A Statement from Doomhouse

[Choson]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302669969' post='2689893']
Once Legion was the strongest AA on Bob. Then we were the largest. Then we survived a disbanding and spent years rebuilding. We regained our Sanction, and now we lose it again. We've been at the top, we've been at the bottom, we've been waffling around in the middle the past year or so. Now we're hitting another low point, and eventually we'll be back on top again.
[/quote]
Please, don't compare us to your awful alliance.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='speakerwire' timestamp='1302639587' post='2689614']
To: DH/PB leadership
Subject: I demand that you term...
CC: Everyone Else;

inate your political ties to GOONS because they're a bunch of jerks.

If their propensity to fight people wasn't bad enough, they also have the nerve to citicise those they fight (and their supporters). Often times this criticism is not of a constructive and amiable nature and is put forward with intent to 'make fun' of the other party. Standing idly by while this occurs is an act which covers you with the same layer of guilt as those that preform the act.

This farce cannot stand, correct yourself or the United Front of the Rest of the World: United Against MK, Umbrella, DH, PB(UFotRotW: UAMK,U,DH,PB) will take action against you.

Much Love,
Speakerwire.
temporary title of self-imposed grandiocity while a newer, more important sounding title is formulated and voted on by dudes more important than you[/quote]
Allow me to re-write that for you..it appears as though have made several LittleRena-esque spelling and grammar mistakes...


To: Sardonic
Subject: I demand that you...
CC: Pandora's Box, Doom House;

...eject 95% of your membership due to their wholesomely awful posting on the OWF. It pains me to see GOONS members such as mrwuss, speakerwire and beefspari tarnishing the image of your alliance in a rather embarrassing manner in front of the rest of the world.

They cannot put forward valid political arguments, and I have come to the conclusion that they cannot do so due to one or more mentally inhibiting devices. If these devices are of your own making, I demand that you remove such leashes from your members at once! Alas, it is becoming too easy to defeat them as they become embroiled in their own pathetic games, leading to a total malfunction in their ability to comprehend the words of their opponents.

This farce cannot stand, correct yourself or the United Front for the Freedom of Mentally Damaged GOONS will take action against you.

Disrespectfully,
Hadrian
Chancellor of the UFFMDG

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1302690572' post='2689983']
Please, don't compare us to your awful alliance.[/quote]

[b]The Legion[/b]:
Total strength - 4.9mil
Average - 18k
Nukes - 1,484
Nations - 269

[b]Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism[/b]:
Total strength - 1.7mil
Average - 4k
Nukes - 416
Nations - 393

Same thing with Invicta. So much meaningless hate and yet you come nowhere close on stats.

GOONS, will you [i]ever[/i] stop embarrassing yourselves?

[Letum]

[quote name='blueski' timestamp='1302680736' post='2689952']
As I'm sure you can guess those choices of protectors weren't really a choice at the time.
[/quote]

What wasn't really a choice? Giving an alliance a protectorate? Of course that's a choice, if we don't want a protectorate, we don't give it.

Allowing GOONS to reform? We were never in war with them at the first place, so there wasn't any question about "allowing" it.

[Borsche]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302669969' post='2689893']
Once Legion was the strongest AA on Bob. Then we were the largest. Then we survived a disbanding and spent years rebuilding. We regained our Sanction, and now we lose it again. We've been at the top, we've been at the bottom, we've been waffling around in the middle the past year or so. Now we're hitting another low point, and eventually we'll be back on top again.
[/quote]

Legion is, quite frankly, the worst, most embarrassing alliance to grace this planet.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='blueski' timestamp='1302680736' post='2689952']
NPO and NpO were GOONS' joint protectors when we reformed, incidentally this was very shortly before Karma so the NPO protectorate was nullified by their surrender terms.

As I'm sure you can guess those choices of protectors weren't really a choice at the time.
[/quote]
The karma War broke out on April 20 2009

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54702

Are you suggesting that we coerced you to exist only to fight in the karma war?

