An Imperial Announcement from the New Pacific Order

[o-dog]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Very constructive input from the DH troll brigade.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='mikk206' timestamp='1300013080' post='2662789']
All of this discussion here is so stupid. If FAN has something to say I'm very interested in hearing it, but MK, VE, GOONS and PC trolls.... why do you care? And why are our guys falling for their flame bates?


Anyhow all I actually wanted to say is that imperial degrees don't look the same with out a nice *chuckle* in the begining
[/quote]

If they had anything to say I would hazard a guess that it would've already been said by now.

You guys do understand that you will need more than this apology if you do want to make things right with FAN? I can't speak for them but I have a feeling that a public apology spanning a paragraph isn't going to make up for the betrayal and the two years you kept them at war.

If this apology has any sincerity at all it's at least a start, albeit a very very late start.

[Panic King]

For NPO's next act they will apologize for rolling CIS.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Panic King

[Tequila Mockingbird]

The timing of this apology didn't matter in the slightest, people were going to use any reason they could to discredit it.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1299991491' post='2662396']
And therein lies the problem, they should have done it [i]after[/i] the war. Anyone can apologize with a gun at their head.
[/quote]

And an apology at gunpoint, possibly as a part of a peace agreement would have been more sincere?
I am a firm believer in second chances and those start with acknowledging wrongs committed in the past.

It doesn't matter if you believe that this is a mere PR stunt or a sincere apology, what matters is that this apology is public.
Your reaction shows insincerity because you believe that this could possibly remove one of the alliances which keep GOONS alive through their military support and aid chains.

As for me, i am going to watch this development closely to see how it develops.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Panic King' timestamp='1300019528' post='2662841']
For NPO's next act they will apologize for rolling CIS.
[/quote]

CIS has to be on the winning side of a war against them first. Only then will they get their apology.

Speaking of which, have NPO ever apologised for something when there wasn't a gun pointed at their head? (I imagine there is, however nothing springs to mind)

Edited March 13, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Bob Janova]

Well, you clearly didn't believe this when you started VietFAN II, despite being told exactly what you're now posting by several people. You didn't believe it while you continued the war against them for over a year, until your power structure was no longer able to sustain it. The facts of what you speak about haven't changed (I'm sure you haven't just turned up a list of violations that was hiding behind a cupboard or something). So what has changed to make you believe it now, other than that you are now being rolled by (among others) FAN and you want to be able to exit the war sooner and with less harsh terms?

I'd like to believe that the NPO has actually done some self inspection and realised that some things in its past are wrong. But the timing here is very suspicious. You claim that war 'reminded' you of the incident, but you were reminded of it many times in the past, by FAN posters like Atrophis, by Vox after the BLEU war and through war in Karma (when you even gave FAN peace! surely enough of a reminder!).

[Jaiar]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300021017' post='2662858']
Well, you clearly didn't believe this when you started VietFAN II, despite being told exactly what you're now posting by several people. You didn't believe it while you continued the war against them for over a year, until your power structure was no longer able to sustain it. The facts of what you speak about haven't changed (I'm sure you haven't just turned up a list of violations that was hiding behind a cupboard or something). So what has changed to make you believe it now, other than that you are now being rolled by (among others) FAN and you want to be able to exit the war sooner and with less harsh terms?

I'd like to believe that the NPO has actually done some self inspection and realised that some things in its past are wrong. But the timing here is very suspicious. You claim that war 'reminded' you of the incident, but you were reminded of it many times in the past, by FAN posters like Atrophis, by Vox after the BLEU war and through war in Karma (when you even gave FAN peace! surely enough of a reminder!).
[/quote]
You and alot of people are missing the point. This is a dialogue that has been going on with FAN. It is not an attempt to get better terms or shorten this war. We are fully ready to continue this war for however long it takes. We will not being paying reps.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300021017' post='2662858']
Well, you clearly didn't believe this when you started VietFAN II, despite being told exactly what you're now posting by several people. You didn't believe it while you continued the war against them for over a year, until your power structure was no longer able to sustain it. The facts of what you speak about haven't changed (I'm sure you haven't just turned up a list of violations that was hiding behind a cupboard or something). So what has changed to make you believe it now, other than that you are now being rolled by (among others) FAN and you want to be able to exit the war sooner and with less harsh terms?

I'd like to believe that the NPO has actually done some self inspection and realised that some things in its past are wrong. But the timing here is very suspicious. You claim that war 'reminded' you of the incident, but you were reminded of it many times in the past, by FAN posters like Atrophis, by Vox after the BLEU war and through war in Karma (when you even gave FAN peace! surely enough of a reminder!).
[/quote]
Thos will be hard for you to believe..but..opinions do change

hindsight 20/20 and such

[Mark Ashton]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300021017' post='2662858']
Well, you clearly didn't believe this when you started VietFAN II, despite being told exactly what you're now posting by several people. You didn't believe it while you continued the war against them for over a year, until your power structure was no longer able to sustain it. The facts of what you speak about haven't changed (I'm sure you haven't just turned up a list of violations that was hiding behind a cupboard or something). So what has changed to make you believe it now, other than that you are now being rolled by (among others) FAN and you want to be able to exit the war sooner and with less harsh terms?

