CSN/DT/Legacy/LoSS/R&R Peace Agreement

[Neuronia]

I suppose I could say a few things about CSN, but it's much more fun to watch them hoist by their own petards.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Neuronia' timestamp='1299024532' post='2648795']
I suppose I could say a few things about CSN, but it's much more fun to watch them hoist by their own petards.
[/quote]

[i]Who[/i] are we hoisting with our petards?

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299023793' post='2648780']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=34051
[/quote]
RnR, Umbrella, MCXA, the Grämlins, Valhalla, FARK, FOK and TOP.

I'm glad you think that all of these alliances = Valhalla. I'm sure they'll get right around to fixing their alliance affiliation.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1299025172' post='2648808']
RnR, Umbrella, MCXA, the Grämlins, Valhalla, FARK, FOK and TOP.

I'm glad you think that all of these alliances = Valhalla. I'm sure they'll get right around to fixing their alliance affiliation.
[/quote]

Ah, so we are back to the argument that distributing the reparations among more alliances somehow makes them easier to pay?

Your alliance was party to terms in which 30 nations had to pay 60,000 tech. My alliance has now been party to terms in which 20 nations have to pay 5,000 tech. You were never really punished for what you did (although Bud and Joe say you were, somewhat). So I suppose we can expect to be punished 1/8th as harshly (that of course assumes that that set of peace terms is the only thing Valhalla would have to be punished for), which seems ok to me.

12 days without external aid, (uncountable * 1/8) hours of rebuilding relations...

Edited March 2, 2011 by Lord Brendan

[darkfox]

I hope this shows DT that honoring treaties is a horrible idea /sarcasm


Congrats on peace.

[AuiNur]

Onwards, to 80 pages!

o/ Loss, o/ DT.

o/ Legacy.

hehehehe, cwutididther?
*glares at CsN*

Edited March 2, 2011 by AuiNur

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299025539' post='2648814']
Ah, so we are back to the argument that distributing the reparations among more alliances somehow makes them easier to pay? [/quote]

Not at all. You tried to pin the entirety of these terms on Joe and Valhalla. This is what i was correcting.

[quote]Your alliance was party to terms in which 30 nations had to pay 60,000 tech. My alliance has now been party to terms in which 20 nations have to pay 5,000 tech. You were never really punished for what you did (although Bud and Joe say you were, somewhat). So I suppose we can expect to be punished 1/8th as harshly (that of course assumes that that set of peace terms is the only thing Valhalla would have to be punished for), which seems ok to me.

12 days without external aid, (uncountable * 1/8) hours of rebuilding relations...
[/quote]

Comparing Polar to DT is a bit dishonest. CSN didn't have a history with DT. You do now though.

As far as our "punishment" that we received during Karma, it's not our fault that we were hit by AA's that didn't already have a grudge against us. Trust me when i say, we were as shocked as the OWF that we were offered terms at all.

CSN have jumped into and been dragged through the mud in this one. You've lost huge amounts of respect from people on both sides of the aisle. No alliance remains on the same side of the peace table forever, eventually you'll be on the other side again. This is when you may come to regret these past couple weeks since the PR hit you took doesn't seem to phase you. Maybe you get off easy, and only have all external relations cut for 90 days, or you get slammed with punitive reps, either way, you won't find any sympathy from the rest of Planet Bob.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1299027060' post='2648841']
CSN have jumped into and been dragged through the mud in this one. You've lost huge amounts of respect from people on both sides of the aisle. No alliance remains on the same side of the peace table forever, eventually you'll be on the other side again. This is when you may come to regret these past couple weeks since the PR hit you took doesn't seem to phase you. Maybe you get off easy, and only have all external relations cut for 90 days, or you get slammed with punitive reps, either way, you won't find any sympathy from the rest of Planet Bob.
[/quote]

The idea that up until now if we lost a war we'd be given easy terms and now all of a sudden if we lose a war we'll be punished harshly is ridiculous. The terms the defeated are given depend almost entirely on who is giving them, regardless of what kind of terms you've given in the past. I highly doubt that our future selves will be treated any differently should we lose a war based on what happened here. Although as you say, we may get less popular support if we're treated harshly. I can deal.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1299027060' post='2648841']
CSN have jumped into and been dragged through the mud in this one. You've lost huge amounts of respect from people on both sides of the aisle. No alliance remains on the same side of the peace table forever, eventually you'll be on the other side again. This is when you may come to regret these past couple weeks since the PR hit you took doesn't seem to phase you. Maybe you get off easy, and only have all external relations cut for 90 days, or you get slammed with punitive reps, either way, you won't find any sympathy from the rest of Planet Bob.
[/quote]

