Will your opinion of Pacifica or Polaris change after this war?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297736569' post='2633767']
The problem stemmed from our disparate views of the war. To VE Karma was nearly a year gone by that time, and most of us viewed it as a settling of debts. We may not like you, but no more grudge either. A (relatively) clean slate.

Seth was the Deputy Secretary of State by then, nearly a year had passed, its his [i]job[/i] to do things like insure our embassies have things like up to date government and treaty lists. Why shouldn't he go?

To the NPO however they had been paying reps for that last year so Karma was still very fresh in their memories. Forgetting that disconnect was an error, but it showed us something important as well. It showed us how your alliance felt instead of what your leaders were saying.[/quote]

Indeed. Those embassies are readable to all diplomats, I remember reading it at the time and coming to the same conclusion. Just one more example to prove all the talk of change was just that, talk, nothing more. SethB clearly had done nothing to them - their own leaders put them in that position, SethB had only defended himself when forced to. There is no rational reason for them to hold a grudge against him. Yet the moment he made his appearance, they made it abundantly clear that they did, indeed, hold one heck of a grudge against him.

Same old Pacifica, incapable of ever admitting fault. Oh sure they issued a few insincere throw-away lines, "mistakes were made" and that rot, but clearly in their own minds everything bad that had happened to them has always and will always be someone elses fault. They have never been shy about holding grudges, and following through on those grudges as soon as they have the ability. That last attribute is not a bad thing by itself, but when you put it together with the chronic inability to ever recognise their own mistakes, the overwhelming reflex to always place blame on others while exalting their own rulers as infallible and perfect... the phrase "rabid dog" that others have used doesnt seem so far off.

Of course the most exquisite irony of the entire situation is that, while you are here explaining very reasonably and accurately why we would think that of Pacifica, you ignore completely the fact that your own alliance is currently at war with Polar for *precisely* the same spurious reason that Pacifica originally went to war with OV.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297719335' post='2633351']
I have trouble taking you seriously if that is your advice.
[/quote]

That's why it's called an opinion, you don't have to like it, nor take it. Seriously, you all think the path they took was the right one? The minute NPO came out of terms and MDP blitzed with most of the old crowd who'd have them back, they pretty much set every enemy they have on a "roll them they're trying to regroup" mindset worse then it was before. If NPO's mindset was to stay quiet, out of the way, and leave everyone alone, they would of been better off as a declared neutral, then a alliance who ignores/is asked to ignore it's MDPs to try to stay secure. The linking they did did nothing to project an image of neutrality.

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297719844' post='2633369']
Many people said that for them, Karma was not the retribution they were looking for (you yourself actually say it further down). I'm very skeptical that declaring GPA-style neutrality would have given us much protection from those who demanded more blood for our past, political suicide or not. There's many who would have thought that attacking an uninvolved party to drag them into a war for no reason other than "they may be a threat at some point" would be political suicide (many decided that NPO's past actions akin to that were political suicide anyways).[/quote]

Aye, I was just saying what a majority over here think. You'd be surprised to find out just how many people are uneasy with the way you all were attacked. Problem is though, most don't think enough about NPO to really summon an iota of caring, because you haven't really put in the legwork since post Karma to make friends in the new world. You have zero political capital because of that, so anyone who wants to eat the nukes can hit you to their heart's content, and not many are going to say anything about it, and those that do voice displeasure aren't in a position to do anything to halt it. If you were a true neutral, a totally unconnected alliance, who'd put in some serious time mending fences, maybe that'd be drastically different. As for the doctrine discussion, don't get me wrong, it's a very positive change, but I'm just saying you can't get credit for not doing something you couldn't do anymore anyway.

[quote]I'm still not convinced that us going to the members of CnG or SF would be seen as anything other than a pathetic attempt to stay safe until we regained our strength. Maybe it would have, but that's nothing something we'll ever know. I know Angelrick (deserves the o/ imo), but I also know that there was a big influx of 'FA newbies' to other alliances (myself included) to try to improve our image where we could. Again, I think that's one of those 'changes on the inside that aren't very apparently to the rest of Bob'. We realized that there was a big uphill battle on the words front, and went for it.[/quote]

Maybe it would of been taken like that, sure. But if you at least on good speaking terms with both, you wouldn't of had people just itching to jump you again, or maybe you would have developed enough folks who wanted to give you another chance that they could of run interference for you, like we did recently with Polar. I'm not saying run out and beg, hell Polar declared war on us not too long ago. We were sticking up for them, and peeving some of our best friends off, and had a chunk of the world thinking we'd declare war for them, based off just some time spent conversing, and some FA work both our alliances put in. Keep in mind Polar is the alliance we built our entire alliance's military on defending from their imminent attack, so it's not like we had any working relationship there to start with but outright hostility.

