Will your opinion of Pacifica or Polaris change after this war?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297935441' post='2636565']
To stay out of this war? Declare neutrality. And actually do something to correct your image among people, instead of reinforcing it.
That's what you think, but it ain't true.
[/quote]

You just said power is fickle. If we attempt to change our image.. we simply reinforce it. That's the paradox. Some people are too incompetent to recognize change. Thus the comment about much of the world being fickle.

[quote]
Not everyone agrees on that one too, especially those who didn't fought you back then.
[/quote]

That's because they're EVIL vengevul !@#$%^&* who cannot let it go. We got dealt our judgment they could have participated and did not. Their problem. A 3 year old grudge is petty.

[quote]
I like how you try to demonize everyone who does not agree with you.
Too bad bud, but I find your arrogance to be unfitting for you.
[/quote]

I'm not arrogant...

Where I'm come from if it talks like a duck, waddles like a duck, floats on water like a duck we call it a duck. Likewise, if it's vengeful like evil, hateful like evil, and launches aggressive pre-emptive strikes like evil.. we call it evil. We especially call it evil if it makes a mockery of any religious faith *thumbs over in the direction of alluarchon*. I'm only calling it as I see it. That's not arrogance, that's simply providing the light of truth.

If you don't have the spine to be evil then perhaps you should repent and be not evil? I'm willing to accept your surrender on moral and ethical grounds.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Feuersturm]

[quote]I'm sure NPO is full of pleasant people, the problem is we never see any of them, and when we do we only see them for brief periods before the Old guard returns and reminds of the NPO we remember. You can say (name) doesn't speak for the alliance all you want but when there's only a hand full of active OWF posters it doesn't matter if they are gov or not, that's the public image of your alliance.[/quote]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298006795' post='2637352']
I don't see very many vocal old guard members of the NPO around here, and haven't in probably years. The NPO "old guard" is really, really old and half of them aren't in the game anymore and a lot that are aren't in NPO anymore.

Regardless of who has been posting under the NPO banner these last years, to say that they've been showing the same old attitude as the NPO used to is to just be blatantly ignorant.
[/quote]

*Quietly steps in*

I've been around for 4 and a half years in the NPO. I might not count as the 'old guard', but I've been around long enough to see shifts in attitude personally. I treat every single person that wars with me with respect, I try my best to fight in a civil manner. Some attitudes towards us, however, never changed - even after 4 and a half years. If people claim our alliance can't get over stuff, take a real nice look in the mirror.

[quote]But they made it clear that they weren't over Karma, and were still fighting the propaganda battle over Karma by constantly beating the drum beat of "you are as bad or worse than we were!"[/quote]

We kind of had to...the propaganda war against us never stopped, so why would ours have? To let negative propaganda against us go without any counter is silly.


I myself don't post in here too much because of the constant bashing that goes on - not to mention the absolutely stupid arguments people make. Sometimes its enough to cause a headache, trying to wrap my head around some of the logic. Both sides have this problem (I've seen some people in my own alliance have some pretty....weak moments?) - but at the same time many people take the worst and apply it to an entire alliance. A shame LUE is not still around, I liked alot of the people I fought in those wars. Whereas most of the people I fought in that war were civil in our conversations, I've only had one in this war respond in a civil manner.

Too much hate now compared to the years before. We would have been fine sitting in our corner of the woods eating popcorn . But now my popcorn is green and glowing

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Feuersturm' timestamp='1298008942' post='2637398']
*Quietly steps in*

I've been around for 4 and a half years in the NPO. I might not count as the 'old guard', but I've been around long enough to see shifts in attitude personally. I treat every single person that wars with me with respect, I try my best to fight in a civil manner. Some attitudes towards us, however, never changed - even after 4 and a half years. If people claim our alliance can't get over stuff, take a real nice look in the mirror.



We kind of had to...the propaganda war against us never stopped, so why would ours have? To let negative propaganda against us go without any counter is silly.


I myself don't post in here too much because of the constant bashing that goes on - not to mention the absolutely stupid arguments people make. Sometimes its enough to cause a headache, trying to wrap my head around some of the logic. Both sides have this problem (I've seen some people in my own alliance have some pretty....weak moments?) - but at the same time many people take the worst and apply it to an entire alliance. A shame LUE is not still around, I liked alot of the people I fought in those wars. Whereas most of the people I fought in that war were civil in our conversations, I've only had one in this war respond in a civil manner.

Too much hate now compared to the years before. We would have been fine sitting in our corner of the woods eating popcorn . But now my popcorn is green and glowing
[/quote]

See See! One of the elusive pleasant people!