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1302692025' post='2689992']
[b]The Legion[/b]:
Total strength - 4.9mil
Average - 18k
Nukes - 1,484
Nations - 269

[b]Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism[/b]:
Total strength - 1.7mil
Average - 4k
Nukes - 416
[b][u]Nations - 393[/u][/b]

Same thing with Invicta. So much meaningless hate and yet you come nowhere close on stats.

GOONS, will you [i]ever[/i] stop embarrassing yourselves?
[/quote]

Stats are meaningless in measuring the power of an alliance.
atleast when 4.9mil NS is being controlled by nation rulers with the experience of 7 year olds.

haha 393 nations,kinda funny that we started with 285.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Lord Velox

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Borsche' timestamp='1302693231' post='2689997']
Legion is, quite frankly, the worst, most embarrassing alliance to grace this planet.
[/quote]
Can you tell us why? I mean, make a list or paragraph of specific details that make The Legion the worst, most embarrassing alliance to ever grace this planet? If you cannot, I will assume you haven't the foggiest idea of why you are arguing what it is you are arguing.


[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1302695286' post='2690002']
Stats are meaningless in measuring the power of an alliance.
atleast when 4.9mil NS is being controlled by nation rulers with the experience of 7 year olds.

haha 393 nations,kinda funny that we started with 285.[/quote]
Wait, what? Stats are meaningless? [i]Might doesn't make right after all[/i]?

Hahahaha...yeah, that is funny. I'm pretty sure that figure was about 409 yesterday.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302693217' post='2689996']
What wasn't really a choice? Giving an alliance a protectorate? Of course that's a choice, if we don't want a protectorate, we don't give it.
[/quote]

Don't be absurd. I know you're an intelligent man, there's no chance you accidentally misinterpreted his post. Clearly, he meant that GOONS had to have the support of the Orders when it reformed, particularly NPO, because of NPO's hegemonic control over the political scene at the time, but also NpO, because they had some decree in place which prevented GOONS from reforming. Thus, the joint protectorate wasn't much of a choice. But you know this quite well.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302693217' post='2689996']
Allowing GOONS to reform? We were never in war with them at the first place, so there wasn't any question about "allowing" it.
[/quote]

Back in the day, NPO could (and did) do whatever it wanted. Given the enmity which resulted between NPO and GOONS after NPO sided with NpO in the UJW, it was quite possible that NPO could have denied them permission to reform.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1302695702' post='2690003']
Can you tell us why? I mean, make a list or paragraph of specific details that make The Legion the worst, most embarrassing alliance to ever grace this planet? If you cannot, I will assume you haven't the foggiest idea of why you are arguing what it is you are arguing.



Wait, what? Stats are meaningless? [i]Might doesn't make right after all[/i]?

Hahahaha...yeah, that is funny. I'm pretty sure that figure was about 409 yesterday.
[/quote]


It's kind of easy to skew the stats to look good, You may be forgetting that its easy to keep NS when you hide your alliance in peace mode. Just thought I'd point that out in-case you missed it. It's also easy to keep a higher nuke count when your alliance is hiding in peace mode. It's kind of easy to keep a higher ANS when hidin..........................you get my point.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1302670857' post='2689896']
It's a good thing you put the bolded piece at the end of your post, because that's about when I stopped and chuckled.

Anyways, to say GOONS only has soft power strictly based on who their allies are is a bit of a stretch, I think. Even if GOONS were not locked into the main power grouping, I suspect they'd still wield an inordinate amount of soft power largely due to Sardonic being a quality leader. Also, GOONS is in a much better position to rebound stronger than other alliances at war right now largely because they've managed to grow their membership even while at war. While they will have a low average nation strength for quite some time, most likely, I don't think it's a stretch to think that they might at least double their current NS at a fairly quick clip once the rebuild aid and war reps kick in.
[/quote]
Thank you for the kind words.


