RoK is no longer SuperFriendly

[Chalaskan]

I recall a similar move being made by Citadel in expelling a member. Shortly after it went every way but better. This may be the beginning of the end for SF as I am sure their had to be some disagreements between the other signatories. Regardless, good luck to you all.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1299819610' post='2659588']
Like I said, grade-school antics. "wow billy, if you're gonna be friends with johnny then we're not friends anymore!"

I understand how bloc politics work, I dealt with my share of it in AZTEC, one of the most (if not THE most) cohesive blocs around here, and their individual members have ties that are so random that one week they can all be on the same side (in terms of individual treaties) and the next week you have 2 coalitions claiming to have support from AZTEC.... the only difference between them and SF is that they treat those issues like adults.

Giving someone an ultimatum such as that makes you look like the jerk in the situation, and if the other party had any stones they would ditch you, otherwise all you've done is secured the loyalty of a spineless government. In this case, RoK had the stones to recognize and ditch a !@#$%* relationship.
[/quote]

It seems obvious to me that for a bloc to be useful in any way, all of its members must fight together on the same side. That's the whole point. So when that fails to be the case in a global war (especially one where a bloc had agreed beforehand who they would side with), either the divergent member needs to realign itself on a course parallel to the other members, or it needs to retire from the bloc. The choice was made, and I think it is probably for the best.

I'll re-iterate my well wishes to Ragnarok, they have been a stalwart ally for a long time.

[Systemfailure]

anyone thinking that this really needed a comic book cover for this annoucement?

always go out with a bang

[youwish959]

[quote name='Liz Girard' timestamp='1299785448' post='2658833']
Goose has been on vacation sipping Tequila. So you're talking out of your ass here buddy.
RoK was not told to get in line. SF laid out our FA plans and feelings, RoK laid out theirs.
The two didn't match.
A compromise could not be reached.
NO ONE WAS TOLD BY ANYONE TO DROP TREATIES.
Friends parted ways.
[/quote]
So, what you are saying is KaitlinK is lying?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1299819970' post='2659595']
Sounds like in this case it goes both ways then since none of the concerned alliances cared to compromise.
[/quote]

Well I think that's a matter of semantics as far as my point goes. If (For whatever reason) you and your bloc disagree about major FA points, clearly the bloc isn't the place for you anymore. I didn't mean it as a dig at either Rok or SF, merely a recognition of realities. If you don't fit, you should not remain.

[King Wally]

[quote name='Systemfailure' timestamp='1299822292' post='2659629']
anyone thinking that this really needed a comic book cover for this annoucement?

always go out with a bang
[/quote]

hows this...?
[img]http://www.bamkapow.com/bk_images/2008/12/11/monkey-knife-fight.jpg[/img]
o/ remembering the good times... those balmy summer nights around the monkey knife fighting pit with friends

[Mesteut]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1299822600' post='2659634']
So, what you are saying is KaitlinK is lying?
[/quote]
Or jumping into conclusions. Or being ignorant. Or maybe none of them?

No precise statement about KaitlinK can be found in that post, all you can infer is that the responded statement was wrong.

A better stated way to word a question would be: Is KaitlinK lying then?

[Heft]

[quote name='Mesteut' timestamp='1299822990' post='2659641']
Or jumping into conclusions. Or being ignorant. Or maybe none of them?

No precise statement about KaitlinK can be found in that post, all you can infer is that the responded statement was wrong.

A better stated way to word a question would be: Is KaitlinK lying then?
[/quote]
The thread already came to a consensus awhile back that Liz was the one lying. Or, I don't know, being deliberately underinformed or something.

[Systemfailure]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1299822913' post='2659640']
hows this...?
[img]http://www.bamkapow.com/bk_images/2008/12/11/monkey-knife-fight.jpg[/img]
o/ remembering the good times... those balmy summer nights around the monkey knife fighting pit with friends
[/quote]
Yes,Yes,Yes!

Best of luck to the remaining SuperFriends

[KagetheSecond]

[quote name='Liz Girard' timestamp='1299785448' post='2658833']
Goose has been on vacation sipping Tequila. So you're talking out of your ass here buddy.
RoK was not told to get in line. SF laid out our FA plans and feelings, RoK laid out theirs.
The two didn't match.
A compromise could not be reached.
NO ONE WAS TOLD BY ANYONE TO DROP TREATIES.
Friends parted ways.
[/quote]
You're super friendly!

[Mesteut]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1299823310' post='2659645']
The thread already came to a consensus awhile back that Liz was the one lying. Or, I don't know, being deliberately underinformed or something.
[/quote]
I've seen no consensus. Your side of the "discussion" has already decided on what to believe, and is sticking to it.