Then surely fate will judge us accordingly should that time come and we will be unsurprised. As Mark Twain wrote, "History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme." No one is exempt from karma and I wouldn't expect (or conclude) that CSN is any different. Personally, as its Minister of Foreign Affairs, I have an uphill battle (perhaps it's more to the liking of trying to run up the cliff-face of a canyon) ahead. We will see, in good time, what happens, but I am damned sure that something was learned by everyone (the peanut gallery included). Whether you learned that CSN is a greedy lot, or extortionists, or bullies, or opportunists, or bellicose fear mongers, or whatever group of adjectives you feel needs to be brought together, I can only say that I do hope that, in some way, that will be softened out in the long term.

If not, then I understand and accept that as all are entitled to their opinions. But what you will not see is any apology from me or anyone else from CSN so if that is what you are looking forward to, don't hold your breath. Mistakes were made, egos clashed, tempers flared, and events beyond any party's control played rather crucial factors in both the time line and context of the negotiations.

DT and LoSS fought the hard fight. DT dished out a disproportionate amount of damage and remained steadfast to their convictions while LoSS opted to stay in the ring after TIO was granted peace. I can only be grateful that Legacy and RnR, along with our other friends and allies, stuck by us, despite us being (seemingly) the most immoral alliance this war.

[CzarBomba]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1299021710' post='2648728']
Oh God... I have just been compared to Sarm. By all that is holy kill me now.
[/quote]
It was meant strictly in the cake eatingest sense of the... I don't know what.
Everyone likes cake yes?

More on topic... congrats to everyone involved here.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Drugsup' timestamp='1299018201' post='2648624']
I bow to your superiour puns.
[/quote]
Hey, at least you knew what I meant, I doubt anyone else did.

[filno619]

this is cool .

[Proxian Empire]

Wow CSN, you are greedy beyond comprehension. You are next on the list to be rolled.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='King Penchuk' timestamp='1299031850' post='2649023']
Wow CSN, you are greedy beyond comprehension. You are next on the list to be rolled.
[/quote]

Whose list is the important thing here.

Also the greed thing has been debunked enough times now.

[Kryievla]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1299032191' post='2649038']
Also the greed thing has been debunked enough times now.
[/quote]

Debunked?

When did this happen?

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Kryievla' timestamp='1299034839' post='2649108']
Debunked?

When did this happen?
[/quote]

Probably in this thread, several times in the other. Search my posts if you want.

It's common sense though. We did not profit from taking reparations and could clearly have predicted such when we entered the war, so obviously greed was not a factor.

[HeRo1]

1.5 infra... 1.5...... couldn't we had gone on just a bit longer so i could had been ZI'd. Also, im glad CSN finally got peace, i was tired of them being in the top 7 smallest alliance gains.

0/ Legacy
0/ LoSS
0/ DT (Don't forget my kittens)

Also, i <3 Sarm

[hizzy]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1299000018' post='2648253']
Yeah man $%&@ listening to Penkala bringing in all these so-called 'facts' that directly refute our statements. That's just propaganda. You should listen to my theory about how CSN joined this war to profit off of fairly low reps that don't cover 5% of the damage instead!

Thanks for your input in the DT threads, Hizzy. You sure are spot on.

Also, I love the DT member admitting that the 20k tech is light. Well, when it's convenient to portray it that way at least. Otherwise CSN are evil monsters (not Legacy, though, who took the same amount in reps.)
[/quote]

Facts? you mean those things you keep talking about that continuously get proven wrong? man, just cause you call it a fact doesn't mask the stink of !@#$%^&*.

half the time you get flustered enough knowing you're wrong that you resort to comparing CSN's rep demands with NPOs, which I'm sure in your mind makes CSN look good. However, for the rest of us, spraying rose-scented freshener after you took a !@#$ on the bathroom floor doesn't make the turd disappear. It just makes it smell like you !@#$ in a rose-bush.