I'd like to believe that the NPO has actually done some self inspection and realised that some things in its past are wrong. But the timing here is very suspicious. You claim that war 'reminded' you of the incident, but you were reminded of it many times in the past, by FAN posters like Atrophis, by Vox after the BLEU war and through war in Karma (when you even gave FAN peace! surely enough of a reminder!).
[/quote]

When will Bob Janova apologize for the actions of Viridia?

[Taget]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1299994011' post='2662462']
Yea I know very un-expected.

You know if NPO actually is interested in apologizing to people and making up for past wrongs then good for you guys. I'm a little cautious, but being the nice guy I am I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say good job on this one.

Also does IAA get their own thread for what happened with them. Can GATO get their own thread too? Even though I don't like most of them would you like to apologize to all the ex-Legion members too? or do we have to attack you guys before we can get one?
[/quote]

If a tree fell in a forest and NPO didn't apologize for it falling.... did that tree truly fall?

The whole Karma thing over two years ago was supposed to be for settling accounts with apologies and various scapegoats for past transgressions made to "pay." But I guess a little more was needed and this apology is certainly a nice gesture even if by everyones account it would've been better delivered years ago.

And years ago is the whole problem for this entire conversation. I've been in this world nearly three and a half years now. Seems a ridiculous amount of time and makes me feel old. Yet most stuff being dredged up and argued over predates that by quite awhile. It's stale. It's boring. And hopefully once this war is over people can finally turn the page. I've seen these type of grudges in other worlds go on for years and years. Eventually everyone except the bitter old men leave and all you have is a pathetic shell left over.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1300001575' post='2662654']
NPO never made any significant outreach to anyone post war (this is covered in detail in the "will your opinion of NPO/NpO change" thread) to change the public perception that NPO was still the NPO that pissed enough people off to kick off Karma. I've even already admitted its not fair, since its rather hard to prove a motive behind an action, but it is the situation they are in.

NPO's lack of out reach post war meant the image that remained was that NPO hadn't changed at all, all the 'changes' came at gunpoint, so the idea that NPO would go right back to 'business as usual' from pre-karma if they could is prevalent. This is reinforced by ex-NPO members who have left since Karma saying that's exactly the mindset they have.
[/quote]

Behind the scenes they have. And they've been met with indifference and hostility. Not just due to history. Though that is a big part of it. This war shows the very reason why most alliances are not all that interested in NPO. They are a large isolated target and if you ever signed a high level treaty with them it may very well be a suicide pact. And given the outrage and contempt many felt at TIO for them signing a low level treaty with NPO. Is it really worth the effort to listen?

What NPO needs is not more "sincerity" or "effort"... what they need is for the world to change to the extent that they become useful to ally with against an enemy that is far more hated. Then people will let bygones be bygones. While they are weak... why forgive? They are a fun little pinata you can beat and blame for every grievance you ever had. Who doesn't like that?

[Lord Fingolfin]

Perhaps a step in the right direction? Time will tell

[alyster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1300019232' post='2662839']You guys do understand that you will need more than this apology if you do want to make things right with FAN? I can't speak for them but I have a feeling that a public apology spanning a paragraph isn't going to make up for the betrayal and the two years you kept them at war.

If this apology has any sincerity at all it's at least a start, albeit a very very late start.
[/quote]

Well if you'd read the OP it pretty much says so as well.

PS. When did you wonder off to Umbrella?

Edited March 13, 2011 by mikk206

[mmansfield68]

[quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1300020001' post='2662848']
And an apology at gunpoint, possibly as a part of a peace agreement would have been more sincere?
I am a firm believer in second chances and those start with acknowledging wrongs committed in the past.

It doesn't matter if you believe that this is a mere PR stunt or a sincere apology, what matters is that this apology is public.
[/quote]
Well said. A public apology is no small thing, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it.

[Londo Mollari]

Were the actions perpetrated by NPO to have taken place in a more physical realm, NPO would most assuredly have been guilty of war crimes and subject to trial and execution of its leadership, and forced change of regime for its people. The old symbols would be outlawed and their display would be counted a hate crime. Those of us who peer through the dimensional portals may know something of this. And yet, here an alliance may reinvent themselves and walk a new path. If we deny this, we condemn ourselves to repeat the history of this place over and over, and we prescribe that we actors shall eternally perform the same play over and over and over again until the actors have grown weary of their lines and the audience has fled the theater of boredom. Whose "crime" is worse?


Let go.

[SynthFG]

Interesting
Will NPO now offer to compensate FAN for the damage caused, lost growth and 2 wasted years,
The true costs would run into billions but a token offer should be made don't you think

[Spaniard United]

o/ FAN, long overdue.

Unfortunate my slots have been filled mostly by GOONs, FAN is the only alliance in this war I don't mind fighting.

Let's slug it out for now and just maybe afterwards we can have a few beers and try and figure out how to move forward.

[potato]

I doubt this apology is entirely sincere and genuine, seeing as you tried a similar PR stunt during Karma and never have been apologetic about much before. This seems so out of character for NPO, it's not believable. But, in the end, it's FAN's call to decide how they want to react to this.

[Balkan Banania]

What people don’t understand is that Pacifica change and evolves, as it's in her nature (the same applies obviously to some other alliances out there). History allows people to reevaluate their actions and theirs actions’ consequences. As we know most of the times this kind of self-criticism come to maturity during or after a difficult phase. For us it was Armageddon (Karma) war. Personally I have seen a notion of guilt from some of my comrades during the Armageddon (Karma). This guilt was cleansed as the aftermath of the war, and transformed to determination due to the recent aggression by the same alliances.

FAN is a different story. After the Karma war and in the frame of the reevaluation process and self-criticism there were people feeling guilty for the second FAN war, while the newer members were seeing it as overkill. Obviously the Armageddon war did little to take care of the consciousness of guilt concerning FAN, so an internal process was evolving bringing us here. Add to the self-criticism the fact that many Pacificans respect FANers for the determination and resilience they displayed and you have a sincere apology that we don’t expect nor want to affect the war. The only sure thing is that we are not going to ask for reparation from FAN when this war ends

[quote name='MrCynic' timestamp='1300013176' post='2662791']
And moving with the relative apology speed of the Vatican...
[/quote]
That's an interesting parallelism.

[Feuersturm]

[quote name='SynthFG' timestamp='1300030188' post='2662952']
Interesting
Will NPO now offer to compensate FAN for the damage caused, lost growth and 2 wasted years,
The true costs would run into billions but a token offer should be made don't you think
[/quote]

We will use the compensation we get from you guys for jumping on us in this war out of the blue.

[Penkala]

Honestly, this doesn't mean much right now. You should have swallowed your pride and done it when FAN [i]didn't[/i] have a knife at your throat.

It is kind of funny to see Pacifica groveling, though.

Also, what Sardonic said:

[quote]This really should have been done significantly before the war, or even after this war. During the war just makes it look bad.[/quote]

[quote]However, this matter is between FAN and NPO. [/quote]

Not anymore it's not. You made this public.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Penkala

[Feuersturm]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300031873' post='2662971']
Honestly, this doesn't mean much right now. You should have swallowed your pride and done it when FAN [i]didn't[/i] have a knife at your throat.

It is kind of funny to see Pacifica groveling, though.
[/quote]

FAN does not have a knife to our throat. The military contribution of everyone else is far greater than that of FAN's. If FAN dropped out of this war this very second, do you really have such a poor opinion of your military that it would change the outcome of this war?

As it has been stated, we are expecting this war to drag out for a long time. Better to post the apology now than later, as if we did it after the war it would STILL be considered a PR stunt by DH.

edit: Well...FAN's soldiers have been tougher than those I have fought from the other alliances, so I can see why you would think that.

edit to your edit: If we did it post-KARMA, we would be criticized for trying to nuzzle up to the people that beat us, and would still be a PR-Stunt. If we did it closer to the start of this war, it would be ignored nonetheless.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Feuersturm

[Dan2680]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1299998763' post='2662592']
I know and I care.

More on topic, the people who caused the majority of the problems left the alliance soon after the war went south. The remaining, more moderate, government of old GOONS should have been allowed to surrender.
[/quote]

Lol, not that I expect much from LOLhouse but... I know its hard to see things even just a few feet away from you, but I think NPO has gone through the same transformation? More specifically, the government who declared war on GOONS and FAN arent the ones making the decisions now...

So you cant moan about it being done to you, when you are now the ones doing it.

[KahlanRahl]

So GPA is next, right?

I truly hope this is sincere, Pacifica.

[Brenann]

NPO can donate millions to a charity, spread goodwill and help the downtrodden, give candy to babies and we will still be painted as the evil monsters. So be it.

We did not do this for you (the peanut gallery). If FAN wants to call BS and tell us to take our apology and to stuff it then so be it. We did not do this because we were asked to, we did it because it is the right thing to do. Everyone can take it how they will and will run off at the mouth as though they spout gospel but it wont change the fact that we recognize that FAN is the ONLY alliance who we currently face that actually means something to us. Everyone understands the others are just children throwing a temper tantrum.