Will your opinion of Pacifica or Polaris change after this war?

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297736569' post='2633767']
And this is how it relates to the topic at hand. You managed to convince all of VE in one instant of rage that the NPO after Karma was no different at all from the NPO before Karma. And I dare say the idea spread from there. NPO itself has declared war in the past for less than what was unleashed at our government in that thread. Going from what we saw from you on our boards to what we saw on your boards erased in hours what good will you had built up over months on ours.
[/quote]
I can understand VE not being happy about what happened in the embassy, but I've always been confused by this reasoning. Why does NPO being pissed off at the appearance of Sethb convince you that nothing had changed since Karma? The reaction to Sethb was a unique reaction to a very specific event where the catalyst of the then current situation was on our doorstep ostensibly as part of a drive to improve relations. It was perceived as a massive slap in the face by VE, and that is why the reaction was so fierce. It wasn't that we'd been sitting there silently raging, waiting to unleash on anyone who dared enter our embassies, and I don't think the NPO was known for that before Karma either. Which is why I wonder how that event is being taken as a continuation of something that had been going on since before Karma.

And no, I'm not in NPO any more, I'm not really trying to argue on their behalf here, it's more to satisfy my own personal curiosity. Also, was it you who called me "the embodiment of the old Pacifican attitude"?

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1297750779' post='2634195']
That's why it's called an opinion, you don't have to like it, nor take it. Seriously, you all think the path they took was the right one? The minute NPO came out of terms and MDP blitzed with most of the old crowd who'd have them back, they pretty much set every enemy they have on a "roll them they're trying to regroup" mindset worse then it was before. If NPO's mindset was to stay quiet, out of the way, and leave everyone alone, they would of been better off as a declared neutral, then a alliance who ignores/is asked to ignore it's MDPs to try to stay secure. The linking they did did nothing to project an image of neutrality.
[/quote]
Well, first of all I don't think Pacifica was ever trying to project an image of neutrality. Minding their own business and staying relatively out of the limelight sure, but not being neutral. Personally I think it's pretty bizarre to expect that any non-neutral alliance is suddenly going to proclaim themselves neutral. And even if Pacifica had decided to do that, I don't think it would have worked as you say. The reason that the neutrality of GPA and the other neutrals is respected is because they have a long history of neutrality and have shown they are committed to and can uphold that neutrality. Pacifica doesn't have that, and furthermore because no-one would believe that the NPO planned to stay neutral forever, it would simply be seen as an attempt to use a proclamation of neutrality as some kind of unilateral global NAP that everyone else is expected to uphold, while NPO hides behind it and builds up until they feel strong enough to return to 'their old ways'. If actually being involved in politics for a year post-terms and doing nothing besides minding their own business and hanging out with their small group of allies wasn't good enough, why would hiding behind sham neutrality be any better?

Also, 'most of the old crowd'? Does anyone actually remember the amount of allies Pacifica had before Karma? Even if you discount those who dropped long held treaties in the few months preceding Karma, 6 is nowhere near approaching the number of allies back then. Signing treaties with a select group of close friends post-terms can hardly been seen as an aggressive or threatening act. I'd hazard a guess and say that each individual member of SF, C&G and now PB hold 6 or more MDP's.

Edited February 15, 2011 by WorldConqueror

[Baldr]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297781617' post='2634401']
How many posters talked about not being able to wait for the surprise when we got out of terms? Are we to believe that those vocal members of other alliances represent their leaders' viewpoints?[/quote]

As you can see, they are attacking you anyway, just as they said they would do. Yes, I think you can assume that both the members and the leaders meant those words.

When they gave "peace", they didn't want to end the war, they wanted to collect the huge reps. Now that they got them, they continue with the war. Eventually, they'll try to get you to pay huge reps again. And if you agree, then once you pay them off, they'll attack you again.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1297797513' post='2634582']
What have they done since Karma to *not* deserve what they are facing?
[/quote]
That's a terrible rationalization. By accepting this logic you could justify nearly anything. What did FAN do to *not* deserve a second rolling? They didn't even send NPO a Christmas card!