That's what CSN is; a turd hiding in the rose bush that is the old hegemony.

[XRCatD]

Gl rebuilding DT.

[Neuronia]

In other news, LoSS and Dark Templar gained a combined total of 220K NS today. In comparison, CSN dropped another 40K.

I think Karma (no, not that Karma) is blowing up CSN's infra. Well, what infra they had left anyway.

[xR1 Fatal Instinct]

[quote]
I fight for the unconventional
My right and it's unconditional
I can only be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isn't the way just to be a martyr
I can't walk alone any longer
I fight for the ones who can't fight
And if I lose at least I've tried[/quote]

o/ peace

Edited March 2, 2011 by xR1 Fatal Instinct

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1299028631' post='2648907']
Then surely fate will judge us accordingly should that time come and we will be unsurprised. As Mark Twain wrote, "History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme." No one is exempt from karma and I wouldn't expect (or conclude) that CSN is any different. Personally, as its Minister of Foreign Affairs, I have an uphill battle (perhaps it's more to the liking of trying to run up the cliff-face of a canyon) ahead. We will see, in good time, what happens, but I am damned sure that something was learned by everyone (the peanut gallery included). Whether you learned that CSN is a greedy lot, or extortionists, or bullies, or opportunists, or bellicose fear mongers, or whatever group of adjectives you feel needs to be brought together, I can only say that I do hope that, in some way, that will be softened out in the long term.

[b]If not, then I understand and accept that as all are entitled to their opinions. But what you will not see is any apology from me or anyone else from CSN so if that is what you are looking forward to, don't hold your breath. Mistakes were made, egos clashed, tempers flared, and events beyond any party's control played rather crucial factors in both the time line and context of the negotiations.[/b]

DT and LoSS fought the hard fight. DT dished out a disproportionate amount of damage and remained steadfast to their convictions while LoSS opted to stay in the ring after TIO was granted peace. I can only be grateful that Legacy and RnR, along with our other friends and allies, stuck by us, despite us being (seemingly) the most immoral alliance this war.
[/quote]

Apologies are generally better accepted than excuses. Just a tid bit that may help in your future endeavor...

Congrats DT.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='King Penchuk' timestamp='1299031850' post='2649023']
Wow CSN, you are greedy beyond comprehension. You are next on the list to be rolled.
[/quote]

This was covered in the other thread; greed had nothing to do with it. If we were "greedy" wouldn't we have saved our pixels and just given the white peace originally? Or taken the 40k when they countered? If you think greed was in any way a factor, you are a moron.

And let's just get a few things straight, from my view.

40k tech from their nations of 2k or more tech was pretty bad. Was I a fan of the reps? Not really, no. I would have went with white peace but I wasn't as vocal about it as I should have been. I learned my lesson on that. Now, obviously once the offer was made and everything was public, there was no way we were backing down. You wouldn't either. If you say "Yes I would," then you're a liar.

We didn't negotiate as "properly" as we could or should have or something. The leaving without notification is surely something I'll never do again after seeing how it can be spun by an overly stubborn alliance. Now, Liz telling them "$%&@ you" wasn't a big deal to me; the white peace + apology offer after what's been going on was insulting. (Note: I wouldn't have been upset if they told us that after our original offer, either.)

So we were wrong to back out with no warning. OK. We went back after talking with their ally who asked us to accept their offer. Since the norm is the party accepting reps doesn't dictate terms, we were surprised to hear the offer was no longer on the table. Like I stated, the counter-offer from them was, in my opinion, absurd (oh yay, hypocrite who offers absurd terms but can't take them! Saved ya the effort on the joke ). The surrendering party doesn't usually write the terms, and since it was their ally we talked to we figured that offer would still be there. I don't understand exactly what changed in the 30 hours between conversations that it can go from being willing to give out 40k tech to white peace + apology. But whatever, we already argued about that for weeks.

Now, DT making everything public was entirely wrong. In my opinion, negotiations stay private. Always, no exceptions. After just a week of war, when you go for peace and get tough reps, it's probably just because the other alliance isn't done with you yet. No need to get all dramatic. Wait a little while, then come back and try again. Making it public guarantees you will get the reps. Had LoSS and DT come to us when Hydra/TIO was peacing out (before reps were offered; had DT waited to come to us instead of bailing), I believe it would have ended with us all agreeing to white peace. After the reps were offered and it went public, there was no chance of that happening.