Just some simple talking without hostility goes a very, very long way, and it's something that you all have always had major issues doing. You were making massive strides with the effort directed at us, with only a bit of effort and some blunt conversations to clear the air. I can't help but think after this is over, if you get on that track immediately, instead of waiting 2 years like you did before, that your future will be very different, and you can change people's opinions of you.

[quote]I wasn't there on your forums where this was discussed, so I won't pretend I can speak to this at all.
[/quote]

I'm not speaking of our embassy, I'm speaking of the entire persona you all have projected in a majority of your discussions here. Typo goes more into depth of what we observe, so just read his post.

[Baldr]

The most amusing part of this thread, and the current war, is the implication that NPO and NpO are buddies that roll together.

That was true at one time. But that time was, oh, maybe four years ago.

I also find it amusing that SethB is sent to the NPO forums and people act surprised that NPO doesn't like him, and then pretends that hating on SethB is the same as hating VE and their allies. You have to completely ignore SethB's history to do that.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297751343' post='2634208']
I also find it amusing that SethB is sent to the NPO forums and people act surprised that NPO doesn't like him, and then pretends that hating on SethB is the same as hating VE and their allies. You have to completely ignore SethB's history to do that.
[/quote]

The grudge I'll give em. The fact NPO doesn't like Seth shouldn't surprise anybody, but the sheer scale. Holy Crap man, You had to see it to believe it.

Also you seem to be under the misconception that the hate poured forth was limited to Seth's person. It was not.

You also seem to have missed the fact that the target of the rage was less important than its existence. It represented a complete 180 from what NPO gov had been telling us until that point. The fact that that kind of grudge and rage were there just served to prove that there was no change, only a biding of time. A waiting for a chance to satisfy that grudge.

Edit: I'd like to reiterate for those who were not lucky enough to witness it themselves. The scale of the reaction was unprecedented, it would be nearly impossible to overstate the amount of hate and rage poured forth. If sheer invective could kill CN wouldn't need nukes. Characterizing NPO's reactions as 'upset' would be akin to saying its kind of warm in hell.

Edited February 15, 2011 by TypoNinja

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297753463' post='2634245']
The grudge I'll give em. The fact NPO doesn't like Seth shouldn't surprise anybody, but the sheer scale. Holy Crap man, You had to see it to believe it.

Also you seem to be under the misconception that the hate poured forth was limited to Seth's person. It was not.

You also seem to have missed the fact that the target of the rage was less important than its existence. It represented a complete 180 from what NPO gov had been telling us until that point. The fact that that kind of grudge and rage were there just served to prove that there was no change, only a biding of time. A waiting for a chance to satisfy that grudge.

Edit: I'd like to reiterate for those who were not lucky enough to witness it themselves. The scale of the reaction was unprecedented, it would be nearly impossible to overstate the amount of hate and rage poured forth. If sheer invective could kill CN wouldn't need nukes. Characterizing NPO's reactions as 'upset' would be akin to saying its kind of warm in hell.
[/quote]

So I assume you think a pre-emptive war fixed that?

Brilliant logic.

I consider myself generally neutral towards all alliances. I don't really have any I hate and there are a few I like. You can't expect people to go from hating you to loving you over night. In fact its' much easier to go in the other direction.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297753867' post='2634252']
So I assume you think a pre-emptive war fixed that?

Brilliant logic.
[/quote]

I didn't launch the attack on you, so I don't see why you'd blame me for it.

I was detailing what had happened to reset your potential clean slate with VE to a state of unfriendliness again, and how it was symptomatic of the problems that have prevented NPO from successfully pushing any public impression of change.

It is in fact part of the reason you've been jumped now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason this war is working is because the Orders are just that unpopular. No one cares to come to your aid even if you are the wronged party. A significant amount of the criticism not coming from your direct allies is ended with some variation of the theme "but I really don't like (insert Order here) so nuke away!"