[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1302692025' post='2689992']
[b]The Legion[/b]:
Total strength - 4.9mil
Average - 18k
Nukes - 1,484
Nations - 269

[b]Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism[/b]:
Total strength - 1.7mil
Average - 4k
Nukes - 416
Nations - 393

Same thing with Invicta. So much meaningless hate and yet you come nowhere close on stats.

GOONS, will you [i]ever[/i] stop embarrassing yourselves?
[/quote]
You can't seriously expect me to believe that legion or invicta have as much diplomatic power as we do? I'm not trying to be arrogant here, but seriously. I'd say NSO has more political weight than Legion does.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302693217' post='2689996']
What wasn't really a choice? Giving an alliance a protectorate? Of course that's a choice, if we don't want a protectorate, we don't give it.

Allowing GOONS to reform? We were never in war with them at the first place, so there wasn't any question about "allowing" it.
[/quote]
Actually it was explicitly a question of "allowing" it, if you'll note some of the signatures on the document itself were by people who never peaced out with the old GOONS. I think you underestimate just how difficult it was to secure our return. I believe ODN canceled on IRON because IRON failed to tell them they allowed us to reform, funny story actually.

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1302691375' post='2689987']
Allow me to re-write that for you..it appears as though have made several LittleRena-esque spelling and grammar mistakes...


To: Sardonic
Subject: I demand that you...
CC: Pandora's Box, Doom House;

...eject 95% of your membership due to their wholesomely awful posting on the OWF. It pains me to see GOONS members such as mrwuss, speakerwire and beefspari tarnishing the image of your alliance in a rather embarrassing manner in front of the rest of the world.

They cannot put forward valid political arguments, and I have come to the conclusion that they cannot do so due to one or more mentally inhibiting devices. If these devices are of your own making, I demand that you remove such leashes from your members at once! Alas, it is becoming too easy to defeat them as they become embroiled in their own pathetic games, leading to a total malfunction in their ability to comprehend the words of their opponents.

This farce cannot stand, correct yourself or the United Front for the Freedom of Mentally Damaged GOONS will take action against you.

Disrespectfully,
Hadrian
Chancellor of the UFFMDG
[/quote]

To: Angry, Indignant, NPO Member
Subject: RE:I Demand that you...
CC: anybody who cares what you think about our posting(null set)

If they bother you so much perhaps you shouldn't read them.

Love,
Sardonic

Edited April 13, 2011 by Sardonic

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1302696898' post='2690009']
I believe ODN canceled on IRON because IRON failed to tell them they allowed us to reform, funny story actually.
[/quote]

Possibly that was the official reason, but in reality ODN was divided at the time between the 'pro-hegemony camp' and the 'anti-hegemony camp'. Arsenal, who spearheaded the anti-hegemony movement, disliked IRON and the hegemony independently of the fact that they neglected to inform ODN that GOONS was reforming. This is why he persuaded people to suspend the hegemony treaties during Karma and side with their allies in Vanguard, INT and R&R.

[Letum]

[quote]
Don't be absurd. I know you're an intelligent man, there's no chance you accidentally misinterpreted his post. Clearly, he meant that GOONS had to have the support of the Orders when it reformed, particularly NPO, because of NPO's hegemonic control over the political scene at the time, but also NpO, because they had some decree in place which prevented GOONS from reforming. Thus, the joint protectorate wasn't much of a choice. But you know this quite well.
[/quote]

I'm sure GOONS would have been just fine without NPO's name on any documents. Considering that until a few hours ago you didn't even know our name was there...yeah.


[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1302695952' post='2690004']
Back in the day, NPO could (and did) do whatever it wanted. Given the enmity which resulted between NPO and GOONS after NPO sided with NpO in the UJW, it was quite possible that NPO could have denied them permission to reform.
[/quote]

We had no conflict with GOONS that would cause us to treat their reformation with hostility. Just because we had power doesn't mean we go around using it randomly. A mostly one-sided 2 year old enmity with an alliance we never fought isn't something that "forbids" them from doing something without our permission.