But Seriously.

[quote]We kind of had to...the propaganda war against us never stopped, so why would ours have? To let negative propaganda against us go without any counter is silly.[/quote]

In a mud slinging contest, even if you win you still end up covered in filth.

I yell at people on the OWF cause I find it fun, but I typically don't expect my posts to actually change anybodies mind most of the time, or at least I don't expect anybody to admit it has. You can pretty reliably predetermine what side of a debate somebody will fall on by their political alignment. Counter PR wars usually don't accomplish much unless somebody makes a [i]really[/i] huge blunder. Your allies already have your back, and your enemies would deny that water was wet if admitting it would help your cause. You don't win PR wars on the OWF, you do in the back channels, talking to people as individuals.

I've spent all my time in CN doing FA, and the one thing I've learned is that [i]every[/i] alliance (with the possible exception of those micros small enough to lack diversity) will have people you like it in, even the alliances you hate will have [i]people[/i] you like. People are easy to relate to [i]alliances[/i] on the other hand are followed around everywhere by their reputation and their histories.

Final note, I fully realize that the truely old guard of NPO is long gone, I think it'd be a far better alliance if they hadn't departed, though that just may be an old timey view where the "Good old days" always looked better even if they really were not. I used the term old guard to refer to any Pacifican posters who are seen commonly enough and post in a style and with an attitude consistent with expected 'typical' public image of the NPO.

Those kinds of posts reinforce the the public image of the 'old' NPO while undermining any attempt to build a new image. You might object that your alliance shouldn't have to remake it self, but unfolding history has shown that not trying to helped get you to this point.

Edited February 18, 2011 by TypoNinja

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297993732' post='2637134']
I can tell you that nobody in TOP really cares. Is that good enough for you?
[/quote]

As good as any other answer. It doesn't reveal much about TOP's character, but that's another story.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298008326' post='2637388']
You just said power is fickle. If we attempt to change our image.. we simply reinforce it. That's the paradox. Some people are too incompetent to recognize change. Thus the comment about much of the world being fickle.
[/quote]
Or... It is not about what [i]you[/i] think of yourself, but what [i]others[/i] think of you.
I know, hard concept, self-reflection...
[quote]
That's because they're EVIL vengevul !@#$%^&* who cannot let it go. We got dealt our judgment they could have participated and did not. Their problem. A 3 year old grudge is petty.
[/quote]
I don't believe Karma was there to deal your judgement, but aside from that, why is it so hard to understand that not everyones grudges may have disappeared with one war?
[quote]
I'm not arrogant...

Where I'm come from if it talks like a duck, waddles like a duck, floats on water like a duck we call it a duck. Likewise, if it's vengeful like evil, hateful like evil, and launches aggressive pre-emptive strikes like evil.. we call it evil. We especially call it evil if it makes a mockery of any religious faith *thumbs over in the direction of alluarchon*. I'm only calling it as I see it. That's not arrogance, that's simply providing the light of truth.

If you don't have the spine to be evil then perhaps you should repent and be not evil? I'm willing to accept your surrender on moral and ethical grounds.
[/quote]
Surrender? No.
What you are doing is dividing the world in two extremes, those being 'good' and 'evil'. And ofcourse, your opponents are deemed 'evil' and you yourself are 'good', how convenient. But I beg to differ if those actually exist, and if they're not just a construct to attempt to gain sympathy from others and provide a justification for yourself.
In your mind, the 'good' has to overcome the 'evil', and if needed by all means necessary right?
The results of your ideology will be desastrous, because your diabolization of the world will lead you to see those who you deem 'evil' as less than human, which means a justification that your opponents can be treated differently also. Therefore I don't expect justice to come from you, because according to you there is only one absolute, holy truth, which makes that you will deny other views on morality and justice besides your own perverted sense of it.
There is thus nothing moral about dividing the world into two extremes, rather morality is nothing more then a political tool in order to try legitimize your own behavior and discredit or even demonize your opponent.

[Iceknave]

Mm, my view is similar to that of Feuersturm, only probably a bit more extreme.

Most of the time, it's more stressful than fun reading/writing/debating on the CN main forums, especially when it's basically a given that most (not all, but most) people are of the thought if you're NPO and posting as a member of that alliance, your views are automatically worth less in any argument or discussion involving the NPO, even if the argument/discussion is constructed well. This, at times, makes it VERY hard to keep it civil and not let it spiral out of control. Therefore, for me personally, it's less stressful to just stay out of the CN main forums most of the time, visiting occasionally to rarely, but not posting anywhere near as much.