Your inability to change your public image, has lead you here. Had you been able to push forward with some kind of FA, any kind at all, that didn't involve signing up with all the usual suspects you likely could have avoided your current predicament.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I hope you have misjudged the world, because if you haven't, the world in bulk is blind.

No one appears to think that an increased isolation is a symptom of change.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297754364' post='2634258']
No one appears to think that an increased isolation is a symptom of change.
[/quote]

Your own leaders would disagree with you. I've been told you all didn't need to claim neutrality, but you were actually neutral, despite MDPing it up. I'm fairly sure it's been said in this very thread, that you all wanted to be left totally alone and not bothered, and that showed you changed. So your own alliance's goal to show it had changed was to be isolated.

[Monster]

Well, I think the idea that they just wanted to be left alone isn't the case at all. It works when they need to use it.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

What would you have preferred. The "old Pacifica which schemed behind your back with the intent of shoving knives in it"? If anything this war is vindicating the old guard, making them appear correct in their statements to those of us who are still yet young to our alliance. It is demonstrating that the world can be and often is more evil than we have been and that if we had not done it, someone else would have.

You expect after we come out of Karma, that we would radically want to make friends of our former foes? No.. we kinda did appreciate being left alone after the imposed looting. Kind of did enjoy the isolation and careful selection of our friends after massive betrayals. How else would you have had us be? Gullible? Quick to act and slow to think?

You will never get that out of Pacifica.

The alliances who were victors in Karma had the opportunity to prove they were benevolent in their intent and they have failed. They had the right to prove they were better than us.. instead they have proven themselves a mirror image, if not worse. They are certainly worse now.. for we have changed.. while they are like dogs having returned to the vomet of 3 years+ ancient politics and warfare.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1297727781' post='2633584']
At the end of the day, I find this entire discussion to be... interesting.

With NPO, I want to like them. Really, I do. And on a personal level, I do. Alot in fact. The burning question though, that needs to be answered from them, is do they REALLY realize the utterly crappy way they treated everyone, sincerely, or do they merely acknowledge it because it seems that in the present political climate, they have to. Do they really mean they would not treat people that way again? Or do they only say that as an assurance, because they can no longer get away with it. I dont know HOW they go about answering it, I wish I had a suggestion there, and I suppose, in the end, that only time will tell.

[/quote]

I will give you a hint, quit trying to justify your actions. No one is buying it.

[Qazzian]

TypoNinja and the others talking on the VE points:

The vitrol that erupted when Sethb showed up was, in a word, surprising. It also came from a handful of our 400 or so members at the time. A very vocal and verbose handful, yes, but to claim that it proves all of Pacifica wanted to kill everything in its path also means that you have to believe everyone on here that posts under their alliance banner is expressing the views of their leadership at all times. If we were to go down that pathway, then yes, the NPO has every right to expect it would be attacked again, regardless of what it did. How many posters talked about not being able to wait for the surprise when we got out of terms? Are we to believe that those vocal members of other alliances represent their leaders' viewpoints?

I can't try to claim some victory from the post with Sethb and the discussion around it. It was a bad move on our part to forget the fact that for you, the war was long over, but for us the wounds were still bleeding. It was even worse to not only forget that, but to react like that. I don't know if I was one of the ones who blasted Sethb when he came to the forums, I honestly cannot remember. I remember getting very angry to see that he was the one who came, but I don't recall if I decided to just walk away or vent. If it was the latter, then I am sorry.

I'm hoping, now that I think of it, that the many threads on the OWF with NPOers talking is helping show some change. During Karma, we were silent. LJ Scott joked in the merchandise thread about us not being in radio silence showing that we had changed, but I think it's a little more than a joke (to some atleast ) that you now have Pacificans, not just the leadership, actively engaging people on the forums.

Rush Sykes:

How can we show that? Surrender to us

Seriously though, I do think it's genuine. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't think so. I've been in Pacifica for two and a half years. I came in shortly after the War of the Coalition was finished. The Pacifica that many people are talking about isn't one that I have ever lived in. I was previously the member of another alliance in 2007, which was rolled out of Bob because we didn't learn the ropes quickly enough to figure out how the world works, and what we were "allowed" to do to protect our own. I've been through disbandment, I've been through massive reparations that put us at a huge disadvantage, and now I'm being put through an unprovoked attack. I would not wish that on anyone.