-Bama

[Voytek]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1297796930' post='2634574']
the_reason_for_pacificas_decline.txt

It is talk like this that seals your fate. Were your IOs not a bunch of lazy do-nothings, and you had a willingness to, you know, actually do diplomacy with people that mattered, you could have made real progress in turning your alliance's image around. It is your hubris that is killing you. Well, your hubris and us, now.
[/quote]
Hubris, conceit, dogma, pretension... take your pick.

[Baldr]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297795361' post='2634553']
I'm saying they are [i]getting[/i] rolled now, not how the fight started, im talking about their losing the fight, they are losing now because they weren't able to make any kind of political outreach beyond the usual suspects. They have no treaty ties that makes anyone think twice, they have no political connections to multiple ends of the web to protect themselves. They are isolated in their own little corner of the web. And they are isolated because they couldn't convince anybody outside their own small circle they were worth the time of day. [/quote]

It appears to me that outside of old friends, NPO had nobody willing to treaty with them. Those that won the Karma war weren't going to treaty with NPO, they were just waiting for all the reps to be paid off, with plans to roll NPO again once they got the reps.

As soon as the reps were paid off, we've seen multiple occasions of goading NPO, trying to get them into a war so they could be rolled again. Red Raiding Safari, attacking NPO allies, etc. And when that didn't work, then the alliances that had been trying to goad NPO into a war gave up on finding a reason, and just attacked.

I think it's pretty clear that NPO didn't have any choice about getting treaties with the alliances that have now ganged up on them and attacked. Those alliances have been planning this since Karma peace terms were signed, and they sure were not going to treaty NPO. I'm sure those same alliances have been pulling strings to keep other AA's from signing any paper with NPO.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Baldr

[Daimos]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297799932' post='2634608']
As you can see, they are attacking you anyway, just as they said they would do. Yes, I think you can assume that both the members and the leaders meant those words.

When they gave "peace", they didn't want to end the war, they wanted to collect the huge reps. Now that they got them, they continue with the war. Eventually, they'll try to get you to pay huge reps again. And if you agree, then once you pay them off, they'll attack you again.
[/quote]

There will be alot of upset Pacificans if our leadership agree to pay reps for this war. I do not think the leadership in DH expect to get reps either. So expect a very long long war.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Daimos

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297800308' post='2634615']
It appears to me that outside of old friends, NPO had nobody willing to treaty with them. Those that won the Karma war weren't going to treaty with NPO, they were just waiting for all the reps to be paid off, with plans to roll NPO again once they got the reps.

As soon as the reps were paid off, we've seen multiple occasions of goading NPO, trying to get them into a war so they could be rolled again. Red Raiding Safari, attacking NPO allies, etc. And when that didn't work, then the alliances that had been trying to goad NPO into a war gave up on finding a reason, and just attacked.

I think it's pretty clear that NPO didn't have any choice about getting treaties with the alliances that have now ganged up on them and attacked. Those alliances have been planning this since Karma peace terms were signed, and they sure were not going to treaty NPO. I'm sure those same alliances have been pulling strings to keep other AA's from signing any paper with NPO.
[/quote]

Interesting perspective.

For what it's worth, I've never heard anyone at Valhalla complain about outside forces pushing an agenda that would have influenced us in any way not to treaty with NPO. We simply had no desire to do so.

You also have to keep in mind the arc of history in terms of Planet Bob. NPO maintained a solid relationship with NpO, in effect being so close as to constitute a single alliance in actions, for a considerable period of time through mid-2008 when the OoO was canceled. Anyone opposing NPO knew that they not only had to take on NPO and the likes of GOONS, \m/, FAN, GGA, etc., etc. they had to take on NpO and its own collection of allies as well. There was absolutely no way to even approach that and hope to survive the attack. Even after the Initiative broke up, FAN was put down, NPO shed many of its other biggest allies, the task was simply too daunting--indeed, NPO went out and rounded up a whole new batch of allies in Q and NpO of course had BLEU. Unassailable? without question.