I'm not saying that getting good relations with the current Hegemon was not a good diplomatic move, nor am I saying that it is not possible that in the absence of such, we may have ended up on opposing sides pretty fast - I'm just saying that what GOONS did at that point wasn't really our business.

[quote]
Actually it was explicitly a question of "allowing" it, if you'll note some of the signatures on the document itself were by people who never peaced out with the old GOONS. I think you underestimate just how difficult it was to secure our return. I believe ODN canceled on IRON because IRON failed to tell them they allowed us to reform, funny story actually.
[/quote]

Oh, yes, I do not deny that there were quite a lot of alliances involved which still had the old GOONS as a target, necessitating a situation that had to be rectified. But we weren't one of them. [i]Our[/i] permission was never something necessary. The permission of other parties was involved, and we were tied to those parties - so you can't say that our opinion wasn't important - but we were never faced with a choice of "do we leave GOONS at peace" - because they were never a target.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Letum

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1302696185' post='2690006']
It's kind of easy to skew the stats to look good, You may be forgetting that its easy to keep NS when you hide your alliance in peace mode. Just thought I'd point that out in-case you missed it. It's also easy to keep a higher nuke count when your alliance is hiding in peace mode. It's kind of easy to keep a higher ANS when hidin..........................you get my point.[/quote]
So what? As far as I'm concerned peace mode is a useful strategic tool. If GOONS wanted to have good-looking stats, all they had to do was enter peace mode [i]before[/i] they accumulated an extra 200 members (which I'm not saying you wanted to, just that the stats look so good because you're the ones with a fetish for war).


[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1302696898' post='2690009']
You can't seriously expect me to believe that legion or invicta have as much diplomatic power as we do? I'm not trying to be arrogant here, but seriously. I'd say NSO has more political weight than Legion does.[/quote]
I don't expect you to. At the end of the day though, the only reason you have any diplomatic power at all is because you were supposedly "allowed" to reform. At least Legion never had to ask permission. But then, they didn't disband either.

NSO mostly flounders around without any real clear objective or goal, getting curbstomped multiple times on the way. That and they have RV's loud mouth(or rather, did have). They fight fiercely for their causes, I'll give them that, but my point still stands.

[quote]To: Angry, Indignant, NPO Member
Subject: RE:I Demand that you...
CC: anybody who cares what you think about our posting(null set)

If they bother you so much perhaps you shouldn't read them.

Love,
Sardonic[/quote]
But then I wouldn't laugh at the subsequent idiocy displayed, which includes yours. I mean, NPO member? [i]Really?[/i]

I thought you were the smart one out of the bunch. I was wrong.

[Borsche]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1302692025' post='2689992']
[b]The Legion[/b]:
Total strength - 4.9mil
Average - 18k
Nukes - 1,484
Nations - 269

[b]Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism[/b]:
Total strength - 1.7mil
Average - 4k
Nukes - 416
Nations - 393

Same thing with Invicta. So much meaningless hate and yet you come nowhere close on stats.

GOONS, will you [i]ever[/i] stop embarrassing yourselves?
[/quote]

[b]The Legion[/b]
Nations - 269
Anarchy - 61 (22%)
Peace Mode - 155 (58%)

[b]Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism[/b]
Nations - 393
Anarchy - 73 (18%)
Peace Mode - 30 (8%)

Legion: embarrassing themselves in war since the dawn of time. I honestly find it baffling that literally anyone, [i]anyone[/i] actually signed any kind of military treaty with The Legion since Great War III.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Borsche' timestamp='1302702488' post='2690029']
[b]The Legion[/b]
Nations - 269
Anarchy - 61 (22%)
Peace Mode - 155 (58%)

[b]Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism[/b]
Nations - 393
Anarchy - 73 (18%)
Peace Mode - 30 (8%)

Legion: embarrassing themselves in war since the dawn of time. I honestly find it baffling that literally anyone, [i]anyone[/i] actually signed any kind of military treaty with The Legion since Great War III.
[/quote]
And that's enough to place the label on them as WAE?