I will be honest: personally, I think holding FAN in perma-war was a $#&% idea. To the point that if I [i]really[/i] thought that Pacifica would do something like it again, I would be long gone. Instead, I'm here. I know you don't know me, and neither do 99% of the people who will read this, and as such what I'm saying will be viewed with a lens of "Pacifican Propaganda". However, it's the truth. I would not still be wearing the alliance tag, and I would not still be fighting for Pacifica if I thought it would go down the same road.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Qazzian

[Mogar]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1297718322' post='2633324']
How hard was it for them to watch NSO have war brought to it multiple times?
[/quote]
I'm sure Pacifica could name other alliances they were friends with, the point was they were forced to sit on the sidelines and see destruction brought upon their friends, and they're expected to continue to try to be friends with those who are attacking their friends?

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1297720634' post='2633392']
This is not the world we struggled for.

*Sigh* I detest NPO as much as the next guy, but now I'm getting angry.
[/quote]
Your struggle got used by those you put into power, most revolutions tend to have the issue of not being able to control who takes over when you depose the dictator, you can easily end up with another.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1297727781' post='2633584']
At the end of the day, I find this entire discussion to be... interesting.

With NPO, I want to like them. Really, I do. And on a personal level, I do. Alot in fact. The burning question though, that needs to be answered from them, is do they REALLY realize the utterly crappy way they treated everyone, sincerely, or do they merely acknowledge it because it seems that in the present political climate, they have to. Do they really mean they would not treat people that way again? Or do they only say that as an assurance, because they can no longer get away with it. I dont know HOW they go about answering it, I wish I had a suggestion there, and I suppose, in the end, that only time will tell.
[/quote]
Would it really matter if they had a way of proving they would be better than they were? They'd still be seen as a threat to those who control the world today, even if they had no other intentions besides sitting in their corner of the cyberverse with their allies.

[Pondoland]

I wholeheartedly concur with Qazzian’s response.

I’m a relative newbie to both CN and the NPO, but if what I read about our past actions is true, then I would have willingly joined the forces of Karma if I had been around at the time.

But I wasn’t. To be brutally honest – to me all that history means nothing. The NPO of back then is nothing like the NPO you see today – there are many ‘newbies’ within the Order who’d much rather put the past behind them and go forward with the NPO with a clean slate.

That said – if you want someone to apologise for Pacifica’s past mistakes, then as a Pacifican I apologise.

Can we move on now?

As for our perceived arrogance – yes, we do hold ourselves aloof in the OWF. Reading the level of trolling, the same old dredging up of the same old historical grievances and the same ‘NPO = evil’ stuff gets tiring after a while. And yes, sometimes we snipe back, despite knowing full well that we shouldn’t.

Conversely, I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how well my couple of nonsense posts have been received by the majority of those who were kind enough to read them. It shows that ‘the other’ isn’t always the rabid troll one fears it is. We might win this war or we might lose it, but whatever happens I hope that our detractors see that their ‘other’ isn’t actually what they fear it is.

Okay – enough of being serious – can I go away and write some more nonsense now?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Pondoland' timestamp='1297784818' post='2634445']
I'm a relative newbie to both CN and the NPO, but if what I read about our past actions is true, then I would have willingly joined the forces of Karma if I had been around at the time.

But I wasn't. To be brutally honest – to me all that history means nothing. [/quote]

You don't get to put on an AA without also putting on it's history. It simply doesn't work that way. If you aren't prepared to put on that history and all that comes with it, you shouldn't put on that AA. It's really as simple as that.

[quote]The NPO of back then is nothing like the NPO you see today – there are many 'newbies' within the Order who'd much rather put the past behind them and go forward with the NPO with a clean slate.[/quote]

Yes, there are many newbies. But they do not rule the alliance, they are not the officers, they are not the emperor. You may well be victims of those who do run the alliance, but on the other side you were not forced to join that alliance, or to stay with it. You may have been ignorant when you first joined, but then again there is a concept of 'due diligence' and if you didn't do yours, harsh as it may sound, that is on you.

