simply because the Orders get mad and rail about it you suddenly feel the poor GOONS are being treated badly and you begin to like them. A silver tongue is all that it takes to blind you to deeds done? Good to know that words mean more than actions to you.

[blueski]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302674399' post='2689912']
NPO protected GOONS after their reformation? That's news to me, but by all means prove me wrong.


GOONS became friendly with NpO a very long time ago and got Grub's permission to reform. I think they even had a treaty at some point but my memory is hazy. I'm quite aware of the current status of their relationship.
[/quote]

NPO and NpO were GOONS' joint protectors when we reformed, incidentally this was very shortly before Karma so the NPO protectorate was nullified by their surrender terms.

As I'm sure you can guess those choices of protectors weren't really a choice at the time.

[Mirreille]

[quote name='Hydro' timestamp='1302038356' post='2684948']
Honour matters. Not that CSN has ever had any to know it.
[/quote]

You missed the GATO war I take it...

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1302238273' post='2686545']
I can't believe people are still being retards and saying that there wasn't a CB. Every single war that has occurred on on this planet has had a CB. Just because you don't agree with the reasons given by the alliance that initiates the conflict doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I swear to God that some of you people are just so damn stupid.
[/quote]

People are not talking about a CB in the general sense, but more of an immediate reason why any particular conflict occurs. The Lennox/Dajobo business is one such, and Heft's actions along with the $6M in the NSO/ROK war. However flimsy/solid you may view the reason, almost every single previous war had one. DH's war this time certainly has a CB, and sensible strategic reasons behind it, but they simply did not wait for the overt act, and that is both unprecedented and pushing towards the death of diplomacy. OOC: If CN devolves to nothing more then a wargame, I think the shrinking player base trend will continue. /OOC

I think you are smart enough to know what people are talking about when they say DH didn't have a CB, Feanor.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='blueski' timestamp='1302680736' post='2689952']
NPO and NpO were GOONS' joint protectors when we reformed, incidentally this was very shortly before Karma so the NPO protectorate was nullified by their surrender terms.

As I'm sure you can guess those choices of protectors weren't really a choice at the time.
[/quote]

Ah, that makes sense.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302650553' post='2689717']
I used to dislike GOONS but quite frankly I've come to respect them because of the crappiness of their detractors and the sheer volume of hate they get from people like you. They and Doomhouse have some of the cleverest people around in leadership. Sardonic and JT_Jag are intelligent people and good diplomats. If they weren't, then GOONS 2.0 would have died quickly, not turned longtime enemies like VE and NpO into friends and allies, and become one of the most powerful alliances in the world. Then you have Roq and Archon and Lebubu and other competent people in Umbrella and MK.

By contrast, NPO and the other side (OOC: I would use tildes here but my keyboard is malfunctioning) boast you, Maelstrom Vortex and William Bonney. [/quote]
Your first point is immediately nullified by the fact that you respect them simply because the other side throws so much hate at them. I mean, I'm pretty sure that respect for something or someone should come out of something that they've done and not because they have haters. (OOC: It's like saying you respect Justin Beiber because of the sheer number of people who dislike him, rather than the fact that he is a successful singer who has sold millions of records. You see what I'm getting at?)

As for your second one, yes, that's quite right, Sardonic and his cronies know how to maneuvre themselves to avoid getting stomped on, most probably because they've learned from the mistakes of their predecessors, which should frankly be a given. Roq, Archon, Lebubu and co. well, the same goes for them. They've had time to learn from past mistakes, and make their actions and decisions accordingly. Dubious actions and decisions, I should say. My point is, it's not prudent to compare such different characters. I, for example, am not at the head of an alliance based on mushrooms, and nor am I leading a 99-nation 80k average strength behemoth. Neither for that matter, is Vortex and Bonney. Give us time, [s]I'll[/s] we'll get there.

After all, Sardonic and co. have had, what, the better part of four years to do so? Hm.