All the other mumbo-jumbo like someone hacking into our forums and leaking a private discussion while ghosting one of our members accounts (not accusing anyone, just bringing it up because of the timing, so don't say "BUT WE DIDN'T DO IT!!!11!!), constant calling out to our members (both on forums, IRC, and in-game) to revolt, and just all-in-all trying to tear us apart [politically] long term was no help to the cause. It was just furthering our unwillingness to give in to them. Anyone of our members who was against reps said "OK, we'll go along with it", and some of the ones who were originally for them actually wanted us to raise them.

When it gets to the point that alliances can't even talk face to face, you know !@#$'s messed up. So thanks Bud for being the one who could get us to see eye to eye with you being the cage to hold us apart.

Both sides made wrongs. If you think DT was some victim, you are mistaken. If you think CSN is "evil" or a puppet or whatever, you are mistaken. Sad truth of this is both alliances Governments handled it like !@#$ in their own ways. Hopefully the mistakes aren't repeated. I know I'll take steps to make sure we do better next time, not just when someone surrenders to us, either, but in all our future decisions.

And for everyone who says "you're next" or "you're on the list" or some !@#$%^&*, stop talking please. You're blowing air. Eventually? More than likely. Because of this war? No. Next to be taken out? Highly unlikely.

And for the non-believers: Penkala really was trying to get us to not do reps and/or drop them soon(er).

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1299036952' post='2649147']
Facts? you mean those things you keep talking about that continuously get proven wrong? man, just cause you call it a fact doesn't mask the stink of !@#$%^&*.

half the time you get flustered enough knowing you're wrong that you resort to comparing CSN's rep demands with NPOs, which I'm sure in your mind makes CSN look good. However, for the rest of us, spraying rose-scented freshener after you took a !@#$ on the bathroom floor doesn't make the turd disappear. It just makes it smell like you !@#$ in a rose-bush.

That's what CSN is; a turd hiding in the rose bush that is the old hegemony.
[/quote]

Can you produce [i]any[/i] examples of Penkala resorting to comparing these reparations to others taken by NPO in an attempt to make them seem less harsh? If he does it half the time it should be fairly easy.

I mean, just doing a shallow search of Penkala's posts returns no relevant results, and I can't recall such a thing off the top of my head, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you're making completely baseless accusations just for the sake of slinging insults.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Lord Brendan

[Farnsworth]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1299028631' post='2648907']
Then surely fate will judge us accordingly should that time come and we will be unsurprised. As Mark Twain wrote, "History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme." No one is exempt from karma and I wouldn't expect (or conclude) that CSN is any different. Personally, as its Minister of Foreign Affairs, I have an uphill battle (perhaps it's more to the liking of trying to run up the cliff-face of a canyon) ahead. We will see, in good time, what happens, but I am damned sure that something was learned by everyone (the peanut gallery included). Whether you learned that CSN is a greedy lot, or extortionists, or bullies, or opportunists, or bellicose fear mongers, or whatever group of adjectives you feel needs to be brought together, I can only say that I do hope that, in some way, that will be softened out in the long term.

If not, then I understand and accept that as all are entitled to their opinions. But what you will not see is any apology from me or anyone else from CSN so if that is what you are looking forward to, don't hold your breath. Mistakes were made, egos clashed, tempers flared, and events beyond any party's control played rather crucial factors in both the time line and context of the negotiations.

DT and LoSS fought the hard fight. DT dished out a disproportionate amount of damage and remained steadfast to their convictions while LoSS opted to stay in the ring after TIO was granted peace. I can only be grateful that Legacy and RnR, along with our other friends and allies, stuck by us, despite us being (seemingly) the most immoral alliance this war.
[/quote]

It's unclear how much of this you truly mean (especially with the part that reads, "despite us being (seemingly) the most immoral alliance," particularly the seemingly bit). However, the fact that you typed as much is mind-boggling. It strikes me as odd that someone with as much self-awareness as you seem to possess, especially someone in a position of influence, would find CSN's course of actions advisable. Even after mistakes were made and tempers flared, there was opportunity to do the right thing. Unfortunately, CSN did not capitalize on that opportunity.