[quote]That said – if you want someone to apologise for Pacifica's past mistakes, then as a Pacifican I apologise.[/quote]

Simply mouthing the words like they are a magic formula doesn't work, surely that much is clear by now? There are very deep, very real, very justified grudges here, and insincere formulaïc throw-away apologies only make things worse. If you don't truly feel the need to apologise, if you cannot articulate exactly what you are apologising for, if you don't feel the need to take concrete steps to redress the wrongs that were committed before opening your mouth like that, then you shouldn't bother.

[Daimos]

It is amazing to witness people post in here and point out NPO's pass evils yet they turn a blind eye on the evil that is currently being committed. The reason it is being done to NPO therefore it is ok does not justify the despicable act. Any unbiased person can see that.

The real tragedy in this war is the Mushroom Kingdom. You had the moral highground after the Karma War. You had public support. You had the respect of friends and foes alike. You were basically sitting pretty in this game. To see it so foolishly discarded over vengeance, boredom, over hate, unforgiving. Proves MK is no different than any other alliance. I am sure the wolves in sheep clothing will use this against you to plot your downfall and there is no one to blame but yourselves.

[Doitzel]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297754280' post='2634255']
I didn't launch the attack on you, so I don't see why you'd blame me for it.

I was detailing what had happened to reset your potential clean slate with VE to a state of unfriendliness again, and how it was symptomatic of the problems that have prevented NPO from successfully pushing any public impression of change.

It is in fact part of the reason you've been jumped now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason this war is working is because the Orders are just that unpopular. No one cares to come to your aid even if you are the wronged party. A significant amount of the criticism not coming from your direct allies is ended with some variation of the theme "but I really don't like (insert Order here) so nuke away!"

Your inability to change your public image, has lead you here. Had you been able to push forward with some kind of FA, any kind at all, that didn't involve signing up with all the usual suspects you likely could have avoided your current predicament.
[/quote]
So wait, wait. You're justifying rolling alliances because others simply don't like them?

That is fascinating. I remember the time VE was wiped off the glass like a dead bug simply because certain alliances didn't like them. I remember what an injustice that was, and I remember that the same people that emerged from those ashes are the ones who are now pointing the finger from atop their high horse at NPO and NpO and crying "stop hitting yourself!" That is absolute bollocks and you bloody well know it. You are in the wrong and you don't care simply because you've got the muscle behind you to shield you from the consequences.

It really puts some perspective on all the crap you fed about renouncing your picture on Pacific's mantel. VE never fails to disappoint.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297751343' post='2634208']
The most amusing part of this thread, and the current war, is the implication that NPO and NpO are buddies that roll together.

That was true at one time. But that time was, oh, maybe four years ago.

I also find it amusing that SethB is sent to the NPO forums and people act surprised that NPO doesn't like him, and then pretends that hating on SethB is the same as hating VE and their allies. You have to completely ignore SethB's history to do that.
[/quote]
Seth was doing his job as a part of our alliance, and nothing more. Perhaps you would be wise learning to overcome the crass demands of infrastructure and and technology, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of nation, to embrace the self of group, and the self of alliance. The goals of the group and the greater alliance are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Solaris

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1297778635' post='2634383']
I will give you a hint, quit trying to justify your actions. No one is buying it.
[/quote]

Your hint is pretty dumb. Since I have take no actions against NPO. Just sayin....

[TECUMSEH]

[quote]Once an alliance realizes that they are the permanent target of the powers that be, they cease to think in the narrow frame between the declaration and the surrender. You have given NPO little reason to think they will stop being the enemy if they pay you off with exorbitant reparations, so I don't think you'll get any. It's presumably the same logic that kept FAN from accepting reps the second time around too.[/quote]

Worth repearting. Keep up the good fight NPO. You have no real choice.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1297792648' post='2634521']
So wait, wait. You're justifying rolling alliances because others simply don't like them?

That is fascinating. I remember the time VE was wiped off the glass like a dead bug simply because certain alliances didn't like them. I remember what an injustice that was, and I remember that the same people that emerged from those ashes are the ones who are now pointing the finger from atop their high horse at NPO and NpO and crying "stop hitting yourself!" That is absolute bollocks and you bloody well know it. You are in the wrong and you don't care simply because you've got the muscle behind you to shield you from the consequences.

It really puts some perspective on all the crap you fed about renouncing your picture on Pacific's mantel. VE never fails to disappoint.
[/quote]

And your full of !@#$.

Your trying to put words in my mouth and misrepresenting my point.

I'm saying they are [i]getting[/i] rolled now, not how the fight started, im talking about their losing the fight, they are losing now because they weren't able to make any kind of political outreach beyond the usual suspects. They have no treaty ties that makes anyone think twice, they have no political connections to multiple ends of the web to protect themselves. They are isolated in their own little corner of the web. And they are isolated because they couldn't convince anybody outside their own small circle they were worth the time of day. The image of the bad old NPO persisted, keeping them unpopular and isolated.

I said nothing about approval or disapproval of how the war started, I said why its a losing war for NPO.

I thought you were better than petty shenanigans like that, I'm sad to be wrong.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1297787398' post='2634470']
Simply mouthing the words like they are a magic formula doesn't work, surely that much is clear by now? There are very deep, very real, very justified grudges here, and insincere formulaïc throw-away apologies only make things worse. If you don't truly feel the need to apologise, if you cannot articulate exactly what you are apologising for, if you don't feel the need to take concrete steps to redress the wrongs that were committed before opening your mouth like that, then you shouldn't bother.
[/quote]
what has Pacifica done since Karma to deserve a second beatdown after paying out the largest reps the planet has ever seen(if not more than all other reps ever been taken in the history of the planet combined)?

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='zoskia' timestamp='1297409654' post='2629116']
We are insulting the VE, thus stating the obvious.
FOK are good fighters and iFOK is not bad too (and nice guys actually, most of us have exchanged friendly PMs with them during the war).

The VE are pathetic liars who can't even believe their own lies themselves.
I do expect to see the hate that the VE feels for Polaris getting highly increased after we defeat the VE in this pathetic war that Impero started. It is an honor to be disliked by such a horrible Alliance like the VE (funny, [b]you're losing the battle against Polaris[/b]).

I have a perfect viceroy for the VE, a guy that will REALLY destroy you... his name is Impero Romano.
[/quote]An interesting take on the war....

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297650489' post='2631953']
The opinions of our enemy will not change. They think themselves flawless. Their sanctimony in holding to our past sins as a reason to destroy us when their current sins are a reason to destroy them is naught but hypocrisy. They have no integrity. Their willingness to stab people in the back without a just cause for concern demonstrates this. Their willful ignorance of facts demonstrates this. Do not waste your breath on such garbage Pacificans.
[/quote]
the_reason_for_pacificas_decline.txt

It is talk like this that seals your fate. Were your IOs not a bunch of lazy do-nothings, and you had a willingness to, you know, actually do diplomacy with people that mattered, you could have made real progress in turning your alliance's image around. It is your hubris that is killing you. Well, your hubris and us, now.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1297795473' post='2634556']
what has Pacifica done since Karma to deserve [/quote]

Where did I say they had done anything since Karma to deserve what they are facing? Where has anyone said it?

But Karma didnt give them a clean slate. Karma didn't settle any grudges, except perhaps those of those that faced them directly on the battlefield. FAN didn't get to fight for Karma. Lots of people that DID fight for Karma had to fight on other fronts. All Karma did was remove them from the position they had abused, and thus prevent them from continuing to abuse it. How do you think you get absolution for all past sins simply by being forced from power?

What have they done since Karma to *not* deserve what they are facing? That is the question. And it seems the answer is nothing but refraining from doing the things they no longer had the power to do anyway.

I am not saying I am completely comfortable with what is going on. I have said this before. The DH declaration was poor form, and it's not a precedent I want to see set regardless of the target. But that isnt the only thing to consider. While VE declared on Polaris with clearly nonsensical CB claims and dragged in allies to help (and I am currently defending Polaris myself as a result I will point out) the case for Pacifica is not so clear cut. As I see it, FAN has every right and reason to want a piece of Pacifica. Heck, if I wasnt already occupied I would have been happy to help them myself.

[quote]a second beatdown after paying out the largest reps the planet has ever seen(if not more than all other reps ever been taken in the history of the planet combined)?[/quote]

The reps were large, but in proportion to their ability to pay, were comparable to maybe even a bit less than what GPA paid. Pacifica paid to escape a war [i]they started[/i], while GPA paid to escape a war brought entirely against their will by Pacifica and friends just because they could. And that is only one of several examples of how the NPO asked for what they got So it's hard for me to find any sympathy for Pacifica there at all.