Unfortunately, this has its own set of problems. By not posting, the viewpoints more likely to be seen are those with the stomach to deal with the enormous amount of bellyaching, whining, illogical arguments, etc. that almost invariably get drawn in on any discussion of the NPO and these viewpoints will tend to be those that are more vocal, more willing to go flame for flame, less willing to accept alternative viewpoints, etc.

The perspective of the CN main forum as being a place for anybody to post a viewpoint is not really there. It's an uncomfortable place to be for some NPO members.

Even just posting at times on the CN main forums, makes me feel uneasy due to the extremely high potential for misunderstanding, implied meanings when there is no intention of such, political double/triple/quadruple talk, etc.

[quote]After Karma a lot of people would revert to a fairly neutral default.[/quote]
I disagree with your statement above, Typoninja. Some people/alliances, even after Karma would hold onto the grudge. Not everybody was satisfied with the results of Karma. The end result was a grudging compromise and I'm pretty sure some of the alliances, even having accepted the compromise were not entirely satisfied. Not everybody got their "pound of flesh" so to speak. I'm not going to rehash some of the arguments already used by other members of the NPO already regarding our FA as it's been covered in some depth already, but it is an uphill battle to regain any political capital when any action (even inaction) is treated as suspicious and a possible grab for power.

[Heft]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1298029249' post='2637503']
Or... It is not about what [i]you[/i] think of yourself, but what [i]others[/i] think of you.
I know, hard concept, self-reflection...
[/quote]
NPO changed everything about how they behaved, from top to bottom, and now they've been attacked because they didn't "do enough" or people just don't believe their change. Are you going to deride them for being frustrated that after so long a time of being more or less good and "behaving" that they're now being told "nope, you never really changed, it's not good enough, we still don't like you and we still want to attack you?"

NPO members have every right to be pissed off at the moment, and quite frankly the fact that they aren't just blanket-trolling everyone on these boards after the !@#$ that's been pulled on them is itself a testament to them. The blaming-the-victim posts that they're having to deal with now constitute some of the most asinine and absurd criticisms of an alliance I've seen in a long time. This war isn't their fault, and there is no reasonable argument that can make it their fault, no matter how hard people keep trying here.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298074405' post='2637862']
NPO changed everything about how they behaved, from top to bottom, and now they've been attacked because they didn't "do enough" or people just don't believe their change. Are you going to deride them for being frustrated that after so long a time of being more or less good and "behaving" that they're now being told "nope, you never really changed, it's not good enough, we still don't like you and we still want to attack you?"

NPO members have every right to be pissed off at the moment, and quite frankly the fact that they aren't just blanket-trolling everyone on these boards after the !@#$ that's been pulled on them is itself a testament to them. The blaming-the-victim posts that they're having to deal with now constitute some of the most asinine and absurd criticisms of an alliance I've seen in a long time. This war isn't their fault, and there is no reasonable argument that can make it their fault, no matter how hard people keep trying here.
[/quote]

honestly if its as ive been reading and its a war just for fun and everyone ends with white peace then i wouldnt care at all about being attacked. but if it ends with terms more than white peace then i might be a little more upset.

id give it some time if i were them to decide whether or not to be pissed

[D34th]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1298002570' post='2637277']
Aye. Polaris coming in to keep us out of peace mode was a problem, too.
[/quote]

Evil Polaris

[Monster]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298074405' post='2637862']
NPO changed everything about how they behaved, from top to bottom, and now they've been attacked because they didn't "do enough" or people just don't believe their change. Are you going to deride them for being frustrated that after so long a time of being more or less good and "behaving" that they're now being told "nope, you never really changed, it's not good enough, we still don't like you and we still want to attack you?"

NPO members have every right to be pissed off at the moment, and quite frankly the fact that they aren't just blanket-trolling everyone on these boards after the !@#$ that's been pulled on them is itself a testament to them. The blaming-the-victim posts that they're having to deal with now constitute some of the most asinine and absurd criticisms of an alliance I've seen in a long time. This war isn't their fault, and there is no reasonable argument that can make it their fault, no matter how hard people keep trying here.
[/quote]

Not true. They were just as boisterous as ever on these forums. I mean in addition, you and the NPO did make a conscious decision to pursue a specific FA trajectory. That FA trajectory is the strategic reason for why the war on NPO is taking place now. Crymson explained in detail why this was necessary. Well, you could have helped Hydra and thrown a huge curveball but that didn't fit into your overall plan. There was no "we were just minding our own business, we just want be left alone" going on. The pre-empt could have been on NSO if you were NPO's size. So ultimately, Heft, are you going to deny you had any stake in Polaris-VE?