As 2008 continued on and the OoO was no more, it finally became possible to take on The Orders as never before. The plan was simple: divide and conquer. The War of the Coalition was the first act of a three act play really. Act 1 - the destruction of BLEU and 1V. Mission accomplished. Not that I blame NPO for still not wanting to have a whole lot to do with NpO, but once Electron Sponge was ejected, there should have been some healing between them and it didn't happen. NPO satisfied itself with beating MK silly and demanding beyond the fringe reparations when they should have been looking longer term. Certainly you could never get NpO members to say much of anything nice about NPO after that. Act 2 - Q disintegrates into factions, removing the last bastions of the fortress. Q as powerful as it was for much the remainder of 2008 broke into bickering factions before the year ended. They couldn't even agree to take out Superfriends when quite clearly SF constituted a clear and present danger. Early 2009 finding members of Q and those who were in Q's sphere of influence willing to put a dagger into NPO's back was all too easy. NPO was vulnerable and what allies it could genuinely count on were too few in number to stop the inevitable. Act 3 - the scourging of Pacifica. Effectively NPO was knocked out of world politics for over a year. They lost more friends, couldn't make new ones. Effectively NPO is now in a position similar to GATO was in 2007-08. Even the possibility of reconciliation with NpO brings down the warhammer.

I hope this war finally bleeds enough people that they can finally genuinely move on to a multipolar world and not a unipolar one that features a variety of whipping boys that get trotted out whenever people are bored--that is a summary of world history in the aftermath of GW III and the post-GW IV eras. Frankly that in and of itself is boring unless you are among the lucky few that are part of those who get to inflict the beatings. Planet Bob doesn't need that that era again.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1297793655' post='2634530']
Seth was doing his job as a part of our alliance, and nothing more. Perhaps you would be wise learning to overcome the crass demands of infrastructure and and technology, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of nation, to embrace the self of group, and the self of alliance. The goals of the group and the greater alliance are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.
[/quote]


LOL, that is like sending Grub over to our embassy after this last war and saying why you mad?!!

Sorry, there is no transcending in this logic. Just B.S. You must have known it was a slap in the face to send Seth there as a diplomat.

[Pondoland]

Apologies for the late reply.
[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1297787398' post='2634470']
You don't get to put on an AA without also putting on it's history. It simply doesn't work that way. If you aren't prepared to put on that history and all that comes with it, you shouldn't put on that AA. It's really as simple as that. [/quote]

Well that's fair enough - when I signed up for the NPO I signed up for the history. But That's just what it is - history. Sorry if that sounds overly dismissive but personally I'm not going to spend my time on CN dwelling on the past.

[quote]Yes, there are many newbies. But they do not rule the alliance, they are not the officers, they are not the emperor. You may well be victims of those who do run the alliance, but on the other side you were not forced to join that alliance, or to stay with it. You may have been ignorant when you first joined, but then again there is a concept of 'due diligence' and if you didn't do yours, harsh as it may sound, that is on you. [/quote]

Correct, we don't run the alliance, but we all have a voice and a say in the running of Pacifica. We certainly don't see ourselves as the 'victims' of a bloodthirsty ruler. If I felt that way, or felt that the NPO leadership was leading me down a path I didn't want to go down (once I had acquainted myself with our history) then I would have left the alliance pretty sharpish. Plus, in the words of the song; 'I believe that newbies are the future.'

[quote]Simply mouthing the words like they are a magic formula doesn't work, surely that much is clear by now? There are very deep, very real, very justified grudges here, and insincere formulaïc throw-away apologies only make things worse. If you don't truly feel the need to apologise, if you cannot articulate exactly what you are apologising for, if you don't feel the need to take concrete steps to redress the wrongs that were committed before opening your mouth like that, then you shouldn't bother.
[/quote]

That much I will concede - I obviously failed to appreciate just how strong and deep-seated these feelings are. In effect I apologise for my apology. Mind you, can I really be the only newbie who fails to appreciate the depth of feeling and, dare I say it, fail to hold the same grudges, be it within or without the NPO?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297800308' post='2634615']
It appears to me that outside of old friends, NPO had nobody willing to treaty with them. Those that won the Karma war weren't going to treaty with NPO, they were just waiting for all the reps to be paid off, with plans to roll NPO again once they got the reps.
[/quote]

This is kind of my point. There was never any outreach (at least successfully) to change this perception in anyone. There was never anything accomplished that changed the public view of NPO as being the enemy. They'd been beaten once but the expectation remained that if they could they'd go right back to business as usual. No outreach, no new friends, no working on downgrading enemies to at least a neutral state.

[quote]
As soon as the reps were paid off, we've seen multiple occasions of goading NPO, trying to get them into a war so they could be rolled again. Red Raiding Safari, attacking NPO allies, etc. And when that didn't work, then the alliances that had been trying to goad NPO into a war gave up on finding a reason, and just attacked.[/quote]

Poking at your opponents on the OWF is a way of life, grow some tougher hide or run and sulk in a corner. NPO has never had issues poking back. Sir Paul still publishes regularly.

[quote]
I think it's pretty clear that NPO didn't have any choice about getting treaties with the alliances that have now ganged up on them and attacked. Those alliances have been planning this since Karma peace terms were signed, and they sure were not going to treaty NPO. I'm sure those same alliances have been pulling strings to keep other AA's from signing any paper with NPO.
[/quote]

Nothing beyond the basic knowledge of the political landscape. This goes back to lack of out reach from NPO. By doing nothing to change their image of "the other side" they limit the amount of people willing to approach them. And I think this is probably the biggest stumbling block from NPO's end in terms of culture. NPO are used to people coming to them, wanting things from them. NPO is now in the position of needing to be the one approaching, wanting things from others. And they aren't very good at it.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1297804162' post='2634649']
LOL, that is like sending Grub over to our embassy after this last war and saying why you mad?!!

Sorry, there is no transcending in this logic. Just B.S. You must have known it was a slap in the face to send Seth there as a diplomat.
[/quote]
No B.S. Send anyone to us, and I will not tolerate barbaric behavior in our embassies, lapse of awareness notwithstanding. If you get too sore for seeing someone, you better deny the mask to your forums, and that can be done respectfully, with a "denied" on a diplomat mask application. I can respect your distaste for certain individuals, and even frowns and other respectful displays of disapproval, but I have zero respect for inappropriate behavioral patterns in the embassy-row.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Solaris

[Monster]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297799932' post='2634608']
As you can see, they are attacking you anyway, just as they said they would do. Yes, I think you can assume that both the members and the leaders meant those words.

When they gave "peace", they didn't want to end the war, they wanted to collect the huge reps. Now that they got them, they continue with the war. Eventually, they'll try to get you to pay huge reps again. And if you agree, then once you pay them off, they'll attack you again.
[/quote]

No one wants reps from NPO. Ability to pay is no concern of anyone's this time around like it was then.

[Roadie]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297753463' post='2634245']
The grudge I'll give em. The fact NPO doesn't like Seth shouldn't surprise anybody, but the sheer scale. Holy Crap man, You had to see it to believe it.

[/quote]

Lets get to reality here. I do think NPO members can get all raging mad a little too easy over Karma and all that, but sending Seth is there was adding insult to injury. It's rich to slap a man while he's down and then say he hasn't changed when he gets mad about.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Pondoland' timestamp='1297804196' post='2634650']
Well that's fair enough - when I signed up for the NPO I signed up for the history. But That's just what it is - history. Sorry if that sounds overly dismissive but personally I'm not going to spend my time on CN dwelling on the past.[/quote]

Nation Created: 10/22/2010 4:34:59 AM (116 days old)

You may feel differently once you have lived through some history yourself. Especially if you have the misfortune to experience the kind of atrocities that many of us have.

[quote]Correct, we don't run the alliance, but we all have a voice and a say in the running of Pacifica. We certainly don't see ourselves as the 'victims' of a bloodthirsty ruler. [/quote]

Naturally you dont see yourselves that way, if the system wasnt pretty good at preventing that it wouldn't have lasted anywhere near this long. Yet, from the outside, you do indeed look like that. Yet, here you are, fighting valiantly against tremendous odds, to defend the alliance from the consequences of its past. To my eye it is tragedy. I feel fairly certain none of your attacker had anything against you personally, but they must strike Pacifica and you have placed yourself as an obstacle, so what can be done?

[quote]Plus, in the words of the song; 'I believe that newbies are the future.'[/quote]

I agree with that too.

You know, most mass-membership alliances close recruitment during wars, out of respect for the newbies, out of the belief that being sucked immediately into a war they had nothing to do with is not the ideal start for a new nation, and also out of the fear that new recruits might be spies. Pacifica, on the other hand, went on their greatest ever recruiting drive during karma. No respect, no concern - and a solid belief that general membership will never see anything worth spying for anyway? I wonder, are you on another recruitment drive at the moment, or has that at least changed?

[quote]Mind you, can I really be the only newbie who fails to appreciate the depth of feeling and, dare I say it, fail to hold the same grudges, be it within or without the NPO?[/quote]

It's my experience that as time goes by, newbies wind up picking up the grudges of whatever alliance they serve in, whether justifiable or not.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1297807334' post='2634698']
You know, most mass-membership alliances close recruitment during wars, out of respect for the newbies, out of the belief that being sucked immediately into a war they had nothing to do with is not the ideal start for a new nation, and also out of the fear that new recruits might be spies. Pacifica, on the other hand, went on their greatest ever recruiting drive during karma. No respect, no concern - and a solid belief that general membership will never see anything worth spying for anyway? I wonder, are you on another recruitment drive at the moment, or has that at least changed?
[/quote]
It's called an applicant amnesty. And, this really made me laugh. You hear that Pacifica, even your recruitment policies are horrible, you monsters! And as I remember it, every applicant was informed there was a global conflict of which NPO was at the centre when they applied during Karma.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297807871' post='2634721']
You hear that Pacifica, even your recruitment policies are horrible, you monsters!
[/quote]

I have to say, I chuckled. XD

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1297806152' post='2634679']
Lets get to reality here. I do think NPO members can get all raging mad a little too easy over Karma and all that, but sending Seth is there was adding insult to injury. It's rich to slap a man while he's down and then say he hasn't changed when he gets mad about.
[/quote]

I never mentioned this fact because it wasn't relevant to the topic and hand but since you bring it up...

There was a 2 day gap between seth arriving and posting the info thread and the, lets call it 'explosion'.

This two day gap was ended by their Leader opening with the negative post that kicked off the explosion.

During those two days of silence NPO gov could have come and talked to us, expressed concern about Seth's presence, sought clarification of why he was there (are we trying to insult them or was it just not thought of, ect). Anything at all expect what they did. Hell they could have deleted the thread outright and then queried somebody saying "anybody but seth" and it would have worked better.

That's why I say the reaction* is more important than who it was aimed at. It showed a lot more than just NPO's grudge on Seth. Waiting two days, without saying a peep to VE in any communication channel, and then going off the deep end. That shows a lot about NPO's thought process. It says lots about their government that they had the time to stop and think and choose that course over any others.


*Lest you miss the distinction, there were at least two reactions there. The Explosion was not the first. NPO choose to remain completely silent for 2 days before their Emperor kicked off the whole show. That makes it a choice as well as a reaction. That is just as significant as the Explosion.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Do I have to repost my response again? Your answers are in my last post.

You cannot compel a friendship. You cannot enforce a mending of hearts and fences. It has to happen on its own and it requires time. Sending such a controversial figure so early, was your own diplomatic blunder. We could have probably gotten over our wounds and Seth's past in due time, but you chose not to allow us that time.

My suggestion would be for you not to allow yourself to become directly engaged in a war with us or our allies if you can prevent it and perhaps if it is truly your goal to mend the fences with us and to be friends that it will happen given the proper room and time to do so. Otherwise, you'll put us into the same trenches we've been in for years. To begin to become a friend you must first prove you will not become an enemy.

I shouldn't have to be giving this kind of advice to a veteran though and I suspect your motives are disingenuous.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297755908' post='2634271']
You expect after we come out of Karma, that we would radically want to make friends of our former foes? No.. we kinda did appreciate being left alone after the imposed looting. Kind of did enjoy the isolation and careful selection of our friends after massive betrayals. How else would you have had us be? Gullible? Quick to act and slow to think?

[b]You will never get that out of Pacifica[/b].[/quote]

No one would suggest you go suck up, but you should have/ and still should, starting right now, set your FA game on 10. You just recently started to reach out before this war, a year to a year and a half too late to make much of a difference. After the beat down you got, you should have sat there and thought about why the whole world suddenly flipped on you, instead of spending a year+ playing the victim card, and then when you did finally reach out wonder why folks thought you were full of it.

[quote]The alliances who were victors in Karma had the opportunity to prove they were benevolent in their intent and they have failed. They had the right to prove they were better than us.. instead they have proven themselves a mirror image, if not worse. They are certainly worse now.. for we have changed.. while they are like dogs having returned to the vomet of 3 years+ ancient politics and warfare.
[/quote]

Why do people take the very small minority of Karma who wanted to white knight, and be all super goody goody as how the whole side was? We got tired of being beat down, we hit back. We didn't hit back to sit and have powwows and campfires with everyone, we fought to play the game how we wanted to, just like you all were doing.


[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297798882' post='2634595']
Well, first of all I don't think Pacifica was ever trying to project an image of neutrality. Minding their own business and staying relatively out of the limelight sure, but not being neutral. Personally I think it's pretty bizarre to expect that any non-neutral alliance is suddenly going to proclaim themselves neutral. And even if Pacifica had decided to do that, I don't think it would have worked as you say. The reason that the neutrality of GPA and the other neutrals is respected is because they have a long history of neutrality and have shown they are committed to and can uphold that neutrality. Pacifica doesn't have that, and furthermore because no-one would believe that the NPO planned to stay neutral forever, it would simply be seen as an attempt to use a proclamation of neutrality as some kind of unilateral global NAP that everyone else is expected to uphold, while NPO hides behind it and builds up until they feel strong enough to return to 'their old ways'. [/quote]

WC, they've flat out said that they were trying to project neutrality, constantly. In our embassy, in most of their posts on here where they play the victim card and insist they want to be left alone, it's even mentioned a few times in here unless I'm wrong. By mdping up, and then withdrawing into themselves so hard and barely talking to anyone, it appears they wanted the cover of neutrality/political isolation, but the option of discarding it and rolling tanks. You just can't have it both ways. You're right, maybe it wouldn't of worked for Pacifica, but they wouldn't know unless they tried. I know if NPO came out of terms, and said... alright we just want to be left alone for awhile to reorganize our alliance from the ground up, no one I know of would of touched them. I've floated the idea to multiple folks, and they all agree it would of shocked them to death to see such a huge beacon of change being shown.

[quote]This is kind of my point. There was never any outreach (at least successfully) to change this perception in anyone. There was never anything accomplished that changed the public view of NPO as being the enemy. They'd been beaten once but the expectation remained that if they could they'd go right back to business as usual. No outreach, no new friends, no working on downgrading enemies to at least a neutral state.[/quote]

I'll be fair to them Typo, they did literally just start it, but way too late, and only after the rumors started that Polar, and probably them, were going to be hit again. They made a lot of headway, but they waited too long, and appeared to only make the effort because they were forced to.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1297813070' post='2634820']
No one would suggest you go suck up, but you should have/ and still should, starting right now, set your FA game on 10. You just recently started to reach out before this war, a year to a year and a half too late to make much of a difference. After the beat down you got, you should have sat there and thought about why the whole world suddenly flipped on you, instead of spending a year+ playing the victim card, and then when you did finally reach out wonder why folks thought you were full of it.
[/quote]

Play victim card? We didn't start doing that til we were made the victims! We were keeping our nose in our own business! I believe this is what people had been fighting for wasn't it?

[quote]
Why do people take the very small minority of Karma who wanted to white knight, and be all super goody goody as how the whole side was? We got tired of being beat down, we hit back. We didn't hit back to sit and have powwows and campfires with everyone, we fought to play the game how we wanted to, just like you all were doing.
[/quote]

And you just gave me my case and point. There was no higher morality in Karma, except in the hearts of a few, it was simply a sham. Many of the alliances who were aligned with you were disingenuous. They were more evil than we.

You fought for what you wanted.. you got what you wanted. Now you and your ilk are simply demonstrating the extreme levels of greed that is endemic to your natures and it will come back to haunt you.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Baldr]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1297802980' post='2634635']
For what it's worth, I've never heard anyone at Valhalla complain about outside forces pushing an agenda that would have influenced us in any way not to treaty with NPO. We simply had no desire to do so.[/quote]

If you had no desire to do treaty with NPO, then there would have been no reason for anyone to try and convince you not to do so. Lack of anyone trying to convince you to do something that you had no intention of doing anyway doesn't go far.

I don't know if it ever happened to any alliance. But I do think that this "Hey, NPO never allied with anyone other than the people that they were already friends with" argument falls flat when most alliances who NPO wasn't already friends with weren't interested in a treaty with NPO. It takes two sides to make a treaty, not just a wish from the NPO.

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1297804980' post='2634667']
No B.S. Send anyone to us, and I will not tolerate barbaric behavior in our embassies, lapse of awareness notwithstanding. If you get too sore for seeing someone, you better deny the mask to your forums, and that can be done respectfully, with a "denied" on a diplomat mask application. I can respect your distaste for certain individuals, and even frowns and other respectful displays of disapproval, but I have zero respect for inappropriate behavioral patterns in the embassy-row.
[/quote]

Pure B.S.

I remember the GUN disbandment thread here on the OWF, with VE members, and VE government, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90232"]trolling the disbandment thread[/url]. So much for your "I will not tolerate barbaric behavior" argument.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1297813070' post='2634820']
No one would suggest you go suck up, but you should have/ and still should, starting right now, set your FA game on 10. You just recently started to reach out before this war, a year to a year and a half too late to make much of a difference. [/quote]

In other words, they started after they paid their reps. And one of the terms of their surrender was to drop all treaties and do no diplomacy, no new treaties, until after the reps were paid.

You're blaming them for following the terms of surrender that they agreed to.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297813584' post='2634835']
Play victim card? We didn't start doing that til we were made the victims! We were keeping our nose in our own business! I believe this is what people had been fighting for wasn't it?
[/quote]
We have established that the NPO isn't a neutral alliance, much like the rest of the existing alliances on Bob.
This makes that you are part of the politics on it, and that you have to look out for the security and well being of your alliance. You have failed to do both.

So a victim? Hardly.
If anything, you've been outmanouvered by others. But part of the reason why you're here can always be traced back to yourself.

As for the 'evil' comment, you cannot truly believe that.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297814312' post='2634851']
We have established that the NPO isn't a neutral alliance, much like the rest of the existing alliances on Bob.
This makes that you are part of the politics on it, and that you have to look out for the security and well being of your alliance. You have failed to do both.

So a victim? Hardly.
If anything, you've been outmanouvered by others. But part of the reason why you're here can always be traced back to yourself.

As for the 'evil' comment, you cannot truly believe that.
[/quote]

Actually, our security and well being seem to be doing just fine thank you. We may not be a neutral alliance, but we have not been as aggressive as we have been historically. Would you prefer we be highly aggressive again and return to our old ways?

We've not been outmaneuvered, we've simply taken the maneuvers that were available. Not all doors are open to us and that isn't necessarily our fault. Other doors would be stupid for us to take.

I'm afraid I do. Hypocrisy, greed, and unwarranted aggression against another party are all forms of evil. It shall not be allowed to stand.

This war shall backfire on the aggressors.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1297813722' post='2634839']
I remember the GUN disbandment thread here on the OWF, with VE members, and VE government, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90232"]trolling the disbandment thread[/url]. So much for your "I will not tolerate barbaric behavior" argument.
[/quote]

So its completely off topic but I'm feeling flippiant so....

Not GUN, just Zynergy.

We aren't allowed to not like people?