No. You'll have to do better than that.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1302695286' post='2690002']
[b]Stats are meaningless in measuring the power of an alliance.[/b]atleast when 4.9mil NS is being controlled by nation rulers with the experience of 7 year olds.

haha 393 nations,kinda funny that we started with 285.
[/quote]
See: thousands and thousands of thoughtless child like banter on the owf by goons members, an alliance in which 1/3 of are new nations. Warning: may cause laughter at high levels.

[Banedon]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1302675789' post='2689922']
This makes no sense. Soft power is the ability to set the agenda to advance your objectives. If GOONS have soft power 'because of who their friends are' then their friends must have the soft power. Or (as I assume you're trying to say) GOONS have soft power are use it to project the hard power of their friends. Either way, your very first statement makes no sense which doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of your paragraph.
[/quote]

My understanding of the post Ardus made was that GOONS by themselves can project Soft Power and get what they want with little or no actual violence, mere threat is enough. I think that assessment is wrong. As you said, any claim GOONS might have to Soft Power comes from their allies. I'm not sure how remarking that this Soft Power is not inherent GOONS but outside their alliance makes the rest of my argument invalid, but to each their own.

[quote]
As you have already alluded to, GOONS have some rather competent allies. Allies who will aid them. This huge funding capacity, along with their superior recruitment, means they have a huge potential for growth. This war (and pre-war evidence) shows us that GOONS, Umbrella and MK have the highest aid slot use on Bob, something that can't be said for other low ANS alliances like, say, Legion.
[/quote]

I don't have the recruitment data to do more then make a guess so forgive me if I say something that is later proven wrong.

GOONS recruit from a pool, some would say swamp, that thrives on conflict and mayhem. Nothing wrong with that, but once the war dies down GOONS numbers will drop. How much of GOONS growth is because they have good recruiters and how much of their growth is because Bob's current environment provides ideal conditions remains to be seen.

In the past Legion has been castigated for being weak because our average nation strength was much lower then that of our peers. Part of that is because, as you said, we aren't as efficient at using slots as we ought to be. The other part of that is because during the peace, we were recruiting more then our fair share of what few new nations are created.

[quote]
Wait, so just before GOONS had lots of soft power, and now suddenly that soft power is useless because of the multilateral framework that GOONS accidentally found itself in? Right...

If GOONS have soft power, and have placed themselves in an important multilateral system then they clearly do have influence. Influence is soft power. Honestly, until I saw the Legion tag I was wondering what was wrong with you.
[/quote]

As I said before, Ardus seemed to be saying that GOONS by themselves have the ability to influence people. I simply disagree with him. GOONS requires the support of their allies in the dominant power structure. To be included in this structure is a mark a deft political maneuvering and strong personal relationships. It doesn't mean that if the structure didn't exist that they would still be able to project anything.

For example, if PB/DH/CnG did not exist I believe that MK would still be very influencial as a power broker. MK is a large, well-run, respected, powerful alliance. You could make or break blocs, wars, and generally throw your weight around without having to throw nukes as well.

GOONS are a large alliance. But they don't appear to be well run from the outside, certainly not respected, and they certainly aren't very powerful in the absolute sense. If PB/DH/CnG weren't all together, GOONS would be just another tech raiding alliance. I just don't see GOONS being dangerous, influencial, or relavent to the larger alliances all on their own currently.

[quote]
Oh deary me. I can't honestly think of a single time when Legion was on top. But I can say with certainty that Legion has always been a complete and utter joke. You exist out of habit. If I had a dong for each time someone has said that Legion was about to 'resurge' I would probably have a warchest again. You have four years to turn it around, and you've persistently remained sub-par. There is no danger of Legion ever 'being on top.'
[/quote]

Granted, the time Legion was on top was back at the dawn of Bob. But we've manged to survive despite all the hatred and violence directed at us. We achieved Sanction in spite of the world, not because of it. Will we ever achieve domination like NPO? No, we don't want to live that way. Will we ever be king of the heap like were in the distant past? Doubtful.