Edited February 19, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Haflinger]

Just as boisterous as ever on these forums?

Look, one of the biggest criticisms of the old NPO was that they issued a lot of posting bans on their members. This was viewed as a draconian effort to keep their people in line.

Now they lift that policy, allow their members to post their opinions on a regular basis, and somehow this is twisted as showing that they haven't changed when in fact it's a direct reversal of their old policy?

Let's not even get into the whole "Sir Paul proves the NPO has not changed." Sir Paul's posts are unlike any pre-Karma NPO official posts of any kind. You go back before Karma and find me some examples of NPO using humour to get its point across.

There aren't any.

[Zero-One]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1298097429' post='2638171']
Evil Polaris
[/quote]

Aye, they're like ankle biters. They do little damage, but sure was annoying as @%#@$

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1298134950' post='2638457']
Just as boisterous as ever on these forums?

Look, one of the biggest criticisms of the old NPO was that they issued a lot of posting bans on their members. This was viewed as a draconian effort to keep their people in line.

Now they lift that policy, allow their members to post their opinions on a regular basis, and somehow this is twisted as showing that they haven't changed when in fact it's a direct reversal of their old policy?

Let's not even get into the whole "Sir Paul proves the NPO has not changed." Sir Paul's posts are unlike any pre-Karma NPO official posts of any kind. You go back before Karma and find me some examples of NPO using humour to get its point across.

There aren't any.
[/quote]

There aren't any now either...

Oh wait, you think sir paul is funny! How sad for you.

[Haflinger]

You can argue about whether Sir Paul is successful. Personally, I find him to be mildly funny, better than stuff like the recent GOONation posting but nowhere near the classics like Trashcat.

However, this still doesn't really have anything to do with what I said. He's using humour, successfully or otherwise, which is not something NPO did before.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1297995431' post='2637161']
That's not actually true.

IRON was hit by a bandwagoner during Bipolar, so all of IRON's direct allies were forced to defend them if they were able.
[/quote]

Allies were released of obligations resulting due to our attacks. It is what it is man. You may take it however you want or even make a new one out of it. Regards.

Edited February 19, 2011 by shahenshah

[D34th]

[quote name='Zero-One' timestamp='1298140119' post='2638499']
Aye, they're like ankle biters. They do little damage, but sure was annoying as @%#@$
[/quote]

Yeah I remember how little damage I've done, poor me.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1298150788' post='2638613']
nowhere near the classics like Trashcat.
[/quote]
The disappearance of Trashcat's corner is the greatest tragedy of Karma.

[Scorponok]

Absolutely not, still awesome!

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1298105186' post='2638276']
Not true. They were just as boisterous as ever on these forums. I mean in addition, you and the NPO did make a conscious decision to pursue a specific FA trajectory. That FA trajectory is the strategic reason for why the war on NPO is taking place now. Crymson explained in detail why this was necessary. Well, you could have helped Hydra and thrown a huge curveball but that didn't fit into your overall plan. There was no "we were just minding our own business, we just want be left alone" going on. The pre-empt could have been on NSO if you were NPO's size. So ultimately, Heft, are you going to deny you had any stake in Polaris-VE?
[/quote]

Say what you want, the NSO didn't really want to fight this war, but you see from the beginning this has been an obvious snipe at attacking all of the Orders, regardless of reason. VE's CB against Polar was non-existent (i.e. you looked at screenshots that we made to set you up!), and Doomhouse's attack on NPO was because they were not in war yet on NpO's side. Of course the funniest part about it is the blatant hypocrisy of VE using the NPO's Karma CB on steroids (meaning, no peace negotiations at all, and the intentional set-up) and of MK pre-empting after whining for months about being pre-empted by TOP/Duckroll.

What was our stake in Polaris-VE? Well, when you have 80% of the aggressors on the VE side wanting to see our extermination, and with 80% of the people we call friends and allies on Polar's side, the choice should be more than obvious. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out, perhaps a 7th grader.

[Finch]

My opinion on Polaris is that its amazing and has awesome people despite what others think. MY opinion on Pacific wont change at all as it is already as low as it can get.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1297211116' post='2626214']
True enough. I wondered whether to write more on NPO's crimes but decided that it was unnecessary because there's a general consensus that NPO were dicks.
[/quote]
I must be feeling emo for reading this damn thread :|

Anyway. you used the term "were evil" to describe them. i see a distinct lack of crimes committed after Karma. all i see is 3 year old butthurt

[Bob Janova]

Hm, I missed a few responses in this thread a few days ago directly addressed to me. I think the thread's moved on enough that it isn't really relevant to respond to them now, but if you still want an answer, post again, PM me or grab me on IRC.