I'd welcome you posting evidence pointing otherwise.

[CptGodzilla]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1299819771' post='2659591']
They're losing everyone else though, in their efforts to show those in charge that they'll be a well behaved puppet of the New Hegemony. Everyone except of course those who in turn suck up to GOD.

The fact is, GOD is rapidly becoming isolated, and soon their [i]only[/i] ties to anyone of real power will be to the New Hegemony. And once that happens, well... We all saw what happened to NEW, didn't we? When GOD can no longer bring anything substantial to the table, the New Hegemony will be done with them, they'll be just another meat shield to be disposed of at the most convenient moment.

[b]And GOD knows that, that's why this move by RoK digs at them so much.[/b]
[/quote]

Or it could be because we have been allies for [i]years[/i] which has allowed flourishing friendships (both IC and OOC) between the two alliances.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1299822913' post='2659640']
hows this...?
[img]http://www.bamkapow.com/bk_images/2008/12/11/monkey-knife-fight.jpg[/img]
o/ remembering the good times... those balmy summer nights around the monkey knife fighting pit with friends
[/quote]

The best part is RIA making out with themselves in the back.

[Heft]

[quote name='Mesteut' timestamp='1299823732' post='2659653']
I've seen no consensus. Your side of the "discussion" has already decided on what to believe, and is sticking to it.

I'd welcome you posting evidence pointing otherwise.
[/quote]
Well the people who are actually involved with and familiar with the issue were the ones I was referring to, and you'd be much better off referring any such questions to them.

[hizzy]

[quote name='Mesteut' timestamp='1299823732' post='2659653']
I've seen no consensus. Your side of the "discussion" has already decided on what to believe, and is sticking to it.

I'd welcome you posting evidence pointing otherwise.
[/quote]

Considering people who are far more competent, credible, and likely to actually know what's going on have stated so, while the only thing Liz has going for her is Caps Lock, I'd say a consensus has been reached.

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1299822913' post='2659640']
hows this...?
[img]http://www.bamkapow.com/bk_images/2008/12/11/monkey-knife-fight.jpg[/img]
o/ remembering the good times... those balmy summer nights around the monkey knife fighting pit with friends
[/quote]

uhh... what the hell is Batman doing to that innocent boy?

[Systemfailure]

Rules of SF
#1 Dont question batman, EVER.
#2 See #1
#3 Don't pee on the rug

[shahenshah]

Gotta do what you gotta do, GL RoK.

Edited March 11, 2011 by shahenshah

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1299788593' post='2658915']
I would've liked to wish RoK all the best, but taking pot shots at your former allies on your way out shows how little class you have. Glad you could at least do SF a favor by leaving. I hope you get backstabbed by Polaris like so many alliances have in the past. From all the history with SF I seen, I know that wouldn't have happened there. SF offered you good advice and you were just too prideful and stubborn to heed it. It would be like if iFOK DoW'ed MK in support of the NPO and the rest of PB told iFOK to stop, and we told them to get lost and left PB saying how they wanted to control our FA path. That situation is about as dumb as the one you find yourself in. Congrats. ;)
[/quote]

Yea that's not how it would be at all.

It would kind of be like if SF (another bloc that iFOK is not a part of) decided they were going to roll SLCB. (an ally of iFOK's that is not in iFOK's bloc). Then FARK (a MDoAP ally of iFOK with strong connections to the bloc wanting to roll SLCB) hit SLCB. Let's say in this instance you chose to defend SLCB. Then your allies in PB said "drop the SLCB treaty or you'll be out of our bloc".


Now that would be a fair analogy to make.

[Mesteut]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1299824310' post='2659665']
Well the people who are actually involved with and familiar with the issue were the ones I was referring to, and you'd be much better off referring any such questions to them.
[/quote]
It's time for a compare and contrast! Going from everything on this thread at your disposal:

Ragnarok support arguments:
- RoK is standing by her allies.
- SF tried to directly impose collective FA directives onto RoK.
- SF threatened with expulsion over the matter.
- Xiphosis is an evil puppet-master that arranged this.

Superfriends support arguments:
- Superfriends Pact is a treaty that supercedes any other treaty.
- Ragnarok has, currently AND in the past, openly took sides that conflicted with the interests of the greater good of the pact.
- Superfriends never collectively threathened RoK with expulsion. Xiphosis told he could bring up the vote.

Facts in thread / General information on how things work:
- RoK had shown that their loyalty lies to other alliances first.
- Superfriends Pact is superceding, it's in its very nature that the pact must come first.
- In a system where a nation can transition from one alliance to another at will (as opposed to a system in an alternative context where nations would be bound to geopolitical constraints), it is simple paranoia to think that one person can manipulate masses that form a sovereign alliance. Especially when each single nation has access to unrestricted communication.
- Ragnarok, instead of actually discussing it with the Superfriends (as friends do), has decided to leave Superfriends, and not in a friendly manner.

Now, tell me please, why should I believe in your side of the argument? As I told before, you're [i]very welcome[/i] to present hard evidence to sway me from my position.

To any outside observer, I'd urge you to consider a broader perspective before deciding what your opinion on the matter is. Information is easy to manipulate.

Hizzy: Please. You're forgetting I have convenient access to our side of politics. You're welcome to prove them wrong, by presenting logical counter-points against our side of the argument. If you are going to repeat the conspiracy theory, you might as well give verifiable observations backing your statements. Tinfoil hats are a little out of fashion.

[Beauty]

[quote name='Mesteut' timestamp='1299826366' post='2659699']
It's time for a compare and contrast! Going from everything on this thread at your disposal:

Ragnarok support arguments:
- RoK is standing by her allies.
- SF tried to directly impose collective FA directives onto RoK.
- SF threatened with expulsion over the matter.
- Xiphosis is an evil puppet-master that arranged this.

Superfriends support arguments:
- Superfriends Pact is a treaty that supercedes any other treaty.
- Ragnarok has, currently AND in the past, openly took sides that conflicted with the interests of the greater good of the pact.
- Superfriends never collectively threathened RoK with expulsion. Xiphosis told he could bring up the vote.

Facts in thread / General information on how things work:
- RoK had shown that their loyalty lies to other alliances first.
- Superfriends Pact is superceding, it's in its very nature that the pact must come first.
- In a system where a nation can transition from one alliance to another at will (as opposed to a system in an alternative context where nations would be bound to geopolitical constraints), it is simple paranoia to think that one person can manipulate masses that form a sovereign alliance. Especially when each single nation has access to unrestricted communication.
- Ragnarok, instead of actually discussing it with the Superfriends (as friends do), has decided to leave Superfriends, and not in a friendly manner.

Now, tell me please, why should I believe in your side of the argument? As I told before, you're [i]very welcome[/i] to present hard evidence to sway me from my position.

To any outside observer, I'd urge you to consider a broader perspective before deciding what your opinion on the matter is. Information is easy to manipulate.

Hizzy: Please. You're forgetting I have convenient access to our side of politics. You're welcome to prove them wrong, by presenting logical counter-points against our side of the argument. If you are going to repeat the conspiracy theory, you might as well give verifiable observations backing your statements. Tinfoil hats are a little out of fashion.
[/quote]

If you feel this way about RoK why is CSN MDoAPed with them?

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1299826551' post='2659704']
If you feel this way about RoK why is CSN MDoAPed with them?
[/quote]

Members of the Commonwealth are free to express themselves in public, even if their opinions are not aligned with alliance policy.

More importantly: after I put so much time into writing our Constitution, we sure as hell had better follow it!

[Beauty]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299826847' post='2659706']
Members of the Commonwealth are free to express themselves in public, even if their opinions are not aligned with alliance policy.

More importantly: after I put so much time into writing our Constitution, we sure as hell had better follow it!
[/quote]

Then why the Liz Situation?

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1299826967' post='2659708']
Then why the Liz Situation?
[/quote]

I believe there have been more than one of those, you'll have to be more specific.

[Mesteut]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1299826551' post='2659704']
If you feel this way about RoK why is CSN MDoAPed with them?
[/quote]
- Those are what I gather from this thread alone. The other side would be alliances like NoR, which are very happily trying to consolidate RoK's new allegiance.
- My personal belief is that RoK should stop with this nonsense, get their wits together, withdraw their... withdrawal, and get a proper discussion with Superfriends going. This situation is simply infuriating, and this thread serves nothing but to antagonize people.
- THEY decided to leave Superfriends - this is what this thread is about. While RoK's leadership may have decided that abondoning people they had called friends before all is a good idea, RoK as a group is a good bunch, a bunch with good friends as you can observe from some RoK & CSN posts in this thread and a direct treaty cancellation should only come up [i]if the political situation leaves us with no other option[/i]. I'll argue otherwise, but we have actual discussions with the whole of the alliance before acting on stuff, so my voice is one in the whole.

[Mesteut]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1299826967' post='2659708']
Then why the Liz Situation?
[/quote]
[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299826847' post='2659706']
Members of the Commonwealth are free to express themselves in public, even if their opinions are not aligned with alliance policy.

More importantly: after I put so much time into writing our Constitution, we sure as hell had better follow it!
[/quote]
Turns out Liz is another person in the Commonwealth. The concept of a government member not acting like an "Overmind" might be strange to you, maybe?