Out of curiosity, what's 'par'? Seriously, I'd like to know.

Our 'sub-par' alliance has survived everything that the citizens of Bob have ever tried to throw at us. We re-achieved Sanction with most of the world wanting to spit in our eye or slit our throat. We are being torn down yet again, but we will survive. If that's sub-par, then so be it.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Banedon

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1302703609' post='2690036']
See: thousands and thousands of thoughtless child like banter on the owf by goons members, an alliance in which 1/3 of are new nations. Warning: may cause laughter at high levels.
[/quote]
New nations pounding you back to the stone age

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1302706513' post='2690048']
New nations pounding you back to the stone age
[/quote]
yabba dabba do sugar, keep them coming. Still got a stack of nukes for them. Seriously, at this point if you haven't realized my infra is [b]not[/b] my highest priority here then you need help.

edit: page 213, come on everyone you know we can do it if we put our minds to it.

Edited April 13, 2011 by William Bonney

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1302703664' post='2690037']
blah blah blah
[/quote]
I'll give you a hint: Who do you think came up with Doomhouse?

<-- this guy.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1302707502' post='2690051']
I'll give you a hint: Who do you think came up with Doomhouse?

<-- this guy.
[/quote]

no it was me, you promised


YOU PROMISED

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Borsche' timestamp='1302702488' post='2690029']
[b]The Legion[/b]
Nations - 269
Anarchy - 61 (22%)
Peace Mode - 155 (58%) [color="#0000FF"]<- Follow a war strategy, thus number is artificially high[/color]

[b]Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism[/b]
Nations - [b]393[/b] [color="#0000FF"]<- puffed up by off-world "war volunteers" who will start disappearing after the shooting stops, actual number is around the same size as Legion[/color]
Anarchy - 73 (18%) [color="#0000FF"]<- in other words you have approximately the same number in anarchy...which is funny, given the millions that Umb and MK are pouring into the alliance[/color]
Peace Mode - 30 (8%)

Legion: embarrassing themselves in war since the dawn of time. I honestly find it baffling that literally anyone, [i]anyone[/i] actually signed any kind of military treaty with The Legion since Great War III. [color="#0000FF"]<- Since Great War III GOONS has disbanded once, came back with NPO support. Legion faced disbandment but members worked with NPO to prevent it. Both GOONS and Legion have been on the winning and losing end of wars since.[/color]
[/quote]

WAE, huh?

I see pot calling kettle black, no pun intended.

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1302708682' post='2690055']
WAE, huh?

I see pot calling kettle black, no pun intended.
[/quote]
Sorry those GOONS were called Neutral Shoving,we are Negligence and Sadism.
this alliance was formed in 2009 and it never disbanded.

and the reason old GOONS disbanded was because of treachery which led to their ultimate defeat at warfare.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Lord Velox

[Borsche]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1302708682' post='2690055']
WAE, huh?

I see pot calling kettle black, no pun intended.
[/quote]

A war strategy is to hide in peace mode and let the allies get pounded? Let's not joke around here. The Hopeless Coalition had the numbers advantage, especially at the lower levels. But instead of swarming the low levels, efficiently coordinating triple teams and filling all of Doom House's defensive slots, they bumbled around and jumped into peace mode en masse. It's turned into a situation now where they actually have to remain in peace mode, making it that much easier for Doom House to utilize aid and grow. It's a strategy, I suppose I can give you that much, but it is a strategy that will ultimately end in failure.

I mean, surely it's not just me is it? The Hopeless Coalition can't possible think that mass peace mode is an effective strategy. All it does is reduce what few advantages you actually have and make it so that Doom House's forces are able to coordinate and grow unimpeded.