A couple of general points from the last few pages:
- NPO going neutral is a hilarious idea but it would never have worked. An NPO with no treaty ties might well have been attacked for nothing much sooner than it actually was, as the treaties it did re-sign tied in enough of the web that a direct attack would not have been a good idea.
- Regarding the Seth incident, he was a deputy secretary of state and did nothing in NPO boards that he didn't do in several others (introduce himself and post boilerplate diplomatic material). At no point was he the primary diplomat to NPO (I think that was Shrike at the time).
- Yes, NPO are in this position because they didn't stop enough people from hating them. A lot of people who are not directly involved are saying 'this isn't right but eh, it's NPO, I don't care that much' – good diplomacy over the last two years could have avoided that. Umbrella and (new) GOONS have no historic reason to hate you, it shouldn't have been that hard to have good enough relations that they didn't want to hit you for no reason.
- This isn't the thread for it but our CB was not the same as NPO's in Karma. But please take that argument to one of the many threads about it .

Haflinger, I'm fairly sure that Taboid Tribunes started before Karma, or something similar posted by Paul that was a propaganda piece, at least.

[Locke]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1298166529' post='2638846']
Haflinger, I'm fairly sure that Taboid Tribunes started before Karma, or something similar posted by Paul that was a propaganda piece, at least.
[/quote]
The first Bobian TT was made on [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=61489"]June 24, 2009[/url]. I can vaguely recall another propaganda piece being posted by Lord of Destruction many moons ago, but that was in nowhere near the same style as the Tribune and was closer to (and may have been, my memory's faded) PNN.

[Heft]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1298134950' post='2638457']
Let's not even get into the whole "Sir Paul proves the NPO has not changed." Sir Paul's posts are unlike any pre-Karma NPO official posts of any kind. You go back before Karma and find me some examples of NPO using humour to get its point across.

There aren't any.
[/quote]
You are not true until proven false?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1298029249' post='2637503']
Or... It is not about what [i]you[/i] think of yourself, but what [i]others[/i] think of you.
I know, hard concept, self-reflection...
[/quote]

Not really. I do it a lot. I'm perfectly at peace with myself.

[quote]
I don't believe Karma was there to deal your judgement, but aside from that, why is it so hard to understand that not everyones grudges may have disappeared with one war?
[/quote]

Then, as I said, they missed their chance. A 3 year grudge is still a 3 year grudge and still petty and if one has not sought compensation and stood up for themselves in that bank of time.. especially when opportunities have repeatedly presented themselves.. then there is something wrong with the one holding the grudge.

[quote]
Surrender? No.
What you are doing is dividing the world in two extremes, those being 'good' and 'evil'. And ofcourse, your opponents are deemed 'evil' and you yourself are 'good', how convenient. But I beg to differ if those actually exist, and if they're not just a construct to attempt to gain sympathy from others and provide a justification for yourself.
In your mind, the 'good' has to overcome the 'evil', and if needed by all means necessary right?
The results of your ideology will be desastrous, because your diabolization of the world will lead you to see those who you deem 'evil' as less than human, which means a justification that your opponents can be treated differently also. Therefore I don't expect justice to come from you, because according to you there is only one absolute, holy truth, which makes that you will deny other views on morality and justice besides your own perverted sense of it.
There is thus nothing moral about dividing the world into two extremes, rather morality is nothing more then a political tool in order to try legitimize your own behavior and discredit or even demonize your opponent.
[/quote]

There are two extremes. Good and evil do exist. Good and evil are, as I have said before, defined in multiple faiths, cultures, and to some degree the rule of law among nations. The result of my ideology will not be disastrous because I am in the right. I do not see those who have committed evil as less than Human. Rather, I see Evil as a fundamental trait of the bulk of humanity that must be overcome by all.

If you do not expect justice from me, then you do not know me.

There is not one absolute and holy truth, but there is a collective truth and the bulk agree with me. I do not use my own definition of morality and justice, rather I appeal to a much larger definition drawn from multiple faiths and cultures which is pure and not able to be perverted because it is documented and in doctrine and the moment I abbreviate from it I am no longer a part of that system.

There is, as you have said, no morality about dividing the world into two extremes. Which is why I condemn Doomhouse and the aggressors in this war for doing just that. They divided the world into two extremes and caused those extremes to raise arms against each other. You call my perspective upon morality a political tool, but it is not, it is simply.. again, giving light to the truth.

I do appreciate that you contest me for many of your peers seem not to respond to me and in doing so, I am left without anyone to refine and sharpen the points of my perspective upon. I appreciate that you are providing that